Do not buy from beckertime

[Roger1079]

Originally Posted by jvmartin

I am guessing this is your auction here...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ladies-Rolex...-/141391782360

The description lists aftermarket band with original clasp

That sure looks like full disclosure up front to me rather than some attempt to mislead the customer. All you have to do is read the item description which is not fine print that is buried in the listing in a font size nearly impossible to read.

BeckerTime is proud to offer this gorgeous GENUINE ROLEX timepiece. It is a Ladies Rolex Stainless Steel Datejust Date Watch w/White MOP Diamond & Bezel that has been fitted with a brand new custom aftermarket oyster band.

It is in SUPER EXCELLENT CONDITION and comes with the Beckertime 100% lifetime trade-up guarantee!

Don’t let this one get away … Buying a Genuine Rolex with diamonds in this good of condition at this price doesn’t happen often … This type, if all factory, would sell brand new for more than $20,000 today.

The only thing that could be remotely misleading is the first sentence where it specifies Genuine Rolex, but the second sentence makes it clear he is talking about the watch head and not the entire timepiece. This one seems more like the buyer bidding without reading than wrongdoing on the part of Beckertime.

I have never done business with Beckertime, but it seems they are up front about the aftermarket parts and are also quick to make disputes right by the buyer. I really don't see the issue here.

[jvmartin]

Originally Posted by Roger1079

That sure looks like full disclosure up front to me rather than some attempt to mislead the customer. All you have to do is read the item description which is not fine print that is buried in the listing in a font size nearly impossible to read.



The only thing that could be remotely misleading is the first sentence where it specifies Genuine Rolex, but the second sentence makes it clear he is talking about the watch head and not the entire timepiece. This one seems more like the buyer bidding without reading than wrongdoing on the part of Beckertime.

I have never done business with Beckertime, but it seems they are up front about the aftermarket parts and are also quick to make disputes right by the buyer. I really don't see the issue here.

Roger... The current issue is that the clasp was not original as it was stated. Basically, the debate is whether it was an accident by Beckertime or common practice for them to use an aftermarket clasp and try and pass it for original.

[handsfull]

Originally Posted by Roger1079

That sure looks like full disclosure up front to me rather than some attempt to mislead the customer.


The only thing that could be remotely misleading is the first sentence where it specifies Genuine Rolex, but the second sentence makes it clear he is talking about the watch head and not the entire timepiece. This one seems more like the buyer bidding without reading than wrongdoing on the part of Beckertime.
......... I really don't see the issue here.

LOL. Seriously? Are you a shill for Beckertime or what

That description was a CLEAR attempt at wordsmithing/deception with words. Sad. "Genuine Rolex" in one sentence, and then "aftermarket" in the next....if that's not the definition of DOUBLE TALK....I don't know what is.

[Baco Noir]

Becker Time bought TimeKeeperForum.com so you could always take it up with them directly on that site as well - although the site appears to have very little activity these days.

[kooltzar]

Just to clarify a few things:

If any seller says a bracelet is aftermarket, but on the pictures you see it is markedwith a Rolex crown, then it is not aftermarket, but counterfeit!

Any non Rolex part which contains any trademark words or logos is counterfeit!

According to crowncollection who is an expert dial and bezel are a problem as well, than it is fair to say that the seller offered a counterfeit watch for sale.

Any body pointing this out here in the watch out section has the right to do so and should not be blamed by other members just because the seller in question is well known.

I sometimes think people her are biased towards some sellers who are commonly known as reputable or are members of this forum and start to become defensive when someone finds a questionable watch they offer.

[springer]

Originally Posted by kooltzar

Just to clarify a few things:

If any seller says a bracelet is aftermarket, but on the pictures you see it is markedwith a Rolex crown, then it is not aftermarket, but counterfeit!

Any non Rolex part which contains any trademark words or logos is counterfeit!

According to crowncollection who is an expert dial and bezel are a problem as well, than it is fair to say that the seller offered a counterfeit watch for sale.

Any body pointing this out here in the watch out section has the right to do so and should not be blamed by other members just because the seller in question is well known.

I sometimes think people her are biased towards some sellers who are commonly known as reputable or are members of this forum and start to become defensive when someone finds a questionable watch they offer.

I agree with what you wrote, but your assumption is incorrect. The clasp is genuine as noted in the auction and appears genuine. Replacing a stretched bracelet with a genuine clasp is very common. I would not call this bracelet genuine and the seller, beckertime is not calling it genuine. The seller states the clasp is genuine and the bracelet is aftermarket. I see no deception in the listing. With that said, I don't see any violation of trademark law since the clasp is genuine, appears genuine, and the bracelet is listed as aftermarket. There is no trademark or the bracelet links.

[springer]

Originally Posted by springer

I agree with what you wrote, but your assumption is incorrect. The clasp is genuine as noted in the auction and appears genuine. Replacing a stretched bracelet with a genuine clasp is very common. I would not call this bracelet genuine and the seller, beckertime is not calling it genuine. The seller states the clasp is genuine and the bracelet is aftermarket. I see no deception in the listing. With that said, I don't see any violation of trademark law since the clasp is genuine, appears genuine, and the bracelet is listed as aftermarket. There is no trademark or the bracelet links.

The last sentence should read:

There is no trademark on the bracelet links.

[8888]

Originally Posted by kooltzar

Just to clarify a few things:

If any seller says a bracelet is aftermarket, but on the pictures you see it is markedwith a Rolex crown, then it is not aftermarket, but counterfeit!

Any non Rolex part which contains any trademark words or logos is counterfeit!

According to crowncollection who is an expert dial and bezel are a problem as well, than it is fair to say that the seller offered a counterfeit watch for sale.

Any body pointing this out here in the watch out section has the right to do so and should not be blamed by other members just because the seller in question is well known.

I sometimes think people her are biased towards some sellers who are commonly known as reputable or are members of this forum and start to become defensive when someone finds a questionable watch they offer.

good post. I have purchase from beckertime twice. the most recent a 6694. looking at the photos I guessed the dial might have been refinished. it was NOT stated in the description. I messaged them and they told me yes the dial had been refinished. they were perfectly honest but I did have to ask. as always buyer beware. price was right and I am not one who cares the dial is refinished. two very smooth transactions from them and I am very satisfied. I would use them again...

[TimeToGo]

Hopefully you have not left him feedback.

Just open a case through ebay and return the watch. Paypal will reimburse you once they have tracking confirmation that the watch was received. It's that simple.

Sorry about this experience.

I hope you get to stick around the forum and use this great resource before your next purchase...

Good luck

[jvmartin]

He has indeed left him feedback... thats how I found the auction... it's beckertime's most recent negative

[locutus49]

If you buy a Rolex from ebay you should not be surprised if it is fake. Why take such a risk? Yes, there are probably a few genuine Rolexes on ebay, but the number of Frankens and outright fakes is so high, the risk outweighs the savings IMO.

I know there are many ebay defenders on TRF, but just check out the Watchout threads and see where most fakes come from. It is a matter of understanding the risk of buying on auction sites. Why not buy from our TRF sellers or an AD?

[kooltzar]

You are right Springer (I did not read that the clasp was called genuine in this offer) and I would agree, if not crowncollection (David) would have said the dial and bezel are also not genuine.

[crowncollection]

clearly aftermarket crap all over this watch, either way nothing wrong with the add at the end of the day, aftermarket dial and bezel is disclosed, certainly not my cup of tea, but not illegal to refinish an original dial plate, i still call it fake, maybe i should not. aftermarket bezel is ok if you like that sort of thing. The band in my opinion is somewhat trying to be rolex with that fake model number on it, it not a good attempt, but still an attempt by the manufacturer in my opinion to look original and i am sure it came with a fake clasp that has been replaced with this original one. I personally do not condone support of the counterfiet market by buying any of these types of items, that is just my opinion though.

[jvmartin]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

clearly aftermarket crap all over this watch, either way nothing wrong with the add at the end of the day, aftermarket dial and bezel is disclosed, certainly not my cup of tea, but not illegal to refinish an original dial plate, i still call it fake, maybe i should not. aftermarket bezel is ok if you like that sort of thing. The band in my opinion is somewhat trying to be rolex with that fake model number on it, it not a good attempt, but still an attempt by the manufacturer in my opinion to look original and i am sure it came with a fake clasp that has been replaced with this original one. I personally do not condone support of the counterfiet market by buying any of these types of items, that is just my opinion though.

I come across a fair amount of refinished dials and aftermarket bezels on Datejust models. I calculate the bezels have melt and material value (diamonds and gold) but that dials are absolutely worthless... most of this sentiment is based on my assumption that refinished dials were illegal but something that Rolex selectively enforced...

does anyone know the definitive answer to their legality? I understand a refinished aftermarket plate being illegal, but how does a refinished original plate differ in terms of trademark? You are still stamping Rolex's name afterall...

[EbayBuyer]

Thank you all for your post, from both sides.



But i posted a picture of two clasps in my early posts, which one is a real Genuine Rolex clasp?

[kooltzar]

Originally Posted by jvmartin

I come across a fair amount of refinished dials and aftermarket bezels on Datejust models. I calculate the bezels have melt and material value (diamonds and gold) but that dials are absolutely worthless... most of this sentiment is based on my assumption that refinished dials were illegal but something that Rolex selectively enforced...

does anyone know the definitive answer to their legality? I understand a refinished aftermarket plate being illegal, but how does a refinished original plate differ in terms of trademark? You are still stamping Rolex's name afterall...

A refinished dial on original plate is fake in case the markings related to the Trademark have also be redone.

[EbayBuyer]

Also to note, the seller lied on his feedback reply. My dispute was never over the bracelet being aftermarket, i knew this upon purchase.

My dispute was how the aftermarket band had markings on it that mimic a Rolex band and also the seller stated the clasp is a real Genuine Rolex and I highly disagree, so case in point, my opinion is the seller deliberately 100% sold a counterfeit to me so whether he 100% gave me a refund or even sent flowers and card with it… he still deserves negative feedback!


I agree it is not worth the risk on Ebay, the only nice thing is Paypal and Ebay back you so there is comfort there but still not worth the hassel.

I don’t know if your aloud to on here but can anyone recommend a reputable used Rolex seller, ones that sells 100% genuine Rolex’s?

[EbayBuyer]

springer

what picture are you looking and declaring the clasp Genuine? I attached a picture of TWO different clasps to this thread. Which one of these is Genuine?

[locutus49]

There are several trusted sellers on this site that sell used. Please check the F/S section. Also, you could check Chrono24, which has various sellers, some with reliable histories. I have not bought from Chrono24 and mainly use it to check prices. I would try the sellers on TRF first.

Originally Posted by EbayBuyer

Also to note, the seller lied on his feedback reply. My dispute was never over the bracelet being aftermarket, i knew this upon purchase.

My dispute was how the aftermarket band had markings on it that mimic a Rolex band and also the seller stated the clasp is a real Genuine Rolex and I highly disagree, so case in point, my opinion is the seller deliberately 100% sold a counterfeit to me so whether he 100% gave me a refund or even sent flowers and card with it… he still deserves negative feedback!


I agree it is not worth the risk on Ebay, the only nice thing is Paypal and Ebay back you so there is comfort there but still not worth the hassel.

I don’t know if your aloud to on here but can anyone recommend a reputable used Rolex seller, ones that sells 100% genuine Rolex’s?

[SaintJoel]

Hi, this is my first post but I look at the forum regularly.

I bought a Rolex from Matt Becker and can tell you that he's a good guy. I've had mine checked and it is 100% genuine. It is the most accurate mechanical watch that I've ever owned.
If you have a problem with your purchase than I suggest that you call him because, if you're not happy, he will definitly give you your money back.

[springer]

Originally Posted by SaintJoel

Hi, this is my first post but I look at the forum regularly.

I bought a Rolex from Matt Becker and can tell you that he's a good guy. I've had mine checked and it is 100% genuine. It is the most accurate mechanical watch that I've ever owned.
If you have a problem with your purchase than I suggest that you call him because, if you're not happy, he will definitly give you your money back.

Nice of you to stop by and offer your perspective on this matter.

I will agree that M. Becker is a nice fellow. His listings are fairly accurate but he is one of the "kings" of aftermarket. Nothing wrong with that, since we all know that many watches can be found with aftermarket parts - most notably bracelets, bezel inserts, crystals and dials.

But, back to the issue of this ladies Datejust. As an enhanced member of ebay, who has removed many fake and misrepresented watches through the years, this watch had several issues. If I had seen it while it was listed, I would have had it removed. It was misrepresented. I do not believe it is proper to misrepresent a watch, then later, when the buyer finds out something was not as stated, have the seller refund or exchange the watch. Very poor business practice in my opinion.

[EbayBuyer]

Thank you all for your help.

springer
beckertime has this same listing up again, he obviously has a few of these watches (in this aftermarket style he is trying to sell)

But again i honestly feel Beckertime is buying the counterfeit bands/clasps and putting them on their watches and claiming the band is aftermarket the clasp is real. (oh and claiming it is a very high end aftermarket band ) Although this is just one case where i can actually prove Beckertime sold counterfeit Rolex parts i would bet it happens a lot more with the bands/clasps.
Aftermarket and counterfeit are two different things and what they tried doing to me is just wrong and illegal.

My advise to anyone buying from them is have it inspected and read the fine print!!

Needless to say i have learned my lesson, buy the seller before the watch.

[EbayBuyer]

Just out of spite, I may purchase 2 or 3 more from them and document all my findings of anymore counterfeit parts being used.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by EbayBuyer

Just out of spite, I may purchase 2 or 3 more from them and document all my findings of anymore counterfeit parts being used.

Very smart move

[Johny]

Originally Posted by EbayBuyer

Just out of spite, I may purchase 2 or 3 more from them and document all my findings of anymore counterfeit parts being used.

please do. I would be interested to read your findings.

[EbayBuyer]

Springer,

Please do not compare the photos from EBAY if they are real/fake or indifferent, the only photos that are relevant are the photo of the watch that i was sold.

[sigguy]

Originally Posted by EbayBuyer

Please do not compare the photos from EBAY if they are real/fake or indifferent, the only photos that are relevant are the photo of the watch that i was sold.

I can't comment on the clasp itself, but will point out the following on
the listing ...

Although the picture in the listing is pretty fuzzy, one can see that the clasp
is different from what is pictured. Even though the seller puts a disclaimer
about 'stock pictures' at the bottom of his listing and mentioned the
changed clasp in the text, I'm not sure that adheres to EBAY Seller rules;
for one thing stock photos are not allowed for used items. That being
said, I don't know whether Ebay would consider this a SNAD (significantly
not as described) because the clasp change was mentioned in the text.
Could argue either way.

Did you return the watch and get a refund? It appears to be listed again.

Also, check the For Sale forums here; there have been several 169622
for sale here in the last few months at good prices (sub $4k), by sellers
who are highly reputable. You can check the 'whos who' forum.

Finally, I'm not sure about your contention regarding the model numbers
on the fake bracelet being illegal; The Rolex name and Crown are
protected by trademark and copyright law; that is clear. To my knowledge
though one can't copyright or trademark a *simple* number (although one
could for a distinctive design/font).

J

[jvmartin]

The case back inscription is normal on 70s and 80s model Ladies Datejusts.. also the 69173 is not a trademark of Rolex... though it is a model number used... Not 100% sure about the bracelet clasp... 62510 D would be correct for a Ladies Datejust Jubilee model but I am not sure if the inscriptions are correct... I defer to others in regards to the bracelet clasp

[Rootbeer]

I would guess the average consumer looking at the listing would understand this:

Genuine Rolex
Genuine Rolex
Genuine Rolex
Authenticity guaranteed

They would also see this and may consider the seller has a formal association with Rolex:

Speak to a Rolex specialist

But these words are a little trickier and i would suggest require specialist knowledge:

Aftermarket
Custom
Factory

Is there any other arena where 'custom' specifically means solely non-original / not authentic?
Is this exclusive ebay-Rolex parlance?
Many car marques for example offer custom options from the factory.

[jvmartin]

The reason it is listed again and again and again is because with aftermarket you can pretty much make a Rolex to whatever specifications you desire... all you need to do is refinish a dial, add a diamond bezel, and add the bracelet to you specs... no need to scower the earth to find a specific dial, bezel, or band combo