32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Liga

Just be careful with your findings.
Even a proper Witschi in the hands of a semi trained watchmaker can give confusing results.
Any true watchmaker has had to learn what the Witschi is reading, and what it is actually telling him about the movement he is testing.
A watchmaker can use it to diagnose any issues regarding timing. And how to go about fixing what he is seeing.
These issues may be present in your Timegrapher readings, but because you are unfamiliar with what you are seeing and what it is telling you, you may come to the incorrect conclusion.
It may take any watchmaking student years to be able to understand what is happening in a Witschi reading.

Hi Liga,

Have you read the whole thread?

I for one am not looking at this thread from a watchmakers perspective.

I am concerned with a relatively new movement that changes from +/- 2 s/d to unacceptable timing losses.

My DJ 41 runs almost 0 s/d dial up for 60% of it’s PR but in other positions from 50% PR it has an issue and runs very slow.
Exactly what the problem is is unknown to me and I have not had an explanation to date of either the exact problem or how it is being fixed?

Ps. I only have a $150 Timegrapher but I can tell you that the results I see on it for all my watch brands reflect the positional losses or gains I see in real life.

[CharlesN]

I have finally completed my series of timings etc
This spreadsheet was from data on my Sub Date that has a 3235 movement
I started it with full wind.
I left it untouched, continually being monitored and logged the results onto a spreadsheet as often as I could

I hope some of you are interested in these results.




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[CharlesN]

Now that that test has been finished I have been in discussion with another watch timing addict and we have chosen the next test.

We will do exactly the same as the test I have shown above but this time with Six Up. That seemed to be the most natural position after dial Up that we have just done.

We have already learned a couple of things from the 2 simple test done so far.
The more people who join in will just re-inforce our findings I think.

Unfortunately, there is only the two of us doing these timings and calculations.
The more the better .... Don't you want to join in the fun ?

The next set of timings for me start at 9pm my time ... That way on the last day when the watch runs down I wont have to get out of bed to take readings during the night - That happened on the last set.

[saxo3]

The following graphs display and compare the data from CharlesN.
All measurements were done after full movement winding and in DU position.

Submariner 126610 (09/2020)
Sea-Dweller 126600


Comparison 31xx /32xx
Submariner 14060 M
Explorer II 216570
Submariner 126610

[CharlesN]

This is my setup all ready for a 21:00 (BST) start




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[Liga]

Somethings wrong with table 1 and 2.
It's almost impossible for pendant positions to be higher than Dial positions.

[Liga]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

Some more readings from last night...this reflects operation for 47 hours without winding.



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Sorry this is what I was referring to

[Slimpee]

Took my DJ41 to the AD today. They’re sending it to Rolex and said they’re running about 4 months for repairs.

He then tried to sell me a Cellini.

[Zoomerang]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

Took my DJ41 to the AD today. They’re sending it to Rolex and said they’re running about 4 months for repairs.

He then tried to sell me a Cellini.

Wow 4 months! My new Sub 41 is running about 8 spd slow and I'm hesitating sending it in.

[Slimpee]

Originally Posted by Zoomerang

Wow 4 months! My new Sub 41 is running about 8 spd slow and I'm hesitating sending it in.

Yeah I don’t like the wait but the watch is running around 20 seconds slow. It bothers me.

[Wllnv19]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

Yeah I don’t like the wait but the watch is running around 20 seconds slow. It bothers me.

I just got my DSSD JC back from Dallas RSC..it took 2months

[Slimpee]

Originally Posted by Wllnv19

I just got my DSSD JC back from Dallas RSC..it took 2months

The AD thought they’d send it to PA. I looked up Rolex Service PA and saw there’s a facility in Lititz. According to a thread here, it’s a training facility that takes overflow work. I just hope they get the watch back to accurate timekeeping.

[francis]

Originally Posted by Zoomerang

Wow 4 months! My new Sub 41 is running about 8 spd slow and I'm hesitating sending it in.

Warranty work is usually done faster.
I think mine was 4 weeks maybe


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[Michael N Q8]

Here is the final record of my BLRO, reading 4 is after 68 hours of reserve. The watch stopped at 11:06pm, which means the reserve was approx. 73 hours.

I think the amplitude readings from this app are not accurate, but the timekeeping aligns when compared with the atomic time. Bottom line, the watch seems to be fine after the service. Now just the 1 year wait...

[Michael N Q8]

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[Michael N Q8]

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[saxo3]

Many thanks Michael!
Cheers

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

Now just the 1 year wait...

Michael,

Get the Timegrapher .... YOU know you NEED one and it makes sense in this situation.

[Liga]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

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This cannot be right.

It is impossible for Pendant positions to have higher amplitude than Dial positions.

[Liga]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

The AD thought they’d send it to PA. I looked up Rolex Service PA and saw there’s a facility in Lititz. According to a thread here, it’s a training facility that takes overflow work. I just hope they get the watch back to accurate timekeeping.

Lititz does have a school within it's walls.

It's also the largest service center within the United States, completely separate from the school.

[Michael N Q8]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Michael,

Get the Timegrapher .... YOU know you NEED one and it makes sense in this situation.

I will consider getting one, however, this is the first time in 12 years of collecting mechanical watches (various brands) that I have a need for this. Maybe I will become obsessed

[Michael N Q8]

Originally Posted by Liga

This cannot be right.

It is impossible for Pendant positions to have higher amplitude than Dial positions.

I agree, but this is the apps measurements, the main issue is that it kept time within the spec. for the duration of the power reserve. I guess it could have been useful for troubleshooting...

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

I will consider getting one, however, this is the first time in 12 years of collecting mechanical watches (various brands) that I have a need for this. Maybe I will become obsessed

Michael,

I have collected watches for the past 50 years.

I have only very recently bought my own timegrapher.

Until now i used to pop into my AD who has an onsite Rolex trained watchmaker.
He was always happy to do the tests for me even with me standing over him watching.

When (Not if) you get one you will, no doubt about it, become obsessed. Thats all part of the fun from this dreadful hobby.

[saxo3]

The objective to use a timegrapher (amateur of professional instrument) is certainly not to become obsessed or addicted and acquire some data, which one stores somewhere and does not understand.


Such an instrument is a useful tool but it needs some basic understanding of the measurement principle, the analysis of signals, data, and an error determination.



A professional timegrapher is a watchmaker's tool; its understanding and correct use for data taking is certainly not rocket science, at least for somebody in my world.

Part of my fun is to help a few TRF members (e.g. Charles) here to obtain a better understanding of their 32xx movements, based on measurements, which are best explained and compared (with other watches) in some graphs.

[Liga]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

I agree, but this is the apps measurements, the main issue is that it kept time within the spec. for the duration of the power reserve. I guess it could have been useful for troubleshooting...

If it reads incorrectly with amplitude, how reliable is the more important Seconds per Day Reading?????

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Liga

If it reads incorrectly with amplitude, how reliable is the more important Seconds per Day Reading?????

That is one of the interesting things i am recording.

My watch is currently doing a 70 hour (Full wind until stopped) run on the timegrapher. the watch remains on the test arm throughout the test untouched.
It has now been running in the 6Up position for 40 hours
The Amplitude has dropped now to below 200
But, The time is still spot on.
Only about 30 hours to go until this run of tests is over.

[sheldonsmith]

I performed the Power Reserve - Amplitude test on my 126600. The test was performed with my TYMC timing machine that I have owned for a better part of 10 years. Timing was done in the dial-up position and the power reserved measured approximately 72 hours.

The consistent +4 -> +6 sec/day makes sense as the RSC readjusted the watch to consistently run fast in dial-up/down positions. In horizontal positions, the watch is +1 -> +2 sec/day (for now).

-Sheldon

[saxo3]

Accuracy and Precision measurements for caliber 3235 during a 72 hours power reserve test

I was running a power reserve test for my Sea-Dweller 126600 with continuous monitoring and data taking of the rate, amplitude, and beat error in DU (dial up) position.

During the first 5 hours, the average calibre amplitude was 291 degrees with an average rate of + 5,3 s/d.

An accuracy and precision measurement was done between 43 and 48 hours after full movement winding.
Measurements were automatically performed every 30 s (600 data points).
The results are displayed in the graph below.



This shows the first precision measurement for a 3235 caliber (that I see published on this forum) and the results were as follows:

After 48 hours running:
Accuracy: + 4,6 s/d
Precision: +/- 0,2 s/d
Amplitude: 253 +/- 3 degrees

The measured precision of -0,2/+0.2 sec/day is a factor of 10 better than Rolex specification of -2/+2 sec/day.

A nice demonstration of the difference between accuracy and precision, i.e. a slightly fast (+4,6 s/d) running calibre (could be regulated) with a stunning precision of +/- 0,2 s/d.

During the last 24 hours, the amplitude continued to decrease slowly, as expected.
Data were still taken with a high sampling rate; the results for rate and amplitude vs time are shown below; same data for different periods towards the end of the power reserve.



Several things were interesting to observe:

- The measured rate remained (all time) positive until 68,5 hours when it became 0 s/d. At that time the amplitude was only 130 degrees.

- A slow deviation (in rate) was associated with a jump in amplitude (see graph). Such amplitude jumps I have seen several times during PR measurements.

- The timegrapher stopped taking data and indicated "out of range" only at an amplitude value below 100 degrees; 16 minutes later the movement stopped a few seconds close to reaching 72 hours.

I conclude that my SD43 is running extremely well until the end of its power reserve at 72 hours.

The 3235 caliber precision of +/- 0,2 sec/day, measured after 48 hours, is stunning.

[saxo3]

A small (typo) correction:
- The measured rate remained (all time) positive until 69 hours when it became 0 s/d. At that time the amplitude was only 130 degrees.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Michael N Q8

I will consider getting one, however, this is the first time in 12 years of collecting mechanical watches (various brands) that I have a need for this. Maybe I will become obsessed

Afraid Michael like quite a few in this thread you are already obsessed, and many times obsession can be the downfall, and ruination of enjoying and owning one of the finest accurate mechanical watches made today.