32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

All excellent explanations, but I still do not understand some general points. Maybe it is because English is not your first language, or maybe it’s just I am not smart enough. Let me put a couple questions a different way; (and by the way, I have zero experience or knowledge about watch movements, testing, I couldn’t even tell you what amplitude is so I can not dispute your findings in any manner and that is not my intention).

I think it's not my English, but who knows…

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

You say your 15XX movements, well I think you are saying you are very happy with your 15xx movements running off by 5 to 10 seconds per day (but you prefer them running fast rather then slow, completely understandable).

No, I say that I can accept them running up to +5 or + 10 s/d.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I am ignorant on these movements, are they rated to COSC? +4 -6?

Some but not all 15xx movements are COSC.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

If so, then 5 or 10 seconds is not a bad deviation, especially for an old movement. You stated that your 32XX movements were running “much worse” then your 15XX. Now, is that in comparison to 5 or 10 seconds a day?

Yes.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Or is it in comparison to the advertised accuracy of these movements of + - 2 ?

No, Rolex SA does not specify or advertise an accuracy of +/- 2 sec/day. This is the specified precision.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Is the problem you are expecting much better accuracy and not getting it? Or that your 32XX is much WORSE then the 5 or 10 seconds a day of your 15xx? I am probably not stating this very clear but are you not happy with the 32xx because it should be to a much higher standard then the 15xx? Or because it is just keeping much worse time over-all. I.e. An accuracy that caused the watch to be off by MORE then 5 or 10 seconds a day?

I am not expecting a much better or perfect accuracy. I would expect that the 32xx production and quality standards in 2021 are a bit higher than in the 60’s and 70’s.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

As an example, if your 32XX was off by, oh, 4 or 6 seconds a day would that be acceptable to you?

Yes, if it would run consistently at +4 or +5 or +6 s/d then it's totally acceptable for me. Why? Then a watchmaker can regulate it to let's say +1 or +2 s/d.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Or are you more demanding of this movement because of the higher accuracy claims?

No, you might wish to understand the difference between accuracy and precision, see post #1228 in this thread.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I hope I am getting some of this across clearly for you to understand but I don’t blame you if it is confusing. And please don’t say I can just look at the graphs, I tried to understand them but my head exploded.

It's not confusing for me.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

My second question, and probably the most important point I was trying to make, deals with the final result. If you enjoy taking measurements and graphing the numbers and comparing with others their results then more power to you. However to what end? Let’s say the findings represent a world-over accuracy of worse then +- 2 seconds per day. I am just using a hypothetical situation but imagine your 32XX comes out to an average similar to your 15xx, 10 seconds a day for example. Does that mean you enjoy it any less?

No, if it runs consistently let's say +5 or +10 or even +15 s/d, then this watch has no problem, because it can be regulated by a watchmaker. The keyword is consistent, that means every day running too fast but by the same amount of seconds.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Will that make you return it to Rolex for an adjustment? And another, until it gets to +-2?

Not necessarily, my Sea-Dweller Ref. 126600 (3235) runs now with constant +5 s/d and it does not worry me at all. It could be regulated but I don't see the need.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

And then will you keep re-checking and again send it in when it is 10 seconds a day slow?

If it becomes slow and this gets worse over time, then there might be an issue, which is discussed extensively in this thread.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Do you understand my point?

Probably yes.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I am not accusing you of this, but it seems that some people and posters are so concerned with obtaining the advertised accuracy and SEEKING a problem the watch becomes more of a source of obsession, not enjoyment.

I understand your point but I am not of this type. You write it again "….advertised accuracy…"
What I have seen so far on this forum is that so many people seem not to understand what the difference between accuracy and precision is. Many (like you) expect or even request an accuracy of -2/+2 sec/day. They refer to Rolex specs, that's wrong in my opinion. I did not count how often padi56 (and others) have explained that in so many post and threads that accuracy depends on the wearing pattern of the watch owner, as well as many different external parameters.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

If the watch is way-off of course I understand wanting it to be addressed, but if your 32XX movement ends up being 10 seconds fast/slow per day, and you can live with your 15xx movement having that accuracy, then why is that an issue?

The difference is that I have two 32xx movements that are running with negative rates and this becomes worse over rather short time, i.e. a few weeks or months, not some years.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I have probably done a lousy job of explaining and asking these two points, but I bring up my example of the guy with the loop, looking for scratches. Sure, if your watch has a MAJOR scratch visible in an obvious place I can understand wanting it addressed, but if you have to put on a loop and look and look and look some more to find scratches, first, you will definitely find some, second, SEEKING a problem detracts from the over-all enjoyment of a fine timepiece.

I understand your comparison with the loupe people, but your comparison is not right. The 32xx issues reported for early sold movements (until about 2018/2019) are not minor loupe-type problems. Some watches show this caliber problems, others not. Maybe I was a bit unfortunate when I bought 3 problematic 32xx watches. I'm pretty sure that Rolex SA has understood and solved the 32xx issues.

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

If it is not a big problem, a large discrepancy in accuracy, then why do an exhaustive search to find one? Why not just wear the watch and enjoy it?

I think my replies have answered that already before.
With your 17,5 k and my 0,7 k posts, one could get the impression that I'm passing a rookie test. (k = 1000)

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

I hope that makes sense.

And I hope you appreciate my efforts (and time) to explain.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by saxo3

And I hope you appreciate my efforts (and time) to explain.

WOW !!!!!

Now thats what I call a seriously good and full answer.

Outstanding.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

WOW !!!!!

Now thats what I call a seriously good and full answer.

Outstanding.

Agreed, But I was hoping for a graph

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Agreed, But I was hoping for a graph

I am quite sure saxo3 can provide you with a graph.

Maybe he will provide a graph of the number of hours I spend on this forum.

But, maybe its not a good idea as my wife might see it and wonder why I spend so much time here.

I will try and prepare graph of the Correlation between Precision and Accuracy and the crossovers.

Please bear with me .. I can not do it as well as saxo3 as i can not figure how graphs appear on a computer. I will have to do it by hand.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Agreed, But I was hoping for a graph

I have done my best to do a graph showing what is going to happen in the future with all calibers in automatic mode

but Also ... Please don't forget .. There is a slight margin for error built in also to COSC standards.




I am sorry it is on its side but I can’t turn it over.
I guess it’s a bit like my watch on the timegrapher at 9U position


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[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I have done my best to do a graph showing what is going to happen in the future with all calibers in automatic mode

but Also ... Please don't forget .. There is a slight margin for error built in also to COSC standards.




I am sorry it is on its side but I can’t turn it over.
I guess it’s a bit like my watch on the timegrapher at 9U position


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Sorry Charles, but Saxo has much better graphing skills then you do.

Although I think I do see the image of a Pony...

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I think it's not my English, but who knows…


And I hope you appreciate my efforts (and time) to explain.

Probably isn’t your English, I will admit that; you speak it very well and I admit I couldn’t understand a single word of whatever your native language is (unless it is Spanish), so I will admit it’s me. And I do understand your points. I do not agree with a lot of them, or your intense efforts, but they are your views and your business, I wish you luck in achieving your goals.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Probably isn’t your English, I will admit that; you speak it very well and I admit I couldn’t understand a single word of whatever your native language is (unless it is Spanish), so I will admit it’s me. And I do understand your points. I do not agree with a lot of them, or your intense efforts, but they are your views and your business, I wish you luck in achieving your goals.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Ahhhhhhhhhh! Now I get it!

[saxo3]

. (first data point of the next graph)

[CharlesN]

I have wondered if noise or temperature is also a possible cause of fluctuations.
The noise is not a factor as the room I am doing the tests in is near silent

Temperature seems to have no effect either.

I have attached below pictures showing my methods …

For noise ……




For temperature ………




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[CharlesN]

I used to horse ride when I was younger
But the vibration may have affected my watch so the precision was bad

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I used to horse ride when I was younger
But the vibration may have affected my watch so the precision was bad

I used to play water polo, but my horse drown....

OK, I’ll stop with the bad jokes

[saxo3]

What does it mean by OK in Accuracy and Precision numbers?

Originally Posted by Dirt

There is a difference, but a graph would surely illustrate better than explanations.

Dirt, You'll Never Walk Alone

I know you love my graphs.
Here you go. (The non-VTC version)

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

What does it mean by OK in Accuracy and Precision numbers?



Dirt, You'll Never Walk Alone

I know you love my graphs.
Here you go. (The non-VTC version)

Perfect
Thankyou.
That's certainly plain enough for everybody

[CharlesN]

A few days ago I noticed my watch seemed to do a dive with Timekeeping.
(Yes I did realise I have a divers watch).

A few days later it started to level off and now it’s slightly reversed. I agree it is very slight but it is noticeable.

I have not yet this morning had time to place my watch in my timegrapher but yesterday on the timegrapher I did not detect any obvious change
I will look later.
Please note this picture from my iPhone app WatchTracker is good but too basic for serious accurate readings. It is only good for a visual guideline.




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[Dirt]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

A few days ago I noticed my watch seemed to do a dive with Timekeeping.
(Yes I did realise I have a divers watch).

A few days later it started to level off and now it’s slightly reversed. I agree it is very slight but it is noticeable.

I have not yet this morning had time to place my watch in my timegrapher but yesterday on the timegrapher I did not detect any obvious change
I will look later.
Please note this picture from my iPhone app WatchTracker is good but too basic for serious accurate readings. It is only good for a visual guideline.




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It may well be nothing of any concern as it's quickly returning to the overall trend with that upward swing at the end.

[CharlesN]

As promised in a previous post this morning here is some more data

It is strange that the readings so far are not showing the upturn in time keeping as is shown in the WatchTracker app.

The x figures tell it all in reality. There is just no escape from that.

This is possibly caused by my wearing pattern but speculation is not one thing that I like. Hard proof is always better and more reliable.






I will have more data at mid-day (U.K.) time and will post that at a suitable time.


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[saxo3]

New Rolex Advert

COMING SOON
20 May 2021

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by saxo3

New Rolex Advert

COMING SOON
20 May 2021

I am excited Is it something great .. i hope it is.

I wonder if my AD knows anything ... I will call him to get on the waiting list for something good.

I wonder if my AD will be honest and not sell the first ones he gets to the grey market but let real customers have a chance first.

Will it be precious metal or Stainless Steel they have done nothing in Titanium yet also .. so more thoughts here.

Have you been to the Eidgenossenschaft to find something ?

I am on http://www.rolex.com now to see what you can see.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by saxo3

New Rolex Advert

COMING SOON
20 May 2021 @10:10:31

[Rori]

Originally Posted by saxo3

:-)
I wish I have the tools to collaborate with this amazing study.
Good work guys and kudos to all of you who are feeding this thread with data.


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[CharlesN]

Going by my TimeGrapher my watch looses about -0.56spd (VERY VERY GOOD). This figure is an average of the last 6 days monitoring.

But In TRUTH My watch looses -0.34spd and I am still monitoring it on WatchTracker. (Thats stunningy accurate)

To me this is interesting. But ..... I have changed one habit ..... I now do a FULL WIND at middle of the day prior to taking readings of the 5 Positions on the TimeGrapher.

Next week I will carry on the same observations but I will not do a full wind prior to using the TimeGrapher. I will just use real life wearing to see if there is any difference.

I have noticed in the last week that the WatchTracker app is showing a slight but steady increase in timekeeping. The loss it was making has slightly diminished. I am guessing that this is caused by the full wind I do prior to every TimeGrapher test daily.

But, What is a little odd to my thinking is that I take my dog for a longish walk every day, rain or shine, and I do this before I do the measurements. I would have expected my watch to be fully wound after a long walk.
Is manual wind to fully wound different to walking and winding to be fully wound in Amplitude ?

At the moment at night I place my watch DD. It used to be 3U but I have changed. I will continue with DD until this next set of tests concludes.

I do realise that some of you will think I am completely daft doing these measurements, but, no harm comes to any of the following, My dog, My watch or me. I just learn a little more every day.

Ps I will post a photo of the WatchTracker results separately.

[CharlesN]

As promised …… My WatchTracker results to date …….




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[CharlesN]

This is my latest set of tables … Monday to Saturday .. Just Tomorrow (Sunday) to go for a full weeks observations.

And guess what …….. It starts all over again next Monday




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[saxo3]

Charles, there are a few lessons to learn from your data:

- Your mechanical watch is running extremely well and has no issue at all.

- All measured rates are integer numbers.

- For the Weishi 1900 timegrapher, the rate range can be chosen, either +/- 999 s/d or +/- 99 s/d. Consequently, the rate resolution is either +/- 1 s/d or +/- 0.1 s/d. See screenshot of your Timegrapher Manual below. You have used the low-resolution range.

- Your averaged-rate (X) varied between -0.2 and -0.8 s/d. If you would add an error bar of at least +/- 0.5 s/d to each rate then all X values become identical (within the error bar range).

- A comparison of your timegrapher (-0.56 s/d) with your WatchTracker result (-0.34 s/d) makes … sorry to say …. no sense, especially on a 10 ms level.

- Amplitude values with one decimal digit?

- Your Submariner is running consistently in the range 0 to -1 s/d, absolutely perfect.

- For future rate measurements I would choose the higher resolution mode of your timegrapher, especially if your rates are so close to 0 s/d.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Charles,

- Your Submariner is running consistently in the range 0 to -1 s/d, absolutely perfect.

I know it’s running amazingly well with over 21 days and a total error of just 7.5 seconds
That’s astonishingly good and I am delighted.

As to my measuring ……. I did say above that on Monday it will all start again but this time using a far more “sensitive” scale showing the extra digit.
I may not be able to start on Monday though …… I might have to start later in the week for technical reasons.
I will finish this week in the low sensitivity range to then be able to compare a full week in another setting.

[CharlesN]

I am almost halfway through this weeks set of observations

I have done 3 out of 7 days.

I have slightly altered my method …
I now fully wind my watch and place it in the TimeGrapher
I leave it there for a minimum of 30 mins to settle down nicely
I then record the DU results
Then I rotate the watch to the next required position (3U) and wait 5 mons before recording the results. I do this between all 5 positions (Not 12U).

I have also set the scale of my Timegrapher to show a more sensitive error (+/-) by adding a decimal point.

I then also calculate the X and record that so I do an X of X weekly. That is not normal but it’s for my own fun.

Here are my first 3 days observations.




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[CharlesN]

My setup has also slightly changed.

I have moved everything into my home office where it is virtually silent and nobody will touch anything.




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[krounchou]

Had to bring my watch for service today, 3 y.o Datejust 41 with 3235 caliber with low amplitude crown down and loosing 6-7 sec / day. They say it was better to service it as it's still under warranty...