32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[AntoMeRolexPassion]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Hi Antonio,
You are kindly invited to post an executive summary of all findings in your thread "Rolex calibri serie 32xx e 31xx differenze e approfondimenti".

Cheers.saxo3

Personal experience.

In December 2018 i bought a Deepsea 126660. During the first six months of use the behavior was exceptional, it was perfectly within the -2/+ 2 rate.
After this first period put it aside to use other watches in the collection, and used it again after several months.
In the meantime we began to discuss the topic on the Italian forum Orologi&Passioni and through the use of an iOS app, WatchTracker, i began to monitor the daily rate and i saw that daily the result was worse, it was not within -2/+2 and was delayed by -4 a day.

I put it aside again for a couple of months, then went back to using it and in the meantime bought a timeghapher, the Weishi 1900.

I started doing several tests, here are the results:

Measurements carried out at fully wound, lift angle 53°
Dial up: Rate 0 s/d, amplitude 217°, Beat Error 0.0 ms
Vertical 12: Rate -1 s/d, amplitude 173°, Beat Error 0.5 ms
Vertical 6: Rate -8 s/d, amplitude 176°, Beat Error 0.1 ms
Crown up: Rate -8 s/d, aplitude 172°, Beat Error 0.6 ms
Crown down: Rate -4 s/d, amplitude 180°, Beat Error 0.1 ms


Measurements carried out after 24 hours at rest, lift angle 53°

Dial up: Rate +4 s/d, amplitude 212°, Beat Error 0.0 ms
Vertical 12: Rate -2 s/d, amplitude 46°, Beat Error 0.6 ms
Vertical 6: Rate -12 s/d, amplitude 145°, Beat Error 0.1 ms
Crown up: Rate -12 s/d, amplitude 157°, Beat Error 0.5 ms
Crown down: Rate 0 s/d, amplitude 156°, Beat Error 0.0 ms


Measurements carried out after 48 hours at rest, lift angle 53°
Dial up: Rate +5 s/d, amplitude 204°, Beat Error 0.1 ms
Vertical 12: Rate +3 s/d, amplitude 145°, Beat Error 0.5 ms
Vertical 6: Rate -14 s/d, amplitude 136°, Beat Error 0.2 ms
Crown up: Rate -24 s/d, amplitude 129°, Beat Error 0.7 ms
Crown down: Rate +7 s/d, amplitude 142°, Beat Error 0.0 ms


Measurements made after 14 hours of use following 48 hours at rest, lift angle 53°

Dial up: Rate 0 s/d, amplitude 194°, Beat Error 0.0 ms
Vertical 12: Rate -5 s/d, amplitude 154°, Beat Error 0.4 ms
Vertical 6: Rate -16 s/d, amplitude 156°, Beat Error 0.1 ms
Crown up: Rate -32 s/d, amplitude 145°, Beat Error 0.5 ms
Crowndown: Rate -15 s/d, amplitude 136°, Beat Error 0.0 ms

I noticed that the amplitude, even when fully charged, was low (max 217°) and the more the charge decreased the more the amplitude decreased and the more the watch delayed.

I decided to get Rolex to intervene on warranty. The watch has been out exactly one month. On the back i noticed that the amplitude at full charge is now around 280°, it decreases leaving it at rest but the daily rate has no problems: it is always in -2/+2 day and indeed instead of delaying it now anticipates.

What was done in the service is a mystery... the sheet says "partial intervention".

In the meantime i also bought a Submariner 126610LV caliber 3235 and as for the Deepsea i started to do tests with the timeghapher too: no problem so far, amplitude between 280 and 290° decreases when it is at rest for 24/48 h but the rate is excellent, between 0 and -1 s/d

It seems that the biggest problems can be found on 32xx movements of 2018/2019 and that over time something has been solved.

It would be nice to understand what problems there may have been, in this regard I have collected some clues here in Italy.

Of course, my Deepsea wasn't the only Rolex caliber 32xx to be tested. The problem also affected other watches of the years 2018 and 2019, while it seems not to affect more recent watches that respond very well to the tests

Hope i have made a useful contribution like HiBoost did here

[Rushhour]

Originally Posted by saxo3

There is no general answer to this question, it depends on the watch/caliber fabrication date.


Do you have some useable data for your 126711 CHNR?


The blue dial Milgauss (Ref. 116400 GV) has a 3135 caliber. I can confirm that the 3100 series movements run very well.


Can you explain further what you mean with "master aggregate graph" (I like the master part ).


There is no other way to start here.


Thank you!

Sorry - I should have said that i was just comparing the 3285 to the Milgauss’s older movement.

I only have one shot daily data - I check my watches every morning via the atomic clock. So not useable for this project.

Now that being said - this project interests the geek in me. So what timegrapher would be appropriate for someone like myself to participate? I can hear the wife now - what the hell are you doing now Steve with those watches. She likes the watches, but me staying on here all the time not so much.

As respects a master list - I realized after writing it - it would be probably impossible. Given each movement with a problem tested was in a different state of failing.

Specifically, I was thinking you combine the data from the various 3200 movements that have had an issue and calculate the mean, median and maybe even standard deviation of the group over the time frames. And also the same where you are getting data for 3200 movements with no issue.

Really, just thinking out loud.

Again, thanks for doing this - I think it is important.

But, if you see in the news - wife killed husband over him spending too much time with his Rolex - that probably is me!

Steve


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Rushhour

Now that being said - this project interests the geek in me. So what timegrapher would be appropriate for someone like myself to participate? I can hear the wife now - what the hell are you doing now Steve with those watches. She likes the watches, but me staying on here all the time not so much.

As respects a master list - I realized after writing it - it would be probably impossible. Given each movement with a problem tested was in a different state of failing.

Again, thanks for doing this - I think it is important.

But, if you see in the news - wife killed husband over him spending too much time with his Rolex - that probably is me!

Steve

Hi Steve,

You have a couple of "good ones" in your post, which made me smile...

An overview about various possibilities for timegraphers I delivered in this thread here:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showpost...&postcount=212

[Omarion07]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I fully agree with your view
Not sure to which group of Rolex fan boys the "I" in WIS belongs

Sorry Saxo3, I was referring to watch enthusiasts in general and Rolex enthusiasts in particular.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by AntoMeRolexPassion

Hope i have made a useful contribution

Yes, thanks!

You basically confirm for your Sea-Dweller Ref. 126660 what has been reported frequently for several other watches in this thread.

Your new Submariner 126610 LV (Feb. 2021) keeps perfect time but has low amplitude in a few positions.

Can you provide some new timegrapher data (in 5 positions) for your 126610 LV and present the results in a Table as done in posts #1137 and #1139?

A power reserve test (such as CharlesN recently did) would be also interesting for this new Submariner.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Rushhour

this project interests the geek in me. So what timegrapher would be appropriate for someone like myself to participate?

I use a Weishi No.1900 timegrapher. They are not expensiveve and readily available on Amazon.

The No 1000 is also perfectly good and a little cheaperper.

Both should be available for less than $200

There is only one problem in buying a Timegrapher .... Its addictingve !

[padi56]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

I use a Weishi No.1900 timegrapher. They are not expensiveve and readily available on Amazon.

The No 1000 is also perfectly good and a little cheaperper.

Both should be available for less than $200

There is only one problem in buying a Timegrapher .... Its addictingve !

There is only one problem in buying a Timegrapher .... Its addictingve

At last you speak the truth and often leads to obsession.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

There is only one problem in buying a Timegrapher .... Its addictingve !

I waste far more time on this forum than I do checking accuracy from time to time.

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by padi56

At last you speak the truth and often leads to obsession.

I was always taught that “If you don’t have something sensible to add to a discussion then it’s better to just stay silent”.

Its a good Lesson to remember !

[saxo3]

Charles, don't forget, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

[CharlesN]

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[CharlesN]

Although this thread is basically about the 32xx movements I thought I would also measure a 31xx movement to get a good comparison in all the data’s
This is what I have so far …….




As you can see the error being recorded really does mirror itself with the true error in timekeeping.
But, it's "Heart" is not missing a beat.



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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

Although this thread is basically about the 32xx movements I thought I would also measure a 31xx movement to get a good comparison in all the data’s

Hi Charles,

Just to remind there were already a few 31xx movement data and 2 power reserve measurements (Andad, saxo3) done and published in this thread.

If you do compare (126610 vs 116610) for all 5 positions that will be new here and I can compare your results in a few simple graphs.

Great that you have such patience to spend 5 x 48 hours in a series

[CharlesN]

I will do all five positions as I did for my 32xx movement
All 5 positions from Full wind to stopped and also the 5 positions done on a short period that gives a very good basic summary as well
Yes it is time consuming but it is important to do research and get a true comparison of both in the same environment , Temperature and even timegrapher so there is almost nothing that can cause a false comparison

[AntoMeRolexPassion]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Yes, thanks!

You basically confirm for your Sea-Dweller Ref. 126660 what has been reported frequently for several other watches in this thread.

Your new Submariner 126610 LV (Feb. 2021) keeps perfect time but has low amplitude in a few positions.

Can you provide some new timegrapher data (in 5 positions) for your 126610 LV and present the results in a Table as done in posts #1137 and #1139?

A power reserve test (such as CharlesN recently did) would be also interesting for this new Submariner.

The most important difference between Submariner LV and Deepsea before it went into service is that although the amplitude is low in some positions it does not affect the daily rate.
The reason for the problems on 2018 2019 watches is unknown, an official Rolex watchmaker told me confidentially that the problem is in the type of lubrication.
The 31xx were lubricated piece by piece and with different oils, the 32xx undergo an industrial process. Some parts are lubricated by immersion and others by nebulization, with fewer types of oils.
In particular one of them should expand evenly throughout the caliber through use, but often this does not happen and the mechanics in some parts work without oil. I don't know if this motivation is true, it could be.
Personally I am convinced that the problem is in the escapement.

The table for the 126610LV i fill in with pleasure: if i can be useful i do it happy and i reciprocate the help you gave us on our Forum.
How do you want the watch to be? Fully wound?

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by AntoMeRolexPassion

an official Rolex watchmaker told me confidentially

But. As it was confidential I think you might just have let a lot of people know.

It’s not confidential now.

[AntoMeRolexPassion]

Originally Posted by CharlesN

But. As it was confidential I think you might just have let a lot of people know.

It’s not confidential now.

I guess it wasn't even when he told me...

In any case, it is better to know even if personally, as i said before, as much as it is possible that the gauges lubricate them like this, i do not think the problems depend on this...

[saxo3]

Here are the graphs for a 3130 and 3187 movement, both in DU position, shown and discussed here in February 2021.



It will be interesting to see how Charles' Submariner 116610 (3135) data will integrate.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by AntoMeRolexPassion

The table for the 126610LV i fill in with pleasure: if i can be useful i do it happy and i reciprocate the help you gave us on our Forum.
How do you want the watch to be? Fully wound?

Great, yes please start with fully winding the caliber.

Then, as described in posts #1137 and #1139.

It would be good if you can measure all 5 position at t=o, t=12 h, t=24 h...

A second interesting test is to measure amplitudes, rates, beat errors in a fixed position (e.g. dial up) along the entire power reserve, as shown above in #1158.

Key is to share your data here! Then I can produce comparable graphs such as displayed in post #1108.

Graphs tell more than 1000 words or tables.

[AntoMeRolexPassion]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Great, yes please start with fully winding the caliber.

Then, as described in posts #1137 and #1139.

It would be good if you can measure all 5 position at t=o, t=12 h, t=24 h...

A second interesting test is to measure amplitudes, rates, beat errors in a fixed position (e.g. dial up) along the entire power reserve, as shown above in #1158.

Key is to share your data here! Then I can produce comparable graphs such as displayed in post #1108.

Graphs tell more than 1000 words or tables.

Tomorrow night with full charge i do everything, having the Weishi i can make surveys in any position you want.
How do I get a clean table where to insert the data?

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Charles, don't forget, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Actually that's another myth that's not necessarily correct.
I have had two old dogs in my life that had no problem learning a new trick or two along with an old cat that we were minding semi permanently for my wife's friends and it was loosing its marbles a bit. That cat would happily sit on command

Maybe we need a better expression as that myth is busted

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by AntoMeRolexPassion

Personally I am convinced that the problem is in the escapement.

My thoughts exactly.
I also have a theory around that very possibility

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Omarion07

For the average Rolex buyer who buys Rolex for the hype and following the crowd, they won't notice any of the timekeeping issues affecting the 32xx movements, and will continue on buying Rolex as long as they're in fashion, just like with the Iphones and Birkin bags.

For WIS, on the other hand, Rolex's reputation won't get affected if they've found a permanent solution for the aforementioned timekeeping issues. The 2020 batches seem to be fine so far but we'll have a better idea in a year from now.

Agreed

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Maybe we need a better expression as that myth is busted

That expression is valid.

This picture might serve too?



Empty barrels make the most noise

[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by Dirt

I also have a theory around that very possibility

This could be interesting ..
You have a theory.
I hear a Nobel Prize winner in the making here ...
BUT ........
This thread is NOT interested in THEORY.
What we want is DATA and proof of the data.
so as a result of not providing any of that said data ..
No prize at all for you.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by AntoMeRolexPassion

Tomorrow night with full charge i do everything, having the Weishi i can make surveys in any position you want.
How do I get a clean table where to insert the data?

I can and will prepare a template for you, if you wish.

[AntoMeRolexPassion]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I can and will prepare a template for you, if you wish.

No need, i write them here in the text of the post then you use them as you want!


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[CharlesN]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I can and will prepare a template for you, if you wish.

A good idea for ONE person to make the template and others to copy it so that all data comes in the same format and design route.

Perhaps post a copy of the template here so people can copy it.

Thats a little bit like "A Master" guiding us to simplify things.

just a little idea ?????

[AntoMeRolexPassion]

A good idea


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by AntoMeRolexPassion

No need, i write them here in the text of the post then you use them as you want!


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You want to deliver a series of PR data (like below) in text form????



I'm not going to transfer text into tables and graphs, sorry.