Need advice - buyer claims watch received fake

[Chewbacca]

i feel for you, henry.

this is total bullshine.

[crowncollection]

yep outcome as expected

[CorradoBrit]

Seller pays Paypals exorbitant fees and for what? Absolutely no seller protection whatsoever. In future I would insist on F&F or bank transfer when selling, especially for international sales.

[roach7]

If I receive anything other than what I shipped him I will pursue legal action against PayPal, this is utter nonsense

[tamiya]

Please post up the pictures of the actual unit & package contents you sent.

At this point IMHO you have nothing more to lose by publicising the full details of your unit.

Link to fleaBay completed sale?

Happy to be your eyes & ears on the ground here downunder in this little antipodean town, but I need to know what I'm looking out for.

[function12]

Wow that just sucks!!!

[roach7]

Originally Posted by tamiya

Please post up the pictures of the actual unit & package contents you sent.

At this point IMHO you have nothing more to lose by publicising the full details of your unit.

Link to fleaBay completed sale?

Happy to be your eyes & ears on the ground here downunder in this little antipodean town, but I need to know what I'm looking out for.

Unfortunately for new items I normally use stock photos in my listing so I don't actually have any actual photos of the watch. The only thing I have is a photo of the warranty card which was taken by my authorized dealer when I bought the watch.

[Knappo 1307]

This really sucks! I can't believe the lack of common sense from paypal, you have 3108 positive feedbacks and a 100% rating on eBay. Just plan stupidity and(like said above), a robot lazy a$$ approach by Paypal. I'm seriously considering dumping paypal, this hasn't happened to me yet but it is just a matter of time it seems.....

Can you post the link to your ebay add? Another concern for you now may be if you use "stock" photos, and there is a serial visible in your link photos, it's not going to match the actual watch and warranty card you sold...

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by roach7

Unfortunately for new items I normally use stock photos in my listing so I don't actually have any actual photos of the watch. The only thing I have is a photo of the warranty card which was taken by my authorized dealer when I bought the watch.

You should consider contacting a lawyer to take legal action against PayPal.

Its fine for people to say "its your word against his, and payPal sides with the buyer" - but that has NO legal grounds.

2ndly, can you check the buyers status/profile on eBay - how many times has he purchased and what. PayPal can check that to show his reputation versus yours.

I would not give op to a PayPal robot reply
adam

[schaumburgla]

I was already on the fence about accepting PP but now I am certainly only going to give that option too trusted forum members with top references. Can't agree more with whats already been said about getting some kind of written proof from
the RSC that he claims declared it as counterfeit.
Why in the world PP would simply side with the buyer without such written proof from the watch manufacturer themselves is baffling & frustrating.
I hope PP demands such proof & than you ultimately get your resolve.
Best
Justin

[Tony64]

There's still the remotest of possibilities that this is simply buyer's remorse, or some sort of misunderstanding, and the buyer ships your watch back and not a box of rocks.

If it's the scam that we all suspect, I'm not sure that fighting PayPal will do more than ratchet up your anger and anxiety. You can call a lawyer and spend more money or move on and consider it the price of a lesson learned. It sucks, I realize, but despite best wishes and wholehearted support for a fair resolution, it's still ultimately your word against his. Unless he's demonstrated a pattern of such behavior, I don't see how you'll prevail. Hope I'm proven wrong.

[Wahlberg]

Ridiculous.

It's sad to see how companies like this do business. They simply don't care because they get too many of these cases and want to get 1 party happy. Guess which.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by roach7

Yes, I have the bill of sales from the AD... what if the buyer says I kept the real one and sent him the fake? I did not video tape the packing of the shipment and even if I did I've heard such video evidence is useless against claims like this.

^^^ This is the problem. There's no way for you to prove what the buyer received, or that you actually shipped the authentic item.

As unfair as this is, imagine being on the other side of this deal but with an unscrupulous seller. You respond to a eBay ad showing a real Rolex and pay for the item pictured. Seller sends you a cheap fake. Seller claims as proof that he has a receipt of purchase for the real Rolex. See what I mean? It proves nothing. Unless you can somehow establish that what he received is what you've sent I don't see how you can prevail in this situation.

The real question is who's got the burden of proof? The seller or the buyer? From what it seems, PayPal considers the buyer's word above all else barring some extenuating circumstance.

Anyone have a different experience?

[function12]

Originally Posted by Tony64

^^^ This is the problem. There's no way for you to prove what the buyer received, or that you actually shipped the authentic item.

As unfair as this is, imagine being on the other side of this deal but with an unscrupulous seller. You respond to a eBay ad showing a real Rolex and pay for the item pictured. Seller sends you a cheap fake. Seller claims as proof that he has a receipt of purchase for the real Rolex. See what I mean? It proves nothing. Unless you can somehow establish that what he received is what you've sent I don't see how you can prevail in this situation.

The real question is who's got the burden of proof? The seller or the buyer? From what it seems, PayPal considers the buyer's word above all else barring some extenuating circumstance.

Anyone have a different experience?

I bought a sony programmable remote many years ago. He was local but reused to meet FTF. He was to busy and just wanted to ship it. It arrived damaged and a closer look it has soda residue on the inside battery compartment. The seller wanted me to submit a damage claim to UPS instead of him giving me a refund. The box was not damaged at all. He was trying to sell me a broken remote. Thank goodness paypal refunded my money. I took it to UPS to show them the remote before I shipped it back. Never heard another work from the seller.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by function12

I bought a sony programmable remote many years ago. He was local but reused to meet FTF. He was to busy and just wanted to ship it. It arrived damaged and a closer look it has soda residue on the inside battery compartment. The seller wanted me to submit a damage claim to UPS instead of him giving me a refund. The box was not damaged at all. He was trying to sell me a broken remote. Thank goodness paypal refunded my money. I took it to UPS to show them the remote before I shipped it back. Never heard another work from the seller.

Exactly my point, and unfortunately in the OP's case I think that PayPal will side with the buyer here as well.

[Fjweld]

This outcome is absolutely insulting to you Roach.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by jvmartin

Exactly why some Trusted Sellers on TRF don't take Paypal... sorry to hear... unfortunately, this is likely not going to end in your favor... I would suggest making sure to thoroughly respond to every request for more information/documentation and call Paypal and see if you can speak to someone for further information on this case.. if you have a long history of selling and do significant business you MAY have a shot.

Exactly this. Good luck, keep us informed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[amg55]

The whole PayPal thing really sucks. The trouble is that it costs PP nothing in these disputed transactions. PP will miss out on a bit of commission but that's not a big deal to them. All they want to do is to promote that the buyers are completely safe from fraudulent sellers, which I'm sure there are a few out there. The way PP operates, there is very little that the seller can do to prove that they are the ones taken for a ride. The only satisfaction you might get from this will be from the authorities. You really should file a police report with the Vic Police.

[mato123]

I can see how easily both seller and buyer can scam the other side with this method (sending a fake but providing genuine receipt / warranty card as a proof). I think the eBay / PP history should weight in when it comes to claims like this.

It looks like somebody googled his employer. I would call his office and ask to speak to him. Then I would tell him that I know where he works and that the police / layer will pay him a visit at work. You never know.

[yxc145]

Originally Posted by roach7

As expected, robot PayPal is allowing the scammer to return the "fake" watch to me

that sucks.
Once you receive the package, do a counter claim that he sent back a fake watch, not a watch that you shipped or saying that it is damaged. This is when you can try to fight to get your money back. This is your only chance with Ebay and Paypal.

[yxc145]

Originally Posted by Tony64

There's still the remotest of possibilities that this is simply buyer's remorse, or some sort of misunderstanding, and the buyer ships your watch back and not a box of rocks.

If it's the scam that we all suspect, I'm not sure that fighting PayPal will do more than ratchet up your anger and anxiety. You can call a lawyer and spend more money or move on and consider it the price of a lesson learned. It sucks, I realize, but despite best wishes and wholehearted support for a fair resolution, it's still ultimately your word against his. Unless he's demonstrated a pattern of such behavior, I don't see how you'll prevail. Hope I'm proven wrong.

If the buyer/scammer sent back and box or rocks or an empty box, that will actually be good. As you counter and file a claim against the buyer for not shipping back the original item. If the scammer sent back a fake watch, that's what makes it difficult because that's the exact claim he sent to Paypal.

[roach7]

Originally Posted by yxc145

that sucks.
Once you receive the package, do a counter claim that he sent back a fake watch, not a watch that you shipped or saying that it is damaged. This is when you can try to fight to get your money back. This is your only chance with Ebay and Paypal.

I wish it was so easy... I spoke to PayPal and they said I have no appeals rights if the buyers ships back what he claims he received. PayPal also says to consider my self lucky that the buyer didn't file a chargeback directly with his credit card and not obligated to ship anything back at all; plus PayPal will hit me with a chargeback fee. They also said this is the risk of selling goods online.

[CorradoBrit]

The chargeback on my CC (Citicard) is provisional. Unless the item is returned with proof of delivery the chargeback is reversed.

This is a no win situation for the seller unless the buyer has had previous history of claiming fraudulent deliveries. I would like to know how recent the buyers account was established on PP. Did he actually link to a CC? If he's new he could be just setting up accounts, scamming sellers and moving on, set up a new account and repeating the process. What was the buyers Ebay history?

[wongwong5]

I would fight it with ebay, paypal, get more evidence from AD, etc. Thats not right at all.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by roach7

I wish it was so easy... I spoke to PayPal and they said I have no appeals rights if the buyers ships back what he claims he received. PayPal also says to consider my self lucky that the buyer didn't file a chargeback directly with his credit card and not obligated to ship anything back at all; plus PayPal will hit me with a chargeback fee. They also said this is the risk of selling goods online.

has the buyer contact info been confirmed by pp and/or ebay? is the buyer verified and is the phone number still in service?

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

This really sucks! I can't believe the lack of common sense from paypal, you have 3108 positive feedbacks and a 100% rating on eBay. Just plan stupidity and(like said above), a robot lazy a$$ approach by Paypal. I'm seriously considering dumping paypal, this hasn't happened to me yet but it is just a matter of time it seems.....

Can you post the link to your ebay add? Another concern for you now may be if you use "stock" photos, and there is a serial visible in your link photos, it's not going to match the actual watch and warranty card you sold..

Are you going to answer this?

[yxc145]

Originally Posted by roach7

I wish it was so easy... I spoke to PayPal and they said I have no appeals rights if the buyers ships back what he claims he received. PayPal also says to consider my self lucky that the buyer didn't file a chargeback directly with his credit card and not obligated to ship anything back at all; plus PayPal will hit me with a chargeback fee. They also said this is the risk of selling goods online.

That is some Horse sxxt response. You know what!! If I were you, I will play dirty, too. Said that the buyer/scammer did not ship anything back at all. What you received is an empty box. Say that the box is not the same one you shipped to him, say it is missing the original warranty card, the manual, etc.
Then you have a case! now it is your word against his. He can't prove it. Like I said, this is your only chance to get some of your money back.

(disclaimer: I am not encouraging you to do anything illegal).

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Are you going to answer this?

agree.

it was an own goal when this was disclosed.

[roach7]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Are you going to answer this?

Ah sorry, I missed this. Here's the actual eBay listing, I normally blur the serial numbers...

www.ebay.com/itm/162671800747

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by roach7

Ah sorry, I missed this. Here's the actual eBay listing, I normally blur the serial numbers...

www.ebay.com/itm/162671800747

actual item images?