Why is VC in the holy trinity?

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by GB-man

We really have a lot of damn fools amongst us. Hard to escape it because the Rolex brand just draws them in like flies on

I grew up on a farm

[Gui Gui]

Originally Posted by Luther89

No one raps about VC because they’re not popular - why is Rolex considered possibly THE watch brand? Because they are WANTED (whether people agree with it or not). VC is not wanted by many at all

Who do you think sells more suits, Armani or Gieves & Hawkes? Which do you think a 'rapper' is more likely to sing about or wear on their day in court?

[Cabaiguan]

Originally Posted by somebodyy

Cabaiguan what a great response!



Please elaborate what the membership length has to do with knowledge?

I chalk it up to being old and cranky and seeing a mass of new members, albeit 6hrs is a record, with your condescending, know-it-all attitude. It’s not really about WHAT you’re saying, but HOW you’re saying it. If you can’t acknowledge that there’s a better way to start a conversation than, “Do you actually know some watch history?”, then you’ll fit right in with the new kids on the block.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dmb359]

Originally Posted by srvrf

Wow, people need to separate the historical “holy trinity” of watchmaking from a current “popularity trinity” or “value retention” trinity?

The Holy Trinity of Swiss watchmaking is a historical designation to three Swiss watchmakers that have been around a long time (VC the longest) and have made very complicated and hand finished watches showing their advanced abilities. This isn’t to say that other companies don’t make great watches, just not for as long as these three. Rolex makes great tool watches with many associated innovations. They’re mass-produced, relatively simple, but robust movements hidden behind solid casebacks. Their most complicated movements are in the YM2 and Skydweller which are both relatively recent. VC has had the most complicated watch title in the past (as has Patek) and now has this to show off its watchmaking ability. Other than Patek and AP, who else has been doing this for 100 plus years?

agreed. I love all three holy trinity brands, as well as Bruguet, ALS, Rolex, etc. All make (or have made) some killer watches.

Holy Trinity doesn't mean it's your holy grail watches, just a term representing those 3 watchmakers due to all the above mentioned history. It doesn't make their current lineup superior to other high end watch lineups. Put whatever you want in your holy grail watches, whether they be Holy Trinity or not.

While VC may not be part of the "popularity trinity" or the "value retention trinity" right now (which is a plus for some people), they certainly make some amazing pieces.

Who knows where the market will be 10 years from now anyways. Everyone's grails may have shifted...

[iliketime]

Originally Posted by Luther89

No one raps about VC because they’re not popular - why is Rolex considered possibly THE watch brand? Because they are WANTED (whether people agree with it or not). VC is not wanted by many at all

have the be quite the accomplished lyricist to rhyme something with vacheron constantine, even PP has been featured in songs

[RobJordan]

So much history with Vacheron.

Originally Posted by beshannon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacheron_Constantin

https://www.theceomagazine.com/busin...on-constantin/

https://www.hautehorlogerie.org/en/b...on-constantin/

[RobearH]

Originally Posted by iliketime

have the be quite the accomplished lyricist to rhyme something with vacheron constantine, even PP has been featured in songs

Its easy, that B is sleazy but she copped me a VC up in this heazy!

[iliketime]

Originally Posted by RobearH

Its easy, that B is sleazy but she copped me a VC up in this heazy!

it doesnt roll off as well as Audemars. and of course rap song for rap song, rolex is low hanging fruit.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by iliketime

it doesnt roll off as well as Audemars. and of course rap song for rap song, rolex is low hanging fruit.

There is either a travis scott or migos song that says "vacheron over phillipe." But they pronounce vacheron vok er on lol

[steeevvvooo]

One of the few watches I regret selling is a Vacheron. Shares a base movement with the ROC I believe but is incredibly unloved and I paid about $11k back in 2018. I traded against a Patek after a few months and having worn it less than half a dozen times. The Patek didn't last long but is not missed, however, I wish I still had this bad boy.



Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[mickyd329]

Originally Posted by baamvino

AP...I mean RO is so overrated.

You obviously haven't owned an RO.

[somebodyy]

Well from a design standpoint it’s great (but only the 15202 and few older chronographs) but in terms of quality there are equal and better for less.

It is overrated just like the Nautilus, Daytona and Aquanaut.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I grew up on a farm

That’s a good thing Brian

[Peterandwatches]

It depends on the definition of Holy Trinity. Some here believe that, by definition, it is the three brands, and that is the case forever and ever and ever. Others believe that is a rotation of the top 3 brands from both a commercial and critical perspective.

If the first definition, there is no arguing - it's PP, AP, and VC, and that's all there is to it. If the second definition, I could see an argument for a Lange, etc, replacing VC.

It's actually quite similar to someone asking who is on Mount Rushmore vs. who are the top 4 Presidents?

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by mickyd329

You obviously haven't owned an RO.

And you’ve arrived at that conclusion how exactly?

[DoraTheExplorerII]

Originally Posted by baamvino

AP...I mean RO is so overrated.

This is a true statement because the RO, as nice as it is, does not warrant a grey market premium or an AD waiting list (mostly caused by social media/influencers and lowered supply)

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by GB-man

That’s a good thing Brian

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[Justindo]

If the holy trinity is to remain Swiss with an unbroken long lineage and hand finishing to various degrees, AP, PP and VC aren't going anywhere, even if ALS and certain independents make better watches and in far fewer numbers than all three.

If anything, VC has been on the ascent over the last decade or two in terms of quality and innovation while the other two have slipped precipitously if measured by these two criteria, even if their popularity and resale values are up. Keep in mind that your typical Royal Oak and Nautilus/Aquanaut buyer is essentially the same as your typical Rolex buyer, albeit with a little more disposable income and with a better pulse on fashion and trends.

[Pongster]

^ I agree

Maybe, ALS should just form its own Heilige Dreifaltigkeit. Maybe with GO and UG.

And Seiko can also do the same. Form its own Seisanmiittai with Citizen and Casio.

[TJMike]

Originally Posted by Peterandwatches

It depends on the definition of Holy Trinity. Some here believe that, by definition, it is the three brands, and that is the case forever and ever and ever. Others believe that is a rotation of the top 3 brands from both a commercial and critical perspective.

If the first definition, there is no arguing - it's PP, AP, and VC, and that's all there is to it. If the second definition, I could see an argument for a Lange, etc, replacing VC.

It's actually quite similar to someone asking who is on Mount Rushmore vs. who are the top 4 Presidents?

Well if we are talking about a commercial perspective, Lange does not belong in the Trinity. VC is profitable; Lange is not.

[Justindo]

Originally Posted by Pongster

^ I agree

Maybe, ALS should just form its own Heilige Dreifaltigkeit. Maybe with GO and UG.

And Seiko can also do the same. Form its own Seisanmiittai with Citizen and Casio.

Good idea! ALS, GO (not quite ALS quality but they make superbly finished watches for the price) and Lang and Heyne would make a formidable German troika. And Grand Seiko, much like Lexus, makes superbly finished, if not terribly exciting, watches that show what the Japanese can do.

Originally Posted by TJMike

Well if we are talking about a commercial perspective, Lange does not belong in the Trinity. VC is profitable; Lange is not.

That makes Lange all the more awesome, in my opinion.

FYI, I own several watches from ALS, PP, and VC (and Breguet and JLC too), so I don't have a single dog in this fight.

[somebodyy]

Originally Posted by Justindo

Good idea! ALS, GO (not quite ALS quality but they make superbly finished watches for the price) and Lang and Heyne would make a formidable German troika.

As much as I like GO I think Moritz Grossmann is the brand that'd hold a place in this troika.

[mickyd329]

Originally Posted by PJ S

And you’ve arrived at that conclusion how exactly?

Does it matter? He's seems to be Rolex only guy judging by his signature..

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by somebodyy

As much as I like GO I think Moritz Grossmann is the brand that'd hold a place in this troika.

As much as MG are a great manufacture (practically on a par with L&H), GO deserves its place in the German Horological Trinity through longevity and contributions.
FWIW, Mirko Heyne hasn’t been with the company he set up with Marco Lang since 2003, and Marco has recently walked away from it too.
Maybe L&H’s days are numbered, although one hopes that won’t be the case – it’ll simply be business as usual.

Originally Posted by mickyd329

Does it matter?

Of course it matters. You do not know, with any degree of certainty, what the member has had or could have, but chooses not to, for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by mickyd329

He's seems to be Rolex only guy judging by his signature..

And?
Jumping to conclusions without any basis in fact.
You need to appreciate that not everyone who has/had a RO can only ever be enthralled and any deviation from that state is invalid.

[Plastique999]

Originally Posted by Juan Luis

Vacheron is tops along with Patek, in my opinion. But, I would switch Jaeger in, and Audemars, I mean Royal Oak, out!

I would add JLC as well as their creation of over 1200 movements is incredible and they supplied movements to all 3 in the holy trinity.


Sent from my Zeitwerk

[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by iliketime

have the be quite the accomplished lyricist to rhyme something with vacheron constantine, even PP has been featured in songs

I wear my Vacheron Constantine ,
driving my dream machine .

Picking up the pretty ladies ,
Seeing al their smiling faces ...

[improviz]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

I was in the middle of responding with the same sentiment. The RO does have a place in history, specifically helping shape the modern day sports watch. But in no way should that qualify AP as a "holy trinity" member. Historically, Breguet are much more relevant and impactful to horology. From a modern day perspective, AP rarely innovate and are generally outclassed by Lange.

Care to back this up with a relative list of innovations, accomplishments, and patents for each of the two companies (Breguet and AP)? AP has a pretty impressive list of them.

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by improviz

Care to back this up with a relative list of innovations, accomplishments, and patents for each of the two companies (Breguet and AP)? AP has a pretty impressive list of them.

The original A.L. Breguet invented the tourbillon, shock protection, the hugely influential natural escapement, started the use of guilloché for watch dials, and one of the first chronographs, among other things. The late Nicolas Hayek bought Breguet (which has been in continuous production since its founding) with the intention of fully restoring it to glory. Modern Breguet has more innovation and patents than any other high-end brand, with a ton of patents for things such as magnetic pivots in the GPHG grand prize winning 7727 Classique Chronometrie and magnetic regulators for minute a minute repeater, as well as new escapements (at least one of these is in development currently). I guess you can research it if you want to know more.

[jag32]

Originally Posted by kunlun

The original A.L. Breguet invented the tourbillon, shock protection, the hugely influential natural escapement, started the use of guilloché for watch dials, and one of the first chronographs, among other things. The late Nicolas Hayek bought Breguet (which has been in continuous production since its founding) with the intention of fully restoring it to glory. Modern Breguet has more innovation and patents than any other high-end brand, with a ton of patents for things such as magnetic pivots in the GPHG grand prize winning 7727 Classique Chronometrie and magnetic regulators for minute a minute repeater, as well as new escapements (at least one of these is in development currently). I guess you can research it if you want to know more.

This is great, but my understanding is that the modern Breguet is completely different company than the original Breguet.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by jag32

This is great, but my understanding is that the modern Breguet is completely different company than the original Breguet.

Breguet has changed ownership a couple of times (especially since the quartz crisis), but they have a clear, direct history and are the same company.