RSC did an unauthorized switch of Bezel Inserts

[116710er]

Found this nice little chart from TRF Member Alpino:



The F4 inserts for various references.

[214270Explorer]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Isn’t the Lititz RSC essentially a ‘training’ center for future Rolex watchmakers? I would never send my watch there for that reason alone.

Just what I wuz gonna post.

[037]

Originally Posted by 116710er

037, I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I hadn't even considered the 16600 in this entire process. So I did some googling and found this:

14060 36.55mm Outside Diameter; 29.7 inner diameter
16660 36.65mm Outside Diameter; 29.7 inner diameter

So if this is accurate, it totally makes sense...if the inserts that RSC provided were 16600 inserts, it would fit over the crystal of the 14060 but it wouldn't go into the bezel. I just compared my old 14060 picts to my 16600 and seems like the 16600 and 14060 have very similar looking fonts but the 4's are slightly different. I do remember thinking that the "4" didn't look quite right and now I know why...

Thanks for the measurements. I couldn't remember the exact numbers when I posted but recalled the 16600 (and 16660) inserts were just a shade bigger. 0.10mm would certainly be enough to prevent it from pressing into your bezel.

I bet they found a 16600 insert.

[037]

Originally Posted by ronricks

Isn’t the Lititz RSC essentially a ‘training’ center for future Rolex watchmakers? I would never send my watch there for that reason alone.

Originally Posted by 037

Downstairs is the training center for both students and those gaining Rolex certs. Upstairs is the RSC, where students have absolutely no access granted. The chance of a student working on a customer's watch is zero.

Lititz RSC is where Rolex USA sends nearly all 4030/4130 calibers for service.

Originally Posted by 214270Explorer

Just what I wuz gonna post.

I answered that above.

[116710er]

Adventures with RSC, volume 14,392 or wherever we're at...

So I finally got my 14060 back from RSC a couple weeks ago. So apparently, these inserts are bit more rare than people may think. RSC was only able to source ONE insert. With the other "F4" inserts, they had several and sent the two best ones they had. Since that wasn't the case with the 14060 "F4", I had no choice but to take this insert.

It's not bad but there are a few rub marks. The marks are visible at certain angles. They're in-between the 40 and 50 marker and there's one around the 10 marker. They look like rub went through the black anodizing a little bit so they look like dark gray "streaks" at certain angles and certain lighting (more visible in sunlight). Not sure how these scuffs came to be but it doesn't look like normal wear.

There also various micro scratches and dents all over but only visible if you use a loupe. I would definitely have preferred my original insert over this one.

RSC did me a favor and added a nice 3/8" long scratch on the crystal. They did me an additional "favor" by adding a scrape like dent on the inner edge of the bezel itself (you can see it from about the 43 minute to 45 minute marker).

I'm going to contact RSC yet again and see if I can get these issues resolved.

[HERITAGE82]

Originally Posted by 116710er

Adventures with RSC, volume 14,392 or wherever we're at...

So I finally got my 14060 back from RSC a couple weeks ago. So apparently, these inserts are bit more rare than people may think. RSC was only able to source ONE insert. With the other "F4" inserts, they had several and sent the two best ones they had. Since that wasn't the case with the 14060 "F4", I had no choice but to take this insert.

It's not bad but there are a few rub marks. The marks are visible at certain angles. They're in-between the 40 and 50 marker and there's one around the 10 marker. They look like rub went through the black anodizing a little bit so they look like dark gray "streaks" at certain angles and certain lighting (more visible in sunlight). Not sure how these scuffs came to be but it doesn't look like normal wear.

There also various micro scratches and dents all over but only visible if you use a loupe. I would definitely have preferred my original insert over this one.

RSC did me a favor and added a nice 3/8" long scratch on the crystal. They did me an additional "favor" by adding a scrape like dent on the inner edge of the bezel itself (you can see it from about the 43 minute to 45 minute marker).
I'm going to contact RSC yet again and see if I can get these issues resolved.

[stanleyleecm]

Woo, sorry to hear that.

[116710er]

And to top it off, the watch apparently still has an issue where sometimes, after setting the time, it continues to hack even after I screwed down the crown. Sometimes it'll run for a few second and then stop, sometimes it constantly hacks. It will start back up as soon as loosen the crown a little. Re-tightening the crown doesn't affect it after it starts up again.

At first I thought maybe I was tightening the crown too much (??) but I just figured out how to repeat this issue. It seem that when you adjust the time and then you put a little clockwise pressure on the crown as you push it in and screw it down, it causes this one little "trick" to happen. Not 100% repeatable but I'd say 70% of the time. I guess that's just how I set my watches. Maybe it's just a "feature" of this movement and something that is not correctable but I've never had this issue with any other watch (Rolex modern, vintage or any other brand for that matter).

As for the damage, I don't see either flaw in any of the photos I took of the watch previously (I looked at ALL of them dating back a couple years). RSC's own notes don't mention either flaw...although they did previously note a micro tick bite on the edge of the crystal (which I knew was there). I can't imagine they missed a big ol' scratch on the face of the crystal but who knows.

I spoke with RSC and they're going to take a close look at all the infil/exfil photos of my 14060 (they should have a nice library of photos by now) to see if the scratch on the crystal and the scrape/dent along the inner edge of the bezel were previously there. I suppose it's entirely possible that I never noticed the scratch on the crystal and maybe the bezel scrape/dent was also already there but in a different position which make less obvious...afterall, at this point, I think RSC has had it in its possession longer than I have so I might not be remembering the flaws on this watch...lol...?

[eddie_b]

This is really embarrassing on their end but I'm not surprised. I work with watches for a living and used to be across the street from the Beverly Hills Service Center. Everyone thinks they're amazing just because they're Rolex but the truth is, with the exception of a few people there, their watchmakers aren't really that good. To their credit Rolex watches are sturdy and easy to service but they can still mess it up on the service side.

Rolex purposely do that because they don't want their watchmakers to become too good and leave. So they essentially have an assembly line there, watchmaker 1 disassembles the movements all day, watchmaker 2 does something else all day, etc. The watchmakers (again with a few exceptions) do not take a "holistic" approach where they do everything on a watch.

I recently bought a new Omega for myself and it had some lint under the crystal. Since it was new I didn't want to open it myself or have my watchmaker do it. I sent it back to the authorized dealer and they sent it back with scratches on the bezel (from the tool which pops it off) and they also introduced some dings to the caseback where the tool grabs on to open. Really pissed me off because that's extreme negligence and even I wouldn't do that and I'm not a trained watchmaker.

Just goes to show that because there's a big name behind it, it doesn't mean they'll do it right. If you still need help with the movement issue let me know and I can ask my watchmaker about it.

[116710er]

Alrighty, this may possibly be the last chapter in this horological drama. I finally received my 14060 back from RSC. They once again re-serviced it (so now it's had three services in the span of a little less than two years). They replace the bezel at no charge and replaced the crystal with a LEC crystal (the original was a non-LEC) at half price...I offered to pay for half on the crystal since it was already scuffed a little and it had a small micro-nick on the edge. The watch looks essentially brand new.

The problem with the watch continuing to hack after the crown has been screwed down is still present. They stated that some sort of lever was replaced and another part but apparently that didn't solve the problem so this will just have to be considered a "special trick" of the Caliber 3000. If I can find another Caliber 3000 equipped 14060 (or a 14270 I suppose), I'd love to be able to check and see if they exhibit this same "one weird trick".

I put it my Timegrapher and it seems that the amplitude has been increased even more. Compared to the 2nd service, it looks like whatever RSC did finally brought this 3000 caliber up to the amplitude I was expecting.


THIRD SERVICE
DU: 0 / 315 / 0.0
DD: +0.5 / 313 / 0.0
CU: +4 / 281 / 0.1
CD: -1.5 / 276 / 0.1
CR: +3 / 276 / 0.1
CL: 0.5 / 278 / 0.0
----------------------
AVG: +1.1 / 289.8 / 0.05

For comparison, here's what I got on the 1st and 2nd service.:

FIRST SERVICE (this was the problem that started it all)
DU: +6 / 236 / 0.3
DD: +1 / 238 / 0.1
CU: +4 / 203 / 0.4
CD: +6 / 199 / 0.0
CR: +1 / 201 / 0.3
CL: +8 / 194 / 0.1
----------------------
AVG: +4.3 / 211.8 / 0.21

SECOND SERVICE
DU: +2 / 281 / 0.0
DD: 0 / 286 / 0.1
CU: +4 / 249 / 0.0
CD: -1 / 246 / 0.2
CR: +1 / 244 / 0.0
CL: 0 / 249 / 0.2
----------------------
AVG: +1.0 / 258.7/ 0.08


Overall, this entire drama was a serious PITA despite the service cost refund and no-cost/minimal cost parts replacements, I would have been much happier if RSC had just done this right the first time. In retrospect, I probably should have just had my local independent do the service for a little more money as they seem to be more detail orientated on individual watches rather than RSC's "conveyor belt, one size fits all, customer doesn't know the difference" style of servicing. At least now my 14060 looks more or less like it originally did but in better condition. The movement's "one weird trick" hacking feature is annoying but I guess I'll just have to live with it...unless I find out that it only happens on my 14060...but hopefully...fin...

[maxbelg]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

As a complete tangent to the OP's issue, it's interesting you raise these 'rules' of business.

There are many good reasons and well written articles documenting why the customer is not always right, and shouldn't be treated as such

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theyec/.../#3acd1fa31f68

This article on Forbes sums up the main arguments, with number four (Not all customers are worth keeping) being undeniably true sometimes

I agree with this

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by 116710er

Alrighty, this may possibly be the last chapter in this horological drama. I finally received my 14060 back from RSC. They once again re-serviced it (so now it's had three services in the span of a little less than two years). They replace the bezel at no charge and replaced the crystal with a LEC crystal (the original was a non-LEC) at half price...I offered to pay for half on the crystal since it was already scuffed a little and it had a small micro-nick on the edge. The watch looks essentially brand new.

The problem with the watch continuing to hack after the crown has been screwed down is still present. They stated that some sort of lever was replaced and another part but apparently that didn't solve the problem so this will just have to be considered a "special trick" of the Caliber 3000. If I can find another Caliber 3000 equipped 14060 (or a 14270 I suppose), I'd love to be able to check and see if they exhibit this same "one weird trick".

I put it my Timegrapher and it seems that the amplitude has been increased even more. Compared to the 2nd service, it looks like whatever RSC did finally brought this 3000 caliber up to the amplitude I was expecting.


THIRD SERVICE
DU: 0 / 315 / 0.0
DD: +0.5 / 313 / 0.0
CU: +4 / 281 / 0.1
CD: -1.5 / 276 / 0.1
CR: +3 / 276 / 0.1
CL: 0.5 / 278 / 0.0
----------------------
AVG: +1.1 / 289.8 / 0.05

For comparison, here's what I got on the 1st and 2nd service.:

FIRST SERVICE (this was the problem that started it all)
DU: +6 / 236 / 0.3
DD: +1 / 238 / 0.1
CU: +4 / 203 / 0.4
CD: +6 / 199 / 0.0
CR: +1 / 201 / 0.3
CL: +8 / 194 / 0.1
----------------------
AVG: +4.3 / 211.8 / 0.21

SECOND SERVICE
DU: +2 / 281 / 0.0
DD: 0 / 286 / 0.1
CU: +4 / 249 / 0.0
CD: -1 / 246 / 0.2
CR: +1 / 244 / 0.0
CL: 0 / 249 / 0.2
----------------------
AVG: +1.0 / 258.7/ 0.08


Overall, this entire drama was a serious PITA despite the service cost refund and no-cost/minimal cost parts replacements, I would have been much happier if RSC had just done this right the first time. In retrospect, I probably should have just had my local independent do the service for a little more money as they seem to be more detail orientated on individual watches rather than RSC's "conveyor belt, one size fits all, customer doesn't know the difference" style of servicing. At least now my 14060 looks more or less like it originally did but in better condition. The movement's "one weird trick" hacking feature is annoying but I guess I'll just have to live with it...unless I find out that it only happens on my 14060...but hopefully...fin...

The readings from the first service are worrying, shouldn't have left the workshop like that.

The second one has very good results and I don't know why you think that is not the case. Higher amplitude does not equal better above a certain point.

The third one is out of spec, amplitudes above 300 are out of tolerance on the 30×× calibers... I don't think it will cause an issue, except maybe if you wind it every morning and are very active during the day, then overbanking might be a risk.

[116710er]

Originally Posted by SearChart

The third one is out of spec, amplitudes above 300 are out of tolerance on the 30×× calibers... I don't think it will cause an issue, except maybe if you wind it every morning and are very active during the day, then overbanking might be a risk.

Well I'm not sure what RSC did or why. It's not like they ever explain anything. As for the amplitude, I generally don't wind it in the morning. I'll just put it on and wear it. I'm not overly active (especially nowadays) so hopefully it'll be OK.

RSC extended the warranty so I'll just have to keep an eye on it and put it on the timegrapher every so often and make sure it's not doing anything wonky.

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by eddie_b

This is really embarrassing on their end but I'm not surprised. I work with watches for a living and used to be across the street from the Beverly Hills Service Center. Everyone thinks they're amazing just because they're Rolex but the truth is, with the exception of a few people there, their watchmakers aren't really that good. To their credit Rolex watches are sturdy and easy to service but they can still mess it up on the service side.

Rolex purposely do that because they don't want their watchmakers to become too good and leave. So they essentially have an assembly line there, watchmaker 1 disassembles the movements all day, watchmaker 2 does something else all day, etc. The watchmakers (again with a few exceptions) do not take a "holistic" approach where they do everything on a watch.

I recently bought a new Omega for myself and it had some lint under the crystal. Since it was new I didn't want to open it myself or have my watchmaker do it. I sent it back to the authorized dealer and they sent it back with scratches on the bezel (from the tool which pops it off) and they also introduced some dings to the caseback where the tool grabs on to open. Really pissed me off because that's extreme negligence and even I wouldn't do that and I'm not a trained watchmaker.

Just goes to show that because there's a big name behind it, it doesn't mean they'll do it right. If you still need help with the movement issue let me know and I can ask my watchmaker about it.

One could argue that the people working in an assembly line workplace aren't really watchmakers at all, but rather 'trained technicians'.
Sadly this is the way it is headed for a lot of larger brands and service centers...

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by 116710er

Well I'm not sure what RSC did or why. It's not like they ever explain anything. As for the amplitude, I generally don't wind it in the morning. I'll just put it on and wear it. I'm not overly active (especially nowadays) so hopefully it'll be OK.

RSC extended the warranty so I'll just have to keep an eye on it and put it on the timegrapher every so often and make sure it's not doing anything wonky.

I really hope it is sorted for good now. I've seldom seen such a sh#t show happen..

[jay_kay]

Ignore. Just read the full thread.

[bncapass1]

On a similar note, does anyone know what the cost is of a Pepsi insert for a 16700 from RSC ? When I bought mine used, the previous owner installed a Coke insert which is not correct for the 16700. Is the procedure to bring it to an AD and they ship it to a RSC? I'm assuming the shipping and insurance costs are also involved. Also, could there be any issues with the Coke insert where RSC will refuse to install?

[116710er]

Originally Posted by bncapass1

On a similar note, does anyone know what the cost is of a Pepsi insert for a 16700 from RSC ? When I bought mine used, the previous owner installed a Coke insert which is not correct for the 16700. Is the procedure to bring it to an AD and they ship it to a RSC? I'm assuming the shipping and insurance costs are also involved. Also, could there be any issues with the Coke insert where RSC will refuse to install?

The cost quoted to me for the 14060 (the insert I DIDN'T want to change) was $48.00 plus tax. I would imagine the GMT insert is probably the same or not much more.

Personally, I would buy one of those junk inserts on Amazon (in any color) and take it into RSC and ask them to install the correct insert for that reference/serial. That way you can keep the Coke and RSC will install the correct one. It might be a little more since I think the $48 price is with a core trade in but you can probably sell the Coke separately for more than the core exchange price.

It's sad that you have to go these lengths for RSC to just allow you to keep YOUR parts.

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by 116710er

...It's sad that you have to go these lengths for RSC to just allow you to keep YOUR parts.

The standard price is the exchange (discounted) price. You can pay 50% extra ('the full price') to keep your old insert.

What you can't have is a discount and keep your old part.

[116710er]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

What you can't have is a discount and keep your old part.

Yeah, I mentioned that...

Originally Posted by 116710er

It might be a little more since I think the $48 price is with a core trade in...

Originally Posted by watchmaker

The standard price is the exchange (discounted) price. You can pay 50% extra ('the full price') to keep your old insert.

I've experience instances where RSC insisted that I couldn't keep old parts. Guess it depends on who you get. This is why I'd rather sacrifice an aftermarket part if you want to keep your old parts rather than expect them to do the right thing and let you keep your old parts.

[SOG DIVER]

CW21 non-RSC outside watchmakers unless the watch is new in warranty.
Not my 1960 gilt pcg 5512 Submariner, thanks.