My 1963 GMT 1675 with Silver Dial?

[Erpin]

With the current lull in the pandemic, its best i travel now considering the chances of a lock down is quite remote at the moment. Its also a a great time to travel to Europe during the spring season. Met with Laurent Ponti and Roy Davidoff today. Both gentlemen have some of the best vintage watches for sale here in Geneva.


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[Styles Bitchley]

Ponti usually has great stuff. Ask for a tour of the private museum when you’re at HQ. They’ve never let me in, but you may have more success with that hen’s tooth on your wrist. Have fun.

[lee fowler]

Any updates?

[Erpin]

I have an appointment tomorrow at 3pm


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[FrenchBigCrown]

Originally Posted by Erpin

I have an appointment tomorrow at 3pm


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Good luck.

[Erpin]

Btw, i bought today the new Tudor 58 in blue at the Paris AD. Very nice watch to wear.




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[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by Erpin

Btw, i bought today the new Tudor 58 in blue at the Paris AD. Very nice watch to wear.

Looking good! But oh the anticipation for the verdict on the GMT. Good luck! I'm leaning towards rare and original.

[LJubel328]

Originally Posted by Erpin

Btw, i bought today the new Tudor 58 in blue at the Paris AD. Very nice watch to wear.




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It is a great watch. I don't wear mine all too often but it is amazing for the price.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by LJubel328

It is a great watch. I don't wear mine all too often but it is amazing for the price.

Tudor getting there - but that clasp is just way too big for the rest of the Bb58 mid-case imho....so I sold mine within a month of buying it !

[PVR]

On any original dial I have tested with a geiger, the readings are far higher than 1.33. This to me is a bad sign that this was a later relume. Factory Radium was off the charts strong, the radium used in relumed dials was always weaker.

I still stand by my position that this dial is a very old refinished dial that was relumed with recycled radium. I also hope for Eric's sake that I am wrong and he gets the green light from Rolex as original because he will have a very seriously valuable timepiece.

I just dont think its legit. :(

[SS Oyster]

Getting excited!


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[Boaters]

Good luck in getting any sleep. WOW this has me Sleepless Good luck Eric hope it works out. Either way, it is a beauty and what a pleasure to wear. The best of luck to you

[Erpin]

I just came from the Heritage Department and their technician took the watch for close inspection. After which he informed me that they will accept my watch for a thorough inspection and a service quote. I informed him that i only want a movement overhaul and not to do anything with the cosmetic appearance of the watch. I inquired about the dial and he said they don’t have a silver on their data base so mine could be a special order. He added that he will not accept the watch for a quotation if he sees any part that is counterfeit. Quotation will be emailed in 2 weeks.


During inspection


Acceptance letter of Rolex


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[lee fowler]

Originally Posted by Erpin

I just came from the Heritage Department and their technician took the watch for close inspection. After which he informed me that they will accept my watch for a thorough inspection and a service quote. I informed him that i only want a movement overhaul and not to do anything with the cosmetic appearance of the watch. I inquired about the dial and he said they don’t have a silver on their data base so mine could be a special order. He added that he will not accept the watch for a quotation if he sees any part that is counterfeit. Quotation will be emailed in 2 weeks.


During inspection


Acceptance letter of Rolex


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That sounds like great news!

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Erpin

During inspection

Nice. My RSC (Tokyo) has a very strict no-photography rule. I once took a snap in there on my iPhone, and a zealous security guard rushed over and demanded I delete it immediately.

Seems different RSCs may have different policies...

[Dan S]

That's unfortunate, "could be a special order" is not a very strong endorsement. Since you are already leaving the watch with them, I think it would be greatly preferable to have an actual letter of authentication for the dial from Rolex, even if there is an extra charge for the research.

The notion that it is "authentic by default" if they accept it for service will always leave uncertainty, because we know of many examples of watches with questionable parts that have been serviced by Rolex. Personally, if I were a potential buyer, I would not accept the fact that it had been serviced by Rolex as equivalent to an authentication.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That's unfortunate, "could be a special order" is not a very strong endorsement. Since you are already leaving the watch with them, I think it would be greatly preferable to have an actual letter of authentication for the dial from Rolex, even if there is an extra charge for the research.

The notion that it is "authentic by default" if they accept it for service will always leave uncertainty, because we know of many examples of watches with questionable parts that have been serviced by Rolex. Personally, if I were a potential buyer, I would not accept the fact that it had been serviced by Rolex as equivalent to an authentication.

The difference here, however, is that this is the Rolex Heritage Department, which deals specifically with vintage and presumably has much more expertise. This isn't a random RSC that might have missed a fake bezel insert on a vintage Sub they serviced.

While perhaps not definitive proof of complete authenticity, the fact that they have accepted the watch for service is at a minimum a very good sign for Eric.

[Erpin]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That's unfortunate, "could be a special order" is not a very strong endorsement. Since you are already leaving the watch with them, I think it would be greatly preferable to have an actual letter of authentication for the dial from Rolex, even if there is an extra charge for the research.

The notion that it is "authentic by default" if they accept it for service will always leave uncertainty, because we know of many examples of watches with questionable parts that have been serviced by Rolex. Personally, if I were a potential buyer, I would not accept the fact that it had been serviced by Rolex as equivalent to an authentication.

The problem with Rolex is they don’t issue extract of archives or authentication letters because i inquired about. Accepting the watch for servicing or restoration is more than enough for them to tell you ( but not in writing ) that the watch is original. I guess it gives them an “ escape clause “ just in case they need it.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Dan S

That's unfortunate, "could be a special order" is not a very strong endorsement. Since you are already leaving the watch with them, I think it would be greatly preferable to have an actual letter of authentication for the dial from Rolex, even if there is an extra charge for the research.

"Could be a special order" shows that the OP most likely did not speak to a vintage expert at Rolex in Acacias (Geneva), but to a Rolex watchmaker at the reception, where the OP took the shown photo. Normally their statements (vintage experts) are much more careful. At the HQ they don't deliver letters of authentication, I tried without success for a valuable vintage watch in 2020.

Originally Posted by Dan S

The notion that it is "authentic by default" if they accept it for service will always leave uncertainty, because we know of many examples of watches with questionable parts that have been serviced by Rolex.

I agree that "authentic by default" is a meaningless saying if it comes from some RSC, but not from Geneva HQ. They very carefully check such a delicate and probably valuable watch before they offer a service quote, and this takes some time!

Originally Posted by Dan S

Personally, if I were a potential buyer, I would not accept the fact that it had been serviced by Rolex as equivalent to an authentication.

I tend to disagree, if such a special watch was serviced by Rolex HQ in Geneva it is the best authentication you can find, imho. I trust them more than "original papers" or any other source.

What would worry me more is the claim that a "quotation will be emailed in 2 weeks". Based on my experience, this seems by far too short to perform an extensive inspection of such a special watch, which would take at least about 2 months in Geneva.

What is very good is the customer request, i.e. the list of things Rolex should NOT touch or do. This is very important.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by saxo3

I tend to disagree, if such a special watch was serviced by Rolex HQ in Geneva it is the best authentication you can find, imho. I trust them more than "original papers" or any other source.

As long as there are buyers like you who would trust the service as equivalent to an authentication, then I guess it is good enough.

[Erpin]

Originally Posted by saxo3

"Could be a special order" shows that the OP most likely did not speak to a vintage expert at Rolex in Acacias (Geneva), but to a Rolex watchmaker at the reception, where the OP took the shown photo. Normally their statements (vintage experts) are much more careful. At the HQ they don't deliver letters of authentication, I tried without success for a valuable vintage watch in 2020.


I agree that "authentic by default" is a meaningless saying if it comes from some RSC, but not from Geneva HQ. They very carefully check such a delicate and probably valuable watch before they offer a service quote, and this takes some time!


I tend to disagree, if such a special watch was serviced by Rolex HQ in Geneva it is the best authentication you can find, imho. I trust them more than "original papers" or any other source.

What would worry me more is the claim that a "quotation will be emailed in 2 weeks". Based on my experience, this seems by far too short to perform an extensive inspection of such a special watch, which would take at least about 2 months in Geneva.

What is very good is the customer request, i.e. the list of things Rolex should NOT touch or do. This is very important.

I am sure it will take them a few months for a quotation. My other watch took them 8 months to come up with a quotation!


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by swish77

The difference here, however, is that this is the Rolex Heritage Department, which deals specifically with vintage and presumably has much more expertise. This isn't a random RSC that might have missed the fact that a vintage Sub they serviced had a fake bezel insert.

You are absolutely right on this part.

Originally Posted by swish77

While perhaps not definitive proof of complete authenticity, the fact that they have accepted the watch for service is at a minimum a very good sign for Eric.

They have not yet accepted the watch for service! An expert will very carefully and in all detail inspect the watch. Only if everything is authentic then Rolex HQ will provide a service quote.

[Erpin]

Originally Posted by saxo3

You are absolutely right on this part.


They have not yet accepted the watch for service! An expert will very carefully and in all detail inspect the watch. Only if everything is authentic then Rolex HQ will provide a service quote.

That is the process. Someone first inspect the watch and if he is satisfied, he will accept it for a service quote where they will do a more diligent check of every part of the watch. Once it passes the stringent inspection, they will then issue a service quote. So I will just have to wait for a bit more i guess.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Erpin

That is the process. Someone first inspect the watch and if he is satisfied, he will accept it for a service quote where they will do a more diligent check of every part of the watch. Once it passes the stringent inspection, they will then issue a service quote. So I will just have to wait for a bit more i guess.

100 %. I see we both know by experience how it is done for such very nice and valuable vintage watches at Rolex HQ
In contrast to the other guy with his arrogant answer above

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by saxo3

100 %. I see we both know by experience how it is done for such very nice and valuable vintage watches at Rolex HQ
In contrast to the other guy with his arrogant answer above

If you are referring to me, I find your comment offensive and inappropriate. I was simply expressing my own personal opinion about the relative value of a Rolex service vs. written authentication, and subsequently noting that if potential buyers find the Rolex service sufficient, then it is de facto sufficient. You and others may agree or disagree (as Eric and Aaron did). However, there is no question that it's preferable to express your own opinion without denigrating the opinions of other, and it's certainly not appropriate to call people names simply because they expressed an opinion.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Dan S

If you are referring to me....

Yes, I received your answer (post #102) to me as an arrogant reply. If that was not intended from your side then I accept your explanations and propose to support this very interesting thread together in a friendly approach, with mutual respect.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Dan S

If you are referring to me, I find your comment offensive and inappropriate. I was simply expressing my own personal opinion about the relative value of a Rolex service vs. written authentication, and subsequently noting that if potential buyers find the Rolex service sufficient, then it is de facto sufficient. You and others may agree or disagree (as Eric and Aaron did). However, there is no question that it's preferable to express your own opinion without denigrating the opinions of other, and it's certainly not appropriate to call people names simply because they expressed an opinion.

You may wish to use the “ignore” button for him … I know many who have

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by saxo3

100 %. I see we both know by experience how it is done for such very nice and valuable vintage watches at Rolex HQ
In contrast to the other guy with his arrogant answer above

I personally do not think "the other guy's" response is offensive or arrogant. As an avid collector and very knowledgeable contributor to this forum his point is valid and was not conveyed in a rude or arrogant manner. Not that he needs me to defend his opinion but I will provide my own example.

I have a Tiffany branded GMT 1675/3 that my father purchased new from Tiffany in the early 1970s. My father told me straight out that he threw away the box and all the other stuff almost immediately after purchase. I don't have a receipt, nor do the previous services on this watch mention Tiffany & Co. dial. At one point two years ago I was considering having the watch serviced by Rolex. They required "authentication" prior to service and sent it out for a month to their Lititiz, PA facility. It came back with a service estimate with required and optional services, again with no mention of the Tiffany stamp. They don't describe the dial I was told.

The service estimate, while fine for many Rolex collectors or buyers to authenticate the watch as all Rolex parts, I have found is still not acceptable for the more critical collectors. Regardless of the authentication by Rolex or the service estimate, avid collectors would still see the watch dial as potentially fake because I do not have the receipt from Tiffany. I thought the authentication would help with the provenance of the watch, and that is the case for many but not all. There will always be a nagging doubt of authenticity from many hardcore collectors. It is what it is… and you taking offense to the comments is not warranted IMHO.

Still, this is a very interesting thread on an obviously rare watch and I will continue to follow this thread with high hopes that Eric's watch passes Geneva HQ's stringent examination. That said, I find it highly unlikely definitive proof will ever be given by Rolex. They just don't do that.

[swaini3]

I hope they dont include a new dial in their quote... That could be a bad sign. You wouldn't know if its due to it being too old or because they claim it as Aftermarket. That's what RSC does, maybe Geneva is different.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by swaini3

I hope they dont include a new dial in their quote... That could be a bad sign. You wouldn't know if its due to it being too old or because they claim it as Aftermarket. That's what RSC does, maybe Geneva is different.

Yes, Geneva is different and I expect that Rolex HQ will not include a new dial in their service quote because the Rolex acceptance letter explicitely says that the customer does want that ("Do not replace dial").



Even if they would propose a new dial then the OP can and should refuse it. If they judge the dial to be fake or aftermarket then the OP would not receive a service offer but a different type of letter ...

I sincerely hope that all is right with this beautiful dial and the entire watch. I went through that process several times and know that the waiting time can be very long and painful.