How Safe Are AD Deposits?

[JDsnewwatch]

While I appreciate your thought process, there is a flaw in it. The ADs are basically free agents when things go sour. Consider the ubiquitous "wait list", are those who are on these (fantom) lists now known to Rolex? If (when) the ADs go belly up, do the waitlists transfer to some other location? This is obviously not going to happen.

Secondly, when an AD will only sell to customers who are known to them (having spent upwards of $150,000 on junk diamonds and other nick knacks and doo dads) and this complaint has been escalated to Rolex time and again, their response has been very short of customer centered. In fact, they have made it abundantly clear that they just don't care at all.

Lastly: For everyone else, American Express will have your back in the situation where an AD blatantly steals your deposit (as long as you use an Amex card as payment). But, as some of you aptly know, the ADs don't take credit cards anymore. So, if you really are that foolish and you walk in with cash, you are on your own. Caveat Emptor.

Originally Posted by jgmvm2087

This thread has taken an interesting turn. I understand that the OP is concerned about loss of the deposit in the case of Chapter 11. Which is bankruptcy for companies/organizations. What I find interesting is that no one is mentioning Rolex here. As an AD, they are essentially agents of Rolex, even though they are a third party, separate company/entity within the exchange relationship of you (the consumer) and Rolex (the manufacturer). When I say “agent” I mean they are acting on Rolex’s behalf. This means the AD not only has a duty to you, but also to Rolex. Their duty to you is to fulfill their contractual agreement, whether it be expressed or implied, and to Rolex, to represent them as Rolex deems suitable. Hence the word “authorized” dealer. Having an AD that that doubles as a strip club at night would not be suitable. Likewise, having an AD that takes deposits in pieces they don’t intend to supply before filing bankruptcy would also not be suitable.

But let’s just say that’s what happens. As an agent of Rolex, the AD is acting on their behalf when they take your deposit. This means Rolex can be held accountable. Yes, it’s true. The same way when a Dominos pizza delivery guy is at fault in a car accident. That Dominos might be a corporate store or a franchise. But one of the risks as a franchise corporation is that any actions of any agent out of that franchise can hold the Dominos Corporation liable. You heard of the McDonald coffee incident right? It’s the same thing here. The AD folds, you can then go after Rolex.

Now, let’s go deeper. That might seem frightening to most people. How would anyone be able to go up against Rolex? Keep in mind that bankruptcy is filed in Federal court not your local small claims. There is only one Federal circuit that is solely dedicated to Copyrights, Trademarks, and Bankruptcy. As I suggested in my previous post, if you have your agreement in writing, therefore it is no longer open ended and it is expressed, you will have a right to become whole again that will be based on a Federal judgment. That’s pretty powerful. Additionally, the AD would be considered to have acted with mal intent as an agent of Rolex, and Rolex themselves could be held liable to give you restitution. This might take a while but you would get your money back. And honestly, Rolex would probably not even wait for a judgment. They would probably go ahead and make things right as they wouldn’t want the headache.

Lastly, many ADs have been in business for a very long time. Adler’s in New Orleans, for example has multiple locations and has been around for over 100 years, since 1898 to be exact. How many recessions, bubbles, and collapses have occurred since then? A lot. And they are still alive and ticking. Pun intended. All I’m saying is that it would take a lot for some of these ADs to go under. Maybe that should be a big part of your decision. How long have they been an AD? What other forms of business do they depend on? Most ADs don’t just sell Rolexes. Most don’t just sell timepieces.

I hope this brings some ease to anyone who might be concerned.

Best of luck to you all! I’m still waiting on my Hulk after 2 years, and no I didn’t put down a deposit. But if my AD called me and asked me if I was interested, I just might go ahead and do it. I would most certainly take the necessary measures of getting something in writing in order to protect myself and that denotes when that piece would be on my wrist.

[GovernorsGovernor]

Originally Posted by jlovda

is a franchisee the same as an authorized dealer? You don't buy hamburgers from a McDonalds "AD."

Not sure what you're getting at.

You buy a hamburger from McDonald's.

[GovernorsGovernor]

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

Lastly: For everyone else, American Express will have your back in the situation where an AD blatantly steals your deposit (as long as you use an Amex card as payment). But, as some of you aptly know, the ADs don't take credit cards anymore. So, if you really are that foolish and you walk in with cash, you are on your own. Caveat Emptor.

Again, we're not talking about stealing; we're talking about bankruptcy.

Visa has had my back on every occasion where I've been the victim of fraud, with virtually no effort at all on my part.

Not sure where AMEX gets this holier-than-thou status from? But Visa and MC have always had my back in cases of fraud.

[jgmvm2087]

Originally Posted by JDsnewwatch

While I appreciate your thought process, there is a flaw in it. The ADs are basically free agents when things go sour. Consider the ubiquitous "wait list", are those who are on these (fantom) lists now known to Rolex? If (when) the ADs go belly up, do the waitlists transfer to some other location? This is obviously not going to happen.

Secondly, when an AD will only sell to customers who are known to them (having spent upwards of $150,000 on junk diamonds and other nick knacks and doo dads) and this complaint has been escalated to Rolex time and again, their response has been very short of customer centered. In fact, they have made it abundantly clear that they just don't care at all.

Lastly: For everyone else, American Express will have your back in the situation where an AD blatantly steals your deposit (as long as you use an Amex card as payment). But, as some of you aptly know, the ADs don't take credit cards anymore. So, if you really are that foolish and you walk in with cash, you are on your own. Caveat Emptor.

A waitlist is not a contract, a deposit however involves a contract whether expressed or implied.

[jgmvm2087]

Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor

I think the Rolex, Dominoes, McDonald's correlation is a bad example because with Dominoes and McDonald's, you're buying directly from the company. With Rolex, you're buying from an AD that had already purchased the product from Rolex, so Rolex already made the sale.

I’m sorry to tell you but every hamburger sold from McDonalds is not bought directly from the Corporation. There are franchises and they have rules and McDonalds Corp. can be held liable for their actions. And yes the AD/Franchisee comparison is correct.

As for this thread, I will leave you guys to figure out the rest..... and yes I’ll take fries with that!

[Greenp]

What is the time limitation for CC protection? 30, 60 days?

[csaltphoto]

I did a bit of research and there are some answers here: https://www.creditcards.com/credit-c...mpany-1267.php

"Of course, if the merchant’s gone bankrupt, there may not be any money in its account to deduct. In this case, Visa, MasterCard and American Express require that the acquirer cover the loss. It’s not merely a suggestion, says Teri Charest, a spokeswoman for U.S. Bank. “Banks are bound by [these] rules and parameters established by the card networks,” she says.

As the blame — and the balance — bounce between merchant, acquirer and you, the customer, don’t be surprised if something falls through the cracks. Melanie Backs, spokeswoman for American Express, acknowledges that complicated situations like this don’t always fit easily into AmEx’s extensive charge-back policies. “We have both a merchant dispute policy and a purchase protection policy — but this situation is a bit of a gray area,” she says."

So basically, Amex is not willing to go on record saying they will refund your money in the case of bankruptcy.

[GovernorsGovernor]

Originally Posted by jgmvm2087

I’m sorry to tell you but every hamburger sold from McDonalds is not bought directly from the Corporation. There are franchises and they have rules and McDonalds Corp. can be held liable for their actions. And yes the AD/Franchisee comparison is correct.

As for this thread, I will leave you guys to figure out the rest..... and yes I’ll take fries with that!

The AD-franchise comparison is not identical.

A franchise IS McDonald's. From the decor, to the cash registers, to the menu, to the seating and tables, to the promos--everything MUST be McDonald's. You are essentially dealing with the corporation.

An AD is not as tightly-connected to Rolex, similar to a car dealership-manufacturer relationship. When you have a problem with your car, all of your dealings are with the dealership, not, say, Ford (except for extreme cases). Same with Rolex ADs, save for those of us who choose to send our pieces directly to an RSC. Nonetheless, there is an obvious separation there.

Yeah, Rolex requires the AD to dedicate a small area of the store for its products, complete with Rolex signage and lighting. But it ends there--no 2 ADs will look alike beyond that. So there is a BIG disconnection in that scenario.

[GovernorsGovernor]

Originally Posted by csaltphoto

I did a bit of research and there are some answers here: https://www.creditcards.com/credit-c...mpany-1267.php

"Of course, if the merchant’s gone bankrupt, there may not be any money in its account to deduct. In this case, Visa, MasterCard and American Express require that the acquirer cover the loss. It’s not merely a suggestion, says Teri Charest, a spokeswoman for U.S. Bank. “Banks are bound by [these] rules and parameters established by the card networks,” she says.

As the blame — and the balance — bounce between merchant, acquirer and you, the customer, don’t be surprised if something falls through the cracks. Melanie Backs, spokeswoman for American Express, acknowledges that complicated situations like this don’t always fit easily into AmEx’s extensive charge-back policies. “We have both a merchant dispute policy and a purchase protection policy — but this situation is a bit of a gray area,” she says."

So basically, Amex is not willing to go on record saying they will refund your money in the case of bankruptcy.

Thank you, Sir. I discovered that exact article in my research.

Again, if it were THAT cut-and-dry that CCs would simply cover you, no questions asked, we'd all know that to be common knowledge, deal EXCLUSIVELY with CCs for all transactions in life...and this thread would NOT even exist.

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Njw

I was offered a watch when an AD reopens for 100% deposit last week and turned it down...

Why would a financially secure AD require a 100% deposit? I can't think of a single logical reason.

[Njw]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

For recovering money on behalf of their users they are low in the pecking order, because individual punters are low in the pecking order. One private individual's loss, even if thousands, doesn't make much of a blip on the administrator's radar. It probably doesn't blip at all.

For recovering money spent by bankrupt companies on their corporate credit cards, they are right up there with the front runners. In the UK.

It doesn’t matter where the credit company is in the ‘pecking order’. In the UK the CC company is legally obligated to return the money to you regardless of their claim with the bankrupt company. That is the Section 75 regulation of the Consumer Credit Act. They are in no way recovering it on behalf of the customer. They have to pay that claim and recover whatever they can themselves. Incidentally, I received a call from an AD to reserve a Rolex for a 100% deposit when they reopen and turned it down because it’s not worth it right now just for a watch. But that doesn’t change what the regulation is.

[Njw]

Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor

If it were THAT cut-and-dry that CCs would simply cover you, no questions asked, we'd all know that to be common knowledge, deal EXCLUSIVELY with CCs for all transactions in life...and this thread would NOT even exist.

I thought that was common knowledge. I always pay for big purchases on credit card and so does everyone I know.

[GONZO2LR]

i would never ever ever give money on a promised watch...never..

[GovernorsGovernor]

Originally Posted by Njw

It doesn’t matter where the credit company is in the ‘pecking order’. In the UK the CC company is legally obligated to return the money to you regardless of their claim with the bankrupt company. That is the Section 75 regulation of the Consumer Credit Act. They are in no way recovering it on behalf of the customer. They have to pay that claim and recover whatever they can themselves. Incidentally, I received a call from an AD to reserve a Rolex for a 100% deposit when they reopen and turned it down because it’s not worth it right now just for a watch. But that doesn’t change what the regulation is.

All these guarantees, and now you're going to pass??? 😂

[SMD]

Originally Posted by jgmvm2087

This thread has taken an interesting turn. I understand that the OP is concerned about loss of the deposit in the case of Chapter 11. Which is bankruptcy for companies/organizations. What I find interesting is that no one is mentioning Rolex here. As an AD, they are essentially agents of Rolex, even though they are a third party, separate company/entity within the exchange relationship of you (the consumer) and Rolex (the manufacturer). When I say “agent” I mean they are acting on Rolex’s behalf. This means the AD not only has a duty to you, but also to Rolex. Their duty to you is to fulfill their contractual agreement, whether it be expressed or implied, and to Rolex, to represent them as Rolex deems suitable. Hence the word “authorized” dealer. Having an AD that that doubles as a strip club at night would not be suitable. Likewise, having an AD that takes deposits in pieces they don’t intend to supply before filing bankruptcy would also not be suitable.

But let’s just say that’s what happens. As an agent of Rolex, the AD is acting on their behalf when they take your deposit. This means Rolex can be held accountable. Yes, it’s true. The same way when a Dominos pizza delivery guy is at fault in a car accident. That Dominos might be a corporate store or a franchise. But one of the risks as a franchise corporation is that any actions of any agent out of that franchise can hold the Dominos Corporation liable. You heard of the McDonald coffee incident right? It’s the same thing here. The AD folds, you can then go after Rolex.

Now, let’s go deeper. That might seem frightening to most people. How would anyone be able to go up against Rolex? Keep in mind that bankruptcy is filed in Federal court not your local small claims. There is only one Federal circuit that is solely dedicated to Copyrights, Trademarks, and Bankruptcy. As I suggested in my previous post, if you have your agreement in writing, therefore it is no longer open ended and it is expressed, you will have a right to become whole again that will be based on a Federal judgment. That’s pretty powerful. Additionally, the AD would be considered to have acted with mal intent as an agent of Rolex, and Rolex themselves could be held liable to give you restitution. This might take a while but you would get your money back. And honestly, Rolex would probably not even wait for a judgment. They would probably go ahead and make things right as they wouldn’t want the headache.

Lastly, many ADs have been in business for a very long time. Adler’s in New Orleans, for example has multiple locations and has been around for over 100 years, since 1898 to be exact. How many recessions, bubbles, and collapses have occurred since then? A lot. And they are still alive and ticking. Pun intended. All I’m saying is that it would take a lot for some of these ADs to go under. Maybe that should be a big part of your decision. How long have they been an AD? What other forms of business do they depend on? Most ADs don’t just sell Rolexes. Most don’t just sell timepieces.

I hope this brings some ease to anyone who might be concerned.

Best of luck to you all! I’m still waiting on my Hulk after 2 years, and no I didn’t put down a deposit. But if my AD called me and asked me if I was interested, I just might go ahead and do it. I would most certainly take the necessary measures of getting something in writing in order to protect myself and that denotes when that piece would be on my wrist.

Please tell me you are not a practicing lawyer. Don't even know where to begin but I can assure you the first thing in any AD agreement with Rolex is a provision that specifically states that the AD is not an agent for Rolex and has no authority to bind Rolex. There is no apparently authority here. Not even close. AD is selling its assets to its customers at pricing it sets (note what MSRP stands for). If you put a deposit down you are an unsecured creditor in a bankruptcy, and that is not where you want to be. Your deposit is only as good as the balance sheet of your AD.

[al1786]

Originally Posted by Langnam

Deposit is only as secure as the AD itself.

Just before the Great Recession began, I had a deposit down with an AD for a Lange for my wife. I kept getting the runaround from the store on why the watch wasn’t in, etc. Finally, I called Lange NY and they had no record of my order ever placed.

Went back to the AD and demanded my deposit back to no avail. The best they would do was a credit towards another watch. I wasn’t going to lose a $9500 deposit, so I bought a JLC.

Within 2 months the whole chain went belly up and whatever inventory remained was sent to a liquidator to pay off creditors.

Rolex and Lange were the big losers.

No deposit ever again for me.


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Which AD chain was this?


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[SMD]

Originally Posted by jgmvm2087

I’m sorry to tell you but every hamburger sold from McDonalds is not bought directly from the Corporation. There are franchises and they have rules and McDonalds Corp. can be held liable for their actions. And yes the AD/Franchisee comparison is correct.

As for this thread, I will leave you guys to figure out the rest..... and yes I’ll take fries with that!

Again, this is wrong. I would encourage you to read an actual franchise agreement.

If a franchisee violates labour laws you cannot go after McDonalds Corp. This is the entire point of the model. You get a bunch of independent business people to run the locations, put up the capital and take the risk. But the franchisees make a number of key decisions to ensure that McDonalds corp is not seen as pulling the strings on day to day decision making. Obviously everyone tries to sue the deep pocket corp but it is very, very rarely successful absent the franchisor holding out the franchisee as its agent, which I assure no successful franchisor does.

[SMD]

Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor

The AD-franchise comparison is not identical.

A franchise IS McDonald's. From the decor, to the cash registers, to the menu, to the seating and tables, to the promos--everything MUST be McDonald's. You are essentially dealing with the corporation.

An AD is not as tightly-connected to Rolex, similar to a car dealership-manufacturer relationship. When you have a problem with your car, all of your dealings are with the dealership, not, say, Ford (except for extreme cases). Same with Rolex ADs, save for those of us who choose to send our pieces directly to an RSC. Nonetheless, there is an obvious separation there.

Yeah, Rolex requires the AD to dedicate a small area of the store for its products, complete with Rolex signage and lighting. But it ends there--no 2 ADs will look alike beyond that. So there is a BIG disconnection in that scenario.

This is wrong too. A McDonalds franchisee is an independent business that makes all key day to day decisions. McDonalds corp is not responsible for the acts of its franchisees absent some really strange facts regarding corporate meddling, like setting employee work schedules, which I assure you they do not.

[scarlet knight]

Originally Posted by GONZO2LR

i would never ever ever give money on a promised watch...never..

They get the watch. I pay for the watch. I leave with the watch.

[al1786]

Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor

Maybe so... Though I find it hard to believe that there's zero risk to the consumer, while all the risk rests with the the CC.

Sorry, bro, maybe you're right, but I'm skeptical.

You’re right to be skeptical. When paying by credit card and there is a third party processing the payment you may not have cast iron protection under section 75. There are a few grey areas.


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[JDsnewwatch]

Amex will go way farther than any visa bank ever will for their customer. They will always side with the customer. Im happy to hear that you have had good experiences with Visa, thats wonderful. I cant say the same with 100% accuracy.
I had to airlifted out of the middle least when there were SCUD missiles zipping their way towards Israel courtesy of Mr. Saddam Housein. Good luck getting a flight to the US at the outbreak of the first gulf war. ONE CALL to American Express and I was on a flight 4 hours later.

I can go on if you want.. there are more instances where they have jumped in to save my um, tush.. but from the moment mentioned above, I have had at least one AMEX card and I will always be loyal to them. My kids have them too.

There used to be an ad from Rolex that the Rolex watch would always be your ticket home, I have news for you.. that Amex Platinum (even the gold) card will do a better job..

Originally Posted by GovernorsGovernor

Again, we're not talking about stealing; we're talking about bankruptcy.

Visa has had my back on every occasion where I've been the victim of fraud, with virtually no effort at all on my part.

Not sure where AMEX gets this holier-than-thou status from? But Visa and MC have always had my back in cases of fraud.

[JDsnewwatch]

Your AD has outstanding contracts with Rolex and countless other manufacturers. I'd bet that 50-80% of the items in that store are not actually owned by the store. If/When the store files for bankruptcy, where you do imagine you might fall in the line of people who need to get paid back? The bankruptcy lawyers will get paid first. Outstanding taxes are levied next (thats America for you). Even if you come next (you don't), a big percentage of the money is gone already!

If you think you are getting paid back in full, you are incorrect.

But, you can research this for yourself. There are lots of great search engines available to you. So, please dont take my word for it. Please, search and make your own determination.

Originally Posted by jgmvm2087

A waitlist is not a contract, a deposit however involves a contract whether expressed or implied.

[maveric]

Originally Posted by Langnam

Deposit is only as secure as the AD itself.

Just before the Great Recession began, I had a deposit down with an AD for a Lange for my wife. I kept getting the runaround from the store on why the watch wasn’t in, etc. Finally, I called Lange NY and they had no record of my order ever placed.

Went back to the AD and demanded my deposit back to no avail. The best they would do was a credit towards another watch. I wasn’t going to lose a $9500 deposit, so I bought a JLC.

Within 2 months the whole chain went belly up and whatever inventory remained was sent to a liquidator to pay off creditors.

Rolex and Lange were the big losers.

No deposit ever again for me...

This probably the scariest story I've read in this forum!