32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[mmmmp]

I own two Datejust 41 Rolex watches.

One is about three years old: no issues
DJ41 "2" is about eighteen months old: no issues. Both watches worn in daily rotation: I wear them enough that neither have run down. DLST and calendar adjustments are the *only time the crown is unscrewed.

Both references run appropriately:
-3 / +4. I rarely check as this level of timekeeping is more than acceptable for a mechanical automatic watch.

To add: My brother's six month old DJ41 is still running 'factory spec'
-2 / +2 with no issues. It too has never run down except for calendar/DLST adjustments.

Hope this helps.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Many thanks for your efforts!
Your AD data explain as follows:

From left column to the right column: watch position; rate (s/d), beat error (ms), amplitude (degrees)
Bottom line shows the averages = SUM:6

Amplitudes:
Dial up & dial down: 278, 279 degrees: both values very close (excellent)
All other positions: 249-251 degrees: all 4 values very close (excellent)
Conclusion: this movement has no issue at all, I understand that these data were taken after full winding.

That your watch is running "a consistent (approximately) - 1.4 or -1.5 seconds a day" is given by your wearing pattern, absolutely nothing to worry about. Some owners prefer that their watches run slightly + instead of -, but that's only a matter of taste

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Rori

My SD43 starts it’s life with me with a +2.5 seconds / day. 1 year, 3 months later its -0.5 a day. The last month the watch lost merely 16sec!
I don’t know if this is considered an issue by the experts.
Update: my watch is never fully charged since it’s off my wrist while sleeping “8 hours” then when I’m exercising “3 hours” then we should add the fact I also alternate with my Tudor.


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There seems to be a trend with your watch that's not accommodated by the poll. You're in the grey zone.
But I wouldn't worry about potential issues yet until or unless the timing falls out of spec.
So far i would just check it monthly or whenever you next change the date.

But in an effort to prevent a skewing of the results of the poll, i would urge you to abstain from clicking on any option at this stage, at least without the results of some figures from timing on a timeographer

Enjoy your watch

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by mmmmp

I own two Datejust 41 Rolex watches.

One is about three years old: no issues
DJ41 "2" is about eighteen months old: no issues. Both watches worn in daily rotation: I wear them enough that neither have run down. DLST and calendar adjustments are the *only time the crown is unscrewed.

Both references run appropriately:
-3 / +4. I rarely check as this level of timekeeping is more than acceptable for a mechanical automatic watch.

To add: My brother's six month old DJ41 is still running 'factory spec'
-2 / +2 with no issues. It too has never run down except for calendar/DLST adjustments.

Hope this helps.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Sounds good
Have you voted in the poll?
If so, would you kindly let us know if something goes off the rails down the track?

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Mystro

If I had to steer this forum in a direction, I would much rather encourage ocd time keeping and movement understanding than “What watch holds the most value” or all the commodity trading that has plagued this Rolex forum the last three years.
At least the by product of movement education is better horological knowledge and experience. Once that is established as a base line, value and what watch to buy will take care of itself without the need to ask.

Agreed

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

That's a key issue with a watch that has a low amplitude at full wind, even though it keeps good time in that condition (e.g. mine). When my power reserve gets low, it crosses an amplitude threshold where the timing goes to complete crap. I've seen it go to -160 s/d in this situation. So this new amazing "70 hour power reserve" is kind of nonsense if I have to make sure it never uses more than 50 hours of it or else the timing drifts like crazy.

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Yeah the 70 hour thing is of little use to the day to day user.
After all, 48 hours was more than adequate in terms of practicality.

That's one of the reasons why I believe Rolex was caught with their pants down in the battle for market supremisy by a major competitor who shall remain nameless but has gone down the twin Spring barrel path.
Rolex probably had to rush their design to market

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

To be clear, are you saying all 3 had issues or you just got so fed up with the one that you got rid of them all?

If they all met criterior that related directly to the question and he voted in the poll.
I sincerely hope he voted 3 times accordingly.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Thanks for providing data, much acknowledged.
Can you continue tests without winding every day?
Just do the simple sequence I described in post #97.
You can run this test with several watches in parallel.

A question or two if i may.
For simplicity and accuracy.
Shouldn't all tests be performed at full wind?
What is the purpose of accepting a potential error factor of a partially wound down movement that's undefined, and where it has little bearing on what is deemed to be in the optimal state of wind/power reserve?

[saxo3]

For all those who might consider using a Timegrapher App. (setup of today as demonstration for this thread)

Put the headphone microphone below the crown, close the box for noise reduction,
connect the headphone with your smartphone, start the App. and you get such a screen


SD43, no full winding, dial up position, lift angle: 53 degrees, BPH: 28800
Result -> Rate: + 4.5 s/d, Amplitude: 242 degrees, beat error: 0 ms
It's really easy to obtain a "rough" overview from time to time.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Dirt

A question or two if i may.

For simplicity and accuracy.

Shouldn't all tests be performed at full wind?

What is the purpose of accepting a potential error factor of a partially wound down movement that's undefined, and where it has little bearing on what is deemed to be in the optimal state of wind/power reserve?

Per the 2 Rolex trained watchmakers, the spec for minimum amplitude (200 degrees) is after 24 hours, vertical position.

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[mmmmp]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Sounds good
Have you voted in the poll?
If so, would you kindly let us know if something goes off the rails down the track?

No, I didn't formally vote. I figured you could extract the info you needed from my post.
Should I experience any abnormalities, I'll definitely pass along any useful information.
I think your effort is going to be worthwhile and helpful with the ultimate goal being greater understanding of the 32xx series movement.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Boopie

This may be a dumb question....but isn’t wearing a Rolex 10 hours a day enough movement to keep the watch fully run and performing accurately? If not, how much? 12?

Also, as for “fully wound”...I wind the crown 20-25 times (I thought was recommended). Isn’t that enough?

I have a ladies’ Yachtmaster, so not the movement at issue, but my watch turns 20 next month and it keeps great time. I’d guess that the power reserve is at about 30 hours, though.

If you were in a comatose state, wearing it 24/7 won't be enough to keep the watch wound up. It will eventually stop in fairly short order.
It all depends upon your activity levels.
I personally get about 48 hours of power reserve on my Rolex watches if I wear the watch for only 8 hours. That is experimenting with a stopped watch.
And if I wear it for only one hour I get about 6 hours of run time.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by mmmmp

No, I didn't formally vote. I figured you could extract the info you needed from my post.
Should I experience any abnormalities, I'll definitely pass along any useful information.
I think your effort is going to be worthwhile and helpful with the ultimate goal being greater understanding of the 32xx series movement.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Thankyou for your contribution.
But to be clear, all credit must go to a couple of other members for taking the initiative

I am only supportive

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Dirt

A question or two if i may.
For simplicity and accuracy.
Shouldn't all tests be performed at full wind?
What is the purpose of accepting a potential error factor of a partially wound down movement that's undefined, and where it has little bearing on what is deemed to be in the optimal state of wind/power reserve?

Q: Shouldn't all tests be performed at full wind?
A: Not necessarily

Q: What is the purpose of accepting a potential error factor of a partially wound down movement that's undefined...
A: The purpose is to measure, after full watch winding at t=0, how the amplitudes get less with time and if the amplitudes at t= 24 h are still above 200 degrees, which is the minimum acceptable value for the 3200 series.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Mystro

And this is what most of us movement nerds spoke about the way Rolex tried to extend their power reserve with the 32 series movements. Their ultra thin single barrel method is more of a modification than a genuine solution to a usable 72 hour power reserve. Why did Rolex go against the well established and proven dual barrel mainspring???
Dual barrel mainsprings will blow a single barrel spring away in power reserve accuracy. Movements from Omega and Panerai will maintain a strong and consistent amplitude way into days of their power reserve yielding outstanding accuracy on day 3 of power reserve. Even if you don’t care about a 72 hour power reserve in your Rolex, you probably want it’s accuracy to not fall off at the 48 hour mark.

And one probably doesn't want accuracy to go off day to day and progressively get worse either.

Contrast the Rolex 70 hour experience with the 32xx movement.
Ther are others with a single spring barrel from Rolex and other manufacturers with comparable power reserves, that don't seem to have systemic timekeeping issues linked to a tendency to self destruct. In a fashion.
My simple manual wind GS is one example that I own

But are we digressing by chasing the power reserve angle?
I thought the purpose of the poll was to try and tease out the veracity of the declining timekeeping issue with the movement in question and by extension the connection with the amplitude as a guide

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Q: Shouldn't all tests be performed at full wind?
A: Not necessarily

Q: What is the purpose of accepting a potential error factor of a partially wound down movement that's undefined...
A: The purpose is to measure, after full watch winding at t=0, how the amplitudes get less with time and if the amplitudes at t= 24 h is still above 200 degrees, which is the minimum acceptable value.

Ok
Now I get it

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by mmmmp

No, I didn't formally vote. I figured you could extract the info you needed from my post.
Should I experience any abnormalities, I'll definitely pass along any useful information.
I think your effort is going to be worthwhile and helpful with the ultimate goal being greater understanding of the 32xx series movement.

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

Please do vote. From your description it sounds like a strong "Yes". Between you and your brother's watches you have seen no issues. A key goal of this thread is to get an overall idea of the scope of this problem. Are we talking about 1% of all watches? 10%? 50%? So we need to hear from everybody.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Rori

Oh so a watch can pass from being plus to minus “second per day” depending on power reserve?!
Didn’t know that. I thought it either go fast or slow.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even more than that, it can go from + to - immediately (i.e. same power reserve) just by changing positions. Every combination of position and power reserve represents another possible result in terms of timing accuracy, amplitude, beat error, etc.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Even more than that, it can go from + to - immediately (i.e. same power reserve) just by changing positions. Every combination of position and power reserve represents another possible result in terms of timing accuracy, amplitude, beat error, etc.

Man, I can see this going down a rabbit hole

Who's going to analyse the data and subject it to pier review then distill it into something that is digestible for us prols?

[goodolejr]

Special thanks to HiBoost and saxo3. You're doing yeoman's work here.

[Ashton_Horologist]

I’m all for this poll of it makes members happy, but I just want to point out that DIRT doesn’t own a watch with the 3235 movement so perhaps he should stop posting 15 posts in a row and let the data roll in. I am actually interested in seeing this data but it’s very difficult to get to it.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Man, I can see this going down a rabbit hole

Who's going to analyse the data and subject it to pier review then distill it into something that is digestible for us prols?

There's no rabbit hole, I think you are missing my point. I wasn't suggesting he needs to gather data in 6 positions at every possible amount of power reserve for the sake of this thread. He was making a comment about mechanical watch behavior in general and I was following up with another dimension. Timing accuracy can change as power reserve runs down, and it can change in different positions at the same power reserve. That is all, this is not 32xx specific behavior, just something any mechanical watch own may be interested in.

And I see you haven't spent much time researching the multi-quote feature so I'll try to give you the details. Scroll through the thread and click the +" button on every comment you want to reply to, one after another. Once you have them all picked, just click the "quote" button on the last one you selected. You will then have a reply with all the quotes in it and you can put your comments inline after each one. #spoonfed

Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist

I’m all for this poll of it makes members happy, but I just want to point out that DIRT doesn’t own a watch with the 3235 movement so perhaps he should stop posting 15 posts in a row and let the data roll in. I am actually interested in seeing this data but it’s very difficult to get to it.

Totally agree. I have attempted to help our dear friend at least consolidate his replies to a single multiquote. That said, I don't mind if the chatter continues to some extent (though relevant, fact-based comments are *greatly* appreciated) because that will inevitably keep the post more current which should lead to more people answering the poll. The poll is the real "meat" here. The details in the comments are mainly fodder for nerds and watchmakers :)

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist

I’m all for this poll of it makes members happy, but I just want to point out that DIRT doesn’t own a watch with the 3235 movement so perhaps he should stop posting 15 posts in a row and let the data roll in. I am actually interested in seeing this data but it’s very difficult to get to it.

It doesn't stop people from posting their data.
As far as the degree of difficulty goes.
I put it to you, it's recognisable as soon as you see it.

I shall endeavour to space out my posts more if 15 in a row is not to your liking.
As i've said before on this forum.
I'm not all that tech savy and stick to what i know works, but it hasn't ever stopped me from having a go. I'm not a complete ludite.
In the past something goes wrong when I've tried it and I'm sure I'll get to it eventually.
There's also another side to it, in that I can focus better on my communitations with individuals.
I feel as though it's more one on one
And it's just Dirt thankyou Sir.

Edit:
I wasn't aware I had actually put up 15 in a row
I suppose we can add counting above 10 to the list of Horoligical accomplishments required to competently distill all the data points being gathered in this thread
Thanks for sharing your own data

[Dirt]

[QUOTE=HiBoost;11222470]There's no rabbit hole, I think you are missing my point. I wasn't suggesting he needs to gather data in 6 positions at every possible amount of power reserve for the sake of this thread. He was making a comment about mechanical watch behavior in general and I was following up with another dimension. Timing accuracy can change as power reserve runs down, and it can change in different positions at the same power reserve. That is all, this is not 32xx specific behavior, just something any mechanical watch own may be interested in.

And I see you haven't spent much time researching the multi-quote feature so I'll try to give you the details. Scroll through the thread and click the +" button on every comment you want to reply to, one after another. Once you have them all picked, just click the "quote" button on the last one you selected. You will then have a reply with all the quotes in it and you can put your comments inline after each one. #spoonfed

I appreciate the spoonfeeding though i may not necessarily like the taste of what you are dishing out.
It's somewhere in there I get mixed up in the multi-quote process.
Do keep in mind it's not a requirement for participation in the forum and you are not empowered to compell me to be compliant with your wishes Kind Sir.

As i've said previously, I'm old school.
But I'll back myself against most others here that I can rebuild/refresh an engine or transmission better than yourself.
Just don't get me started on the black arts of being a Shipwright or any aspects related to Marine engineering/design.
We all have our own fields of expertise, and i suppose that's why one of my dearly departed old watchmaker(before there were "Horologists") friend used to get me to work on his boat when we couldn't fit in a fishing trip

Interested in watches, i shall remain

[Mr. Drunmond]

Guys, find yourself someone who loves you as much as Dirt loves to post on 32xx threads.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Drunmond

Guys, find yourself someone who loves you as much as Dirt loves to post on 32xx threads.

Am I to take it you deem that I have exceeded my ration/entitlement?
But we're going off topic aren't we

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Do keep in mind it's not a requirement for participation in the forum and you are not empowered to compell me to be compliant with your wishes Kind Sir.



As i've said previously, I'm old school.

But I'll back myself against most others here that I can rebuild/refresh an engine or transmission better than yourself.

Just don't get me started on the black arts of being a Shipwright or any aspects related to Marine engineering/design.

We all have our own fields of expertise, and i suppose that's why one of my dearly departed old watchmaker(before there were "Horologists") friend used to get me to work on his boat when we couldn't fit in a fishing trip



Interested in watches, i shall remain

For the record, I build my own motors, tig weld my own turbo kits, intercoolers and intake manifolds, and tune my own EFI, so better luck next burn.

Though I'm not "empowered" to force you to be polite, I think most people might find it a bit annoying in the future to be scrolling through an important thread with 500 posts, 400 of which are from some curmudgeon who doesn't even own the item being discussed. I tried to be respectful and helpful towards you, but you seem to prefer to take this in a more adversarial direction.



Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Am I to take it you deem that I have exceeded my ration/entitlement?

But we're going off topic aren't we

Originally Posted by Dirt

It doesn't stop people from posting their data.

As far as the degree of difficulty goes.

I put it to you, it's recognisable as soon as you see it.



I shall endeavour to space out my posts more if 15 in a row is not to your liking.

As i've said before on this forum.

I'm not all that tech savy and stick to what i know works, but it hasn't ever stopped me from having a go. I'm not a complete ludite.

In the past something goes wrong when I've tried it and I'm sure I'll get to it eventually.

There's also another side to it, in that I can focus better on my communitations with individuals.

I feel as though it's more one on one

And it's just Dirt thankyou Sir.



Edit:

I wasn't aware I had actually put up 15 in a row

I suppose we can add counting above 10 to the list of Horoligical accomplishments required to competently distill all the data points being gathered in this thread

Thanks for sharing your own data

[QUOTE=Dirt;11222546]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

There's no rabbit hole, I think you are missing my point. I wasn't suggesting he needs to gather data in 6 positions at every possible amount of power reserve for the sake of this thread. He was making a comment about mechanical watch behavior in general and I was following up with another dimension. Timing accuracy can change as power reserve runs down, and it can change in different positions at the same power reserve. That is all, this is not 32xx specific behavior, just something any mechanical watch own may be interested in.



And I see you haven't spent much time researching the multi-quote feature so I'll try to give you the details. Scroll through the thread and click the +" button on every comment you want to reply to, one after another. Once you have them all picked, just click the "quote" button on the last one you selected. You will then have a reply with all the quotes in it and you can put your comments inline after each one. #spoonfed



I appreciate the spoonfeeding though i may not necessarily like the taste of what you are dishing out.

It's somewhere in there I get mixed up in the multi-quote process.

Do keep in mind it's not a requirement for participation in the forum and you are not empowered to compell me to be compliant with your wishes Kind Sir.



As i've said previously, I'm old school.

But I'll back myself against most others here that I can rebuild/refresh an engine or transmission better than yourself.

Just don't get me started on the black arts of being a Shipwright or any aspects related to Marine engineering/design.

We all have our own fields of expertise, and i suppose that's why one of my dearly departed old watchmaker(before there were "Horologists") friend used to get me to work on his boat when we couldn't fit in a fishing trip



Interested in watches, i shall remain

Testing multi-quote in Tapatalk.

Hold down on a post. Select more. Then select Multi quote. Then tap each post and the tally will show at the top of the screen. 3 each in this example. Then click comment button on top right.

[Utomow]

Originally Posted by saxo3

For all those who might consider using a Timegrapher App. (setup of today as demonstration for this thread)

Put the headphone microphone below the crown, close the box for noise reduction,
connect the headphone with your smartphone, start the App. and you get such a screen


SD43, no full winding, dial up position, lift angle: 53 degrees, BPH: 28800
Result -> Rate: + 4.5 s/d, Amplitude: 242 degrees, beat error: 0 ms
It's really easy to obtain a "rough" overview from time to time.

Thanks, this is indeed useful

[sheldonsmith]

Originally Posted by Utomow

Thanks, this is indeed useful

Great hack. I did not think of using the Rolex box as a sound dampener.

~ Sheldon