How can you really trust that a grey market Rolex is authentic?

[Subzy]

Originally Posted by rambo99

that just happened in your imagination, may be. could you give us one single case that a 6 digit rolex is fake or stolen with box and papers purchased from greys?

There was a thread here a few months ago on a fake OP41 Tiffany. One of the reasons I ended up signing up here so I could do a bit more reason fakes.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=832819

[Atlanta]

So much speculation and conspiracy theories here with words like "super clone" yet no examples of such a thing. I just did a Google search and couldn't find a "replica" Rolex for more than $300. You cannot recreate a Rolex that would ever appear to pass as a real watch to anyone in the know, especially a new modern Rolex. Perhaps a scammer could play with a vintage watch which is a whole different issue. You buy the seller because you trust they are not a criminal or a scammer. As someone rightly stated earlier, it you being the victim of fraud is something that would devastate you, don't do it. Thought never crossed my mind to wait two years and kiss some AD's ass... I saw what I wanted and had it 48 hours later. If someone can post pictures of a "super clone", I'd love to see one... of course it's likely just a picture of a real watch.


Member #14554
126619LB & 114270

[GrantD]

Unless you take it for authentication you can’t really, chances are you won’t be scammed from well renowned resellers but you takes you pick you takes your chance. Some company’s that are belittled on here but do offer an authentication service/guarantee, you may pay more but it reduces risk.

EBay do a authentication program, people say it’s not infallible but it’s there. The only grey I’ve brought was my rootbeer, they were not long out and hadn’t taken off but I opted for a bricks and Mortor store that had good feedback and had been in central London for a long while.

[1945]

Originally Posted by joli160

You can, some people here are just paranoid.
I trust 100% all the sellers in TRF’s boutique to make things right if something goes wrong.

Not true.

Read post #87.

Absolutely a “Trusted Seller” who has been mentioned here sold a materially misrepresented a watch. They ultimately made it right after some weeks of communication but it still happened.

You buy from them and trust them, fine. But some of these “Trusted Sellers” are unwittingly selling fake watches. People will realize it when they send them in for service in 5-7 years. By then, their options for some measure of damages will be challenged or limited and that’s unfortunate.

The person above who said the “buy the seller” contingent is dangerous is absolutely right. The “buy the seller” crowd is an echo chamber that convinces people to be relaxed in their due diligence of the actual watch and their need to have it independently inspected at purchase.

The “Trusted Sellers” selling fakes is likely not a common occurrence - probably very very infrequently actually, but it’s happening. And it’s putting fake Rolex’ into the stream of commerce with an imprimatur of authenticity.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Subzy

There was a thread here a few months ago on a fake OP41 Tiffany. One of the reasons I ended up signing up here so I could do a bit more reason fakes.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=832819

lol, this is only an online purchase from chrono 24. the buyer never has a chance to examine the watch and the papers before full payment. the trustworthiness of the seller was also questionable and the white hand tag was missing too. i wouldn't recommend people buying a rolex from greys this way. plus there is a defect on the dial which naked eyes can see, turning the crown results in hands moving the wrong way and the laser etched crown at 9 o'clock instead of 6 suggest the watch is nowhere near the super replica level we are talking about in this thread.

[Calatrava r]

Regrettably, the world is awash with fake Rolexes and if you buy used, you run the risk of acquiring one. The key to buying the seller, is that reliable sellers will most likely catch all fakes, but in the event, one slips through, they will immediately refund the full fund purchase price and shipping costs, whenever, the fraud is discovered, no questions asked. Having any used watch, no matter worn or unworn, checked out soon after purchase by Rolex is a good idea. I would think the risks of problems increases with all these so-called new, unworn watches which still have the plastic on, as there is no ownership history and distribution of these watches by used market dealers involves multiple violations of strict Rolex policies by ADs. In the current climate, I doubt ADs want to lose Rolex which is the source of the traffic through the store.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

So much fear and paranoia here, I'm surprised that some people can get out of bed in the morning.

Why this war on Trusted Sellers? How many hundreds of thousands of successful watch transactions from them have been documented here over many years? "But you can't know," bleat the conspiracists, the exact same way you can't know if your wife really loves you. At some point trust is required. If you can't afford to trust a vetted Trusted Seller then maybe this isn't your game.

[rmwill]

OP admitted that it was a troll post created for "discussion" purposes. He has been feed with 5 pages of "discussion" Hope he now has indigestion :)

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

So much fear and paranoia here, I'm surprised that some people can get out of bed in the morning.

Why this war on Trusted Sellers? How many hundreds of thousands of successful watch transactions from them have been documented here over many years? "But you can't know," bleat the conspiracists, the exact same way you can't know if your wife really loves you. At some point trust is required. If you can't afford to trust a vetted Trusted Seller then maybe this isn't your game.

[hambone1983]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I would absolutely not trust ebay’s authentication process.

ebay has done almost nothing to prevent counterfeit crap from being sold on their platform. Sure, they favor buyers in disputes, but obvious fake stuff is listed there daily, leaving it to people like members of this forum to point out the junk. They have mainstreamed what used to only be transacted in back alleys in shady parts of big cities.

[dtwer]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

Yeah but even a trusted seller could pick up a super clone without knowing. Especially if they deal in volume from multiple sources.

Agree with you. That's why I personally would never buy from any source other than AD. It makes no sense to pay more to buy less guarantee.

[ajh77]

If you buy in the grey market, I suggest do what I did, buy the watch from a reputable grey dealer then send in to Rolex Service right away if you are skeptical of the authenticity of what you purchased. If Rolex Service cannot authenticate the watch, no one can. I did that for my two 18238's and the crystals were not Rolex nor were the hands on one of the watches. But $3,550.00 later and the watches will be restored in 8 weeks. One of the grey dealers I approached with the Rolex Service evaluation paid for all the Rolex repairs and the optional services I chose, to make me happy, over $1,800.00 in repairs and optional repairs.

[hambone1983]

If you are buying NOS/BNIB there are many grey dealers who can be completely trusted to be selling exactly what is being represented. Jomashop has annual net sales of $300M, every penny of which relies on their reputation for selling authentic goods. They aren't getting fooled by anything

[htrap2294]

Originally Posted by 1945

Not true.

Read post #87.

Absolutely a “Trusted Seller” who has been mentioned here sold a materially misrepresented a watch. They ultimately made it right after some weeks of communication but it still happened.

You buy from them and trust them, fine. But some of these “Trusted Sellers” are unwittingly selling fake watches. People will realize it when they send them in for service in 5-7 years. By then, their options for some measure of damages will be challenged or limited and that’s unfortunate.

The person above who said the “buy the seller” contingent is dangerous is absolutely right. The “buy the seller” crowd is an echo chamber that convinces people to be relaxed in their due diligence of the actual watch and their need to have it independently inspected at purchase.

The “Trusted Sellers” selling fakes is likely not a common occurrence - probably very very infrequently actually, but it’s happening. And it’s putting fake Rolex’ into the stream of commerce with an imprimatur of authenticity.

Can you post a link to the thread that this occurred in?

[garyk]

Originally Posted by rmwill

Buy at an AD if you are worried.

Wouldn’t we all prefer to do that at this point. It’s been extremely difficult to buy anything for quite a long time from an AD.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by rmwill

OP admitted that it was a troll post created for "discussion" purposes. He has been feed with 5 pages of "discussion" Hope he now has indigestion :)

I never stated this was a troll post (nor is it). I did state that I was genuinely curious regarding how people felt on the issue. No I did not expect this much discussion.

[Mr. K]

Originally Posted by 1945

Not true.

Read post #87.

Absolutely a “Trusted Seller” who has been mentioned here sold a materially misrepresented a watch. They ultimately made it right after some weeks of communication but it still happened.

You buy from them and trust them, fine. But some of these “Trusted Sellers” are unwittingly selling fake watches. People will realize it when they send them in for service in 5-7 years. By then, their options for some measure of damages will be challenged or limited and that’s unfortunate.

The person above who said the “buy the seller” contingent is dangerous is absolutely right. The “buy the seller” crowd is an echo chamber that convinces people to be relaxed in their due diligence of the actual watch and their need to have it independently inspected at purchase.

The “Trusted Sellers” selling fakes is likely not a common occurrence - probably very very infrequently actually, but it’s happening. And it’s putting fake Rolex’ into the stream of commerce with an imprimatur of authenticity.

If someone doesn't find out about an issue until service, it's bad for everyone. The trusted seller meant no harm. The buyer takes a loss.

But then if 5 or 6 years have passed, The trusted seller doesn't know what has happened to the watch in that amount of time. Are they expected to warranty the watch for 5 years? And then how can the buyer prove nothing happened to the watch in the last 5 years?

Like it's been said here before, best option is to get it serviced or appraised immediately after purchase.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by hambone1983

ebay has done almost nothing to prevent counterfeit crap from being sold on their platform. Sure, they favor buyers in disputes, but obvious fake stuff is listed there daily, leaving it to people like members of this forum to point out the junk. They have mainstreamed what used to only be transacted in back alleys in shady parts of big cities.

Not true. For the authentication guarantee They send it to a legit authentication vendor now. It is as safe as any Grey seller. Plus the fact that eBay is a huge company that always sides with the buyer in most instances. You won't have any issues unless you are trying to scam someone as a buyer or seller. I know from personal experience with the authentication service.

Sent from my SM-F711U using Tapatalk

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

So much fear and paranoia here, I'm surprised that some people can get out of bed in the morning.

Why this war on Trusted Sellers? How many hundreds of thousands of successful watch transactions from them have been documented here over many years? "But you can't know," bleat the conspiracists, the exact same way you can't know if your wife really loves you. At some point trust is required. If you can't afford to trust a vetted Trusted Seller then maybe this isn't your game.

I don't think anyone is arguing that hundreds or thousands of fake Rolex are slipping through the hands of Grey unnoticed.
The question is "Could a fake slip through unnoticed?"
I don't know the answer to that, because I don't know the actual steps DavidSW/Takuya/OCRolex to verify the watches they sell. Do they open and check every watch, or only those where something might look a bit off ? ( some might venture that they don't need to when they come direct from ADs...)

And "over many years " doesn't count- times are changing : the sophistication of fakes has leapt ahead massively this past few years right as the Rolex secondary market has skyrocketed, creating a perfect market for the unscrupulous to make a shit ton of money from giddy FOMO buyers.

I would guess that the Trusted Sellers here are well informed as to what to look for on the state of the art fakes, but those on this forum are only a small part of the reseller market.
High fidelity fakes aren't just made for enthusiast collectors of such things, they are made to be sold as real, and it would be foolish to think that thousands aren't getting mixed into the secondary market and being unwittingly bought and resold either privately or via less assiduous resellers.

Outside of this forum and fake watch forums, how many buyers of a used Rolex will actually send it off to RSC for a service to check authenticity ? Come to that, how many on this forum actually do that ? A minority for sure.
Looking at some of the responses in the Watchout section, many on here have absolutely no idea how sophisticated fakes are and believe they can tell fake from real by "feel" or "shine" or "weight" or "the feel of winding it". People who sell fakes love confident people like that...

So it's not paranoia, there is no question that the clones/fakes are circulating hence it's minimizing the risks of spending tens of thousands of dollars on something actually worth ~$700.

[LVx2]

Originally Posted by DaveDhc

Not entirely true. You can purchase the clones yourself. You don't need an expert on Rolex to purchase a clone or see their advertising photos.

So not really illogical.

No. The statement made was illogical.

If a clone is identified it isn’t good enough to fool the expert.

Not difficult to follow.

Of course, a non expert could be fooled but that has nothing to do with the original statement.

Buyer beware, a very old saying that says a lot about people. Then and now.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by asiparks

I don't think anyone is arguing that hundreds or thousands of fake Rolex are slipping through the hands of Grey unnoticed.
The question is "Could a fake slip through unnoticed?"
I don't know the answer to that, because I don't know the actual steps DavidSW/Takuya/OCRolex to verify the watches they sell. Do they open and check every watch, or only those where something might look a bit off ? ( some might venture that they don't need to when they come direct from ADs...)

And "over many years " doesn't count- times are changing : the sophistication of fakes has leapt ahead massively this past few years right as the Rolex secondary market has skyrocketed, creating a perfect market for the unscrupulous to make a shit ton of money from giddy FOMO buyers.

I would guess that the Trusted Sellers here are well informed as to what to look for on the state of the art fakes, but those on this forum are only a small part of the reseller market.
High fidelity fakes aren't just made for enthusiast collectors of such things, they are made to be sold as real, and it would be foolish to think that thousands aren't getting mixed into the secondary market and being unwittingly bought and resold either privately or via less assiduous resellers.

Outside of this forum and fake watch forums, how many buyers of a used Rolex will actually send it off to RSC for a service to check authenticity ? Come to that, how many on this forum actually do that ? A minority for sure.
Looking at some of the responses in the Watchout section, many on here have absolutely no idea how sophisticated fakes are and believe they can tell fake from real by "feel" or "shine" or "weight" or "the feel of winding it". People who sell fakes love confident people like that...

So it's not paranoia, there is no question that the clones/fakes are circulating hence it's minimizing the risks of spending tens of thousands of dollars on something actually worth ~$700.

you are not talking about all clones or cheap clones but only the super clones, right? those full set of super cloned watch, super cloned hand tags and super cloned warrany card that even a knowledgeable grey dealer cant tell the difference against the authentic ones. how many of those you think are circulating in the market now?

[1945]

Originally Posted by Mr. K

If someone doesn't find out about an issue until service, it's bad for everyone. The trusted seller meant no harm. The buyer takes a loss.

But then if 5 or 6 years have passed, The trusted seller doesn't know what has happened to the watch in that amount of time. Are they expected to warranty the watch for 5 years? And then how can the buyer prove nothing happened to the watch in the last 5 years?

Like it's been said here before, best option is to get it serviced or appraised immediately after purchase.

Exactly. You’re making my point. The buyer likely wouldn’t discover until they sent in for servicing which might be years later. That creates an odd circumstance of what should happen? The buyer wouldn’t reasonably expect to pay $700 servicing a new watch that they recently purchased though that would be best practice if buying outside of Authorized Dealer channels. If the buyer instead waits, it creates as issue of who should own the issue if nearly a decade later some latent concern with the watch surfaces.

It’s a conundrum.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by asiparks

I don't think anyone is arguing that hundreds or thousands of fake Rolex are slipping through the hands of Grey unnoticed.
The question is "Could a fake slip through unnoticed?"
I don't know the answer to that, because I don't know the actual steps DavidSW/Takuya/OCRolex to verify the watches they sell. Do they open and check every watch, or only those where something might look a bit off ? ( some might venture that they don't need to when they come direct from ADs...)

And "over many years " doesn't count- times are changing : the sophistication of fakes has leapt ahead massively this past few years right as the Rolex secondary market has skyrocketed, creating a perfect market for the unscrupulous to make a shit ton of money from giddy FOMO buyers.

I would guess that the Trusted Sellers here are well informed as to what to look for on the state of the art fakes, but those on this forum are only a small part of the reseller market.
High fidelity fakes aren't just made for enthusiast collectors of such things, they are made to be sold as real, and it would be foolish to think that thousands aren't getting mixed into the secondary market and being unwittingly bought and resold either privately or via less assiduous resellers.

Outside of this forum and fake watch forums, how many buyers of a used Rolex will actually send it off to RSC for a service to check authenticity ? Come to that, how many on this forum actually do that ? A minority for sure.
Looking at some of the responses in the Watchout section, many on here have absolutely no idea how sophisticated fakes are and believe they can tell fake from real by "feel" or "shine" or "weight" or "the feel of winding it". People who sell fakes love confident people like that...

So it's not paranoia, there is no question that the clones/fakes are circulating hence it's minimizing the risks of spending tens of thousands of dollars on something actually worth ~$700.

"Could a fake slip through unnoticed?" Valid question but at this point of uncertainty we might as well go over to the meteorite forum and ask if we could get hit in the head with a rock. The answer of course is yes. The real question is how likely is it.

Rolex has been and remains one of the most counterfeited brands on the planet. What objective measurement do we have that "the sophistication of fakes has leapt ahead massively these last few years" besides YouTube videos and histrionic posts on watch forums? And making flawless watches costs money especially when you have to mimic precise cosmetic characteristics of the most observed Swiss watch brand in the world. Where is the tipping point that a copy is both so flawless that experts can't tell and also so cheap enough to produce clandestinely?

I mean this thread is just a big social experiment in What-if-ism. We can all be fooled any number of times at any point in a given day. We do our research, we study, we ask for referrals and we apply the smell test. Is any of this fake watch drama possible? Of course. Is any of this likely? No. Is any of this rampant? Absolutely not.

I'm going to focus on two out of three and not worry about it.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

"Could a fake slip through unnoticed?" Valid question but at this point of uncertainty we might as well go over to the meteorite forum and ask if we could get hit in the head with a rock. The answer of course is yes. The real question is how likely is it.

Rolex has been and remains one of the most counterfeited brands on the planet. What objective measurement do we have that "the sophistication of fakes has leapt ahead massively these last few years" besides YouTube videos and histrionic posts on watch forums? And making flawless watches costs money especially when you have to mimic precise cosmetic characteristics of the most observed Swiss watch brand in the world. Where is the tipping point that a copy is both so flawless that experts can't tell and also so cheap enough to produce clandestinely?

I mean this thread is just a big social experiment in What-if-ism. We can all be fooled any number of times at any point in a given day. We do our research, we study, we ask for referrals and we apply the smell test. Is any of this fake watch drama possible? Of course. Is any of this likely? No. Is any of this rampant? Absolutely not.

I'm going to focus on two out of three and not worry about it.

I don't think we disagree on the many points.
There's a truly horrible yachtmaster and a grim Sub posted in the Watchout section now- they are, to my eyes- obvious, but the fact that some might be uncertain or question them makes me wonder how many people are oblivious to the fidelity of the much higher quality fakes. As the market value of a Rolex has shot up, so has the value proposition for fake makers, whilst CAD/ CNCing has become more accessible and cheaper.
Those fake Daytonas with cloned moment retail for $700, a genuine is $40k -$50K. That's quite the incentive.
It is not hard to find forums dedicated to dissecting and comparing every detail between fake and genuine.

By their very nature, if it's fooling you, you have no reason to question it- so I believe there are quite a few people obliviously wearing fakes, for which they paid "real watch" money.
The truth may only come to light when they try to sell them....

Originally Posted by rambo99

you are not talking about all clones or cheap clones but only the super clones, right? those full set of super cloned watch, super cloned hand tags and super cloned warrany card that even a knowledgeable grey dealer cant tell the difference against the authentic ones. how many of those you think are circulating in the market now?

You are the chap who, from prior posts, believes a fake can be discerned from a genuine, simply by winding and setting the hands, so I'm going out on a limb to say you're not the best informed on fakes and are content to stay in that bubble.

Let's start by not grouping "dealers" as a homogenous collective. Are you imagining all watch dealers behave ethically, with the same diligence that say David SW or Takuya do ?

You understand that there is a whole world of watch trading outside of the trusted sellers on this forum yes ?

You can choose to believe that these "super clones" don't exist if you want, you're not spending my money so carry on >>shrug<<
This forum bans discussion of fakes, but I believe that the better informed buyers are, the less their chance of falling victim. The idea that discussion here will give the fake makers valuable insights is hopelessly outdated.
The OPs question was how can you be sure a grey market watch is genuine ?
If the chance of a clone or Franken watch being sold unintentionally or, intentionally, is >0 then the answer is “no, you can’t “
I would buy from the greys on here because the odds are greatly on my side, I’d feel comfortable rolling the dice. But they are a small fraction of the grey market.

[PO 2500D]

Originally Posted by Atlanta

So much speculation and conspiracy theories here with words like "super clone" yet no examples of such a thing. I just did a Google search and couldn't find a "replica" Rolex for more than $300. You cannot recreate a Rolex that would ever appear to pass as a real watch to anyone in the know, especially a new modern Rolex. Perhaps a scammer could play with a vintage watch which is a whole different issue. You buy the seller because you trust they are not a criminal or a scammer. As someone rightly stated earlier, it you being the victim of fraud is something that would devastate you, don't do it. Thought never crossed my mind to wait two years and kiss some AD's ass... I saw what I wanted and had it 48 hours later. If someone can post pictures of a "super clone", I'd love to see one... of course it's likely just a picture of a real watch.


Member #14554
126619LB & 114270

These videos from WF might give you some insight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upAJE_XhT2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbqQqngkl8s

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by PO 2500D

These videos from WF might give you some insight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upAJE_XhT2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbqQqngkl8s

Thank you for these links, I had never seen them. I watched the first one about the Daytona and the narrator clearly lists and illustrates all of the distinct differences between a “super-clone” and an original. So many here ask the rhetorical question how could a gray or even an AD, who have no doubt handled thousands of watches, tell the difference between a fake and an original when based on this video the differences appear to be both numerous and clear. So if the seller is truly trusted and experienced and honorable and has an economic and reputational incentive to get it right then how could they be so easily hoodwinked?

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by asiparks

I don't think we disagree on the many points.
There's a truly horrible yachtmaster and a grim Sub posted in the Watchout section now- they are, to my eyes- obvious, but the fact that some might be uncertain or question them makes me wonder how many people are oblivious to the fidelity of the much higher quality fakes. As the market value of a Rolex has shot up, so has the value proposition for fake makers, whilst CAD/ CNCing has become more accessible and cheaper.
Those fake Daytonas with cloned moment retail for $700, a genuine is $40k -$50K. That's quite the incentive.
It is not hard to find forums dedicated to dissecting and comparing every detail between fake and genuine.

By their very nature, if it's fooling you, you have no reason to question it- so I believe there are quite a few people obliviously wearing fakes, for which they paid "real watch" money.
The truth may only come to light when they try to sell them....




You are the chap who, from prior posts, believes a fake can be discerned from a genuine, simply by winding and setting the hands, so I'm going out on a limb to say you're not the best informed on fakes and are content to stay in that bubble.

Let's start by not grouping "dealers" as a homogenous collective. Are you imagining all watch dealers behave ethically, with the same diligence that say David SW or Takuya do ?

You understand that there is a whole world of watch trading outside of the trusted sellers on this forum yes ?

You can choose to believe that these "super clones" don't exist if you want, you're not spending my money so carry on >>shrug<<
This forum bans discussion of fakes, but I believe that the better informed buyers are, the less their chance of falling victim. The idea that discussion here will give the fake makers valuable insights is hopelessly outdated.
The OPs question was how can you be sure a grey market watch is genuine ?
If the chance of a clone or Franken watch being sold unintentionally or, intentionally, is >0 then the answer is “no, you can’t “
I would buy from the greys on here because the odds are greatly on my side, I’d feel comfortable rolling the dice. But they are a small fraction of the grey market.

regarding the prior post - dont get me wrong, i based also on the fact that the OP said he bought the watch from a reputable grey dealer with brick and mortar store and with box and papers. that's why i said open the case back to check authenticity is not necessary, just a precautionary check will be ok. though you can be so paranoid to say people will have a significant chance of getting a fake watch from a grey dealer no matter how knowledgeable they are and how carefully they checked the full set, that's your problem.

regarding this post - i was talking about trusted grey dealer, watch, box and papers all along, not just a watch without papers as you have said. show me one single case that the watch, the hand tags and the papers were all found to be fake purchased from a grey dealer. otherwise, everything you said just happened in your own imagination, lol.

[htrap2294]

Originally Posted by PO 2500D

These videos from WF might give you some insight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upAJE_XhT2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbqQqngkl8s

Superclones are easy to find out. If you know what forums and subReddits they're offered at, you know exactly what to look out for. The real scary part is when some of the superclones have compatibility with OEM parts. Then, you will have a superclone base + OEM parts (bezel, movement, hands, dials, etc). Now, these aren't offered for sale...the mix of superclone + OEM parts. You have to have a watchmaker without many scruples perform the operation.

[PO 2500D]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

Thank you for these links, I had never seen them. I watched the first one about the Daytona and the narrator clearly lists and illustrates all of the distinct differences between a “super-clone” and an original. So many here ask the rhetorical question how could a gray or even an AD, who have no doubt handled thousands of watches, tell the difference between a fake and an original when based on this video the differences appear to be both numerous and clear. So if the seller is truly trusted and experienced and honorable and has an economic and reputational incentive to get it right then how could they be so easily hoodwinked?

As I've posted on the thread before any grey worth their salt will be opening the case and know what they are looking at.

However I very much doubt most retail customers looking at either of those fakes in isolation from a real one using just their eyes would be able to tell even with a loupe they wouldn't know what to look for, so the opportunity for fraud is there.

That video is a side by side under a macro and he knows which is the fake which in a way is misleading because you watch it thinking oh yeah I could tell..but you probably couldn't in a real life situation. (I know I couldn't)

We are very much in the dealers hands in terms of expertise & honesty when buying second hand.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by rambo99

regarding the prior post - dont get me wrong, i based also on the fact that the OP said he bought the watch from a reputable grey dealer and with box and papers. that's why i said open the case back to check authenticity is not necessary, just a precautionary check will be ok. though you can be so paranoid to say people will have a significant chance of getting a fake watch from a grey dealer no matter how knowledgeable they are and how carefully they checked the full set, that's your problem.

regarding this post - i was talking about trusted grey dealer, watch, box and papers all along, not just a watch without papers as you have said. show me one single case that the watch, the hand tags and the papers were all found to be fake purchased from a grey dealer. otherwise, everything you said just happened in your own imagination, lol.

I did not state that there was a "significant" chance. just greater than 0. I also said I would buy again from the trusted dealers on here, because the odds are stacked heavily in my favor. However I do not assume that how/why/from whom I buy is the default for all the other people also buying a used luxury watch.
Let us also not assume that everyone knows what a real box, real paper and real card should look like.
Is it implausible, in your mind, that the buyer of such a package, simply hasn't yet discovered that they are a victim ?

[htrap2294]

Originally Posted by PO 2500D

As I've posted on the thread before any grey worth their salt will be opening the case and know what they are looking at.

However I very much doubt most retail customers looking at either of those fakes in isolation from a real one using just their eyes would be able to tell even with a loupe they wouldn't know what to look for, so the opportunity for fraud is there.

That video is a side by side under a macro and he knows which is the fake which in a way is misleading because you watch it thinking oh yeah I could tell..but you probably couldn't in a real life situation. (I know I couldn't)

We are very much in the dealers hands in terms of expertise & honesty when buying second hand.

I think that video is a bit disingenuous. It specifically shows angles that are hard to tell, making you think that it is impossible to tell without an expert that's been in the watch industry for years.

This is far from the case. All it takes is a bit of digging and figuring out where these superclones are sourced from. Once you know that, you pretty much have a plethora of knowledge and can pinpoint a fake.

Life is much easier once you know exactly what to look out for.