The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Not saying you shouldn’t get a refund but this is kind of the risk while doing business. Most dealers learn from similar mistakes. Be happy that you bought from someone offering this kind of guarantee. Normally a dealer would just need to sell the watch cheaper and live with the lesson and loss.

Your reputation is getting hurt here as well. It doesn’t look great if you build your business on Paypal claims just because you don’t know what you buy.

I hope this works out for you both.

I would hope that fair consideration would be given to both the way I conduct my business here and by my attempts to deal directly with the buyer for remedy. Relying on a PayPal claim as a last resort here...and only if necessary. And I've never filed any PayPal claim ever before (and only occasionally pay with it).

Suggesting that I have built a business on PayPal claims seems hyperbolic, but I do accept the larger point being made.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I would hope that fair consideration would be given to both the way I conduct my business here and by my attempts to deal directly with the buyer for remedy. Relying on a PayPal claim as a last resort here...and only if necessary. And I've never filed any PayPal claim ever before (and only occasionally pay with it).

Suggesting that I have built a business on PayPal claims seems hyperbolic, but I do accept the larger point being made.

Just saying I expect more if I sell to a dealer. You should have noticed this straight away and just sent it back.

The guy you bought from seem to be a semi professional as well. His poor selling post basically makes it impossible to not take it back. Even if it sucks to do that one month later. The problem here is probably that he, like most hobby dealers, already spent the funds on something else. Just work with him and I am sure this will work out eventually.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Am I correct that this is the watch you currently have listed for sale?

Interesting, I hadn't noticed that listing. The OP created the listing on November 20th, so this was apparently a purchase for a flip. Puts a slightly different spin on the thread for me.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Just saying I expect more if I sell to a dealer. You should have noticed this straight away and just sent it back.

The guy you bought from seem to be a semi professional as well. His poor selling post basically makes it impossible to not take it back. Even if it sucks to do that one month later. The problem here is probably that he, like most hobby dealers, already spent the funds on something else. Just work with him and I am sure this will work out eventually.

That's what I'm trying to do currently; we agree.

And you're right about another thing. If he hadn't used such strong guarantee language in his listing, then this would probably just be a matter of me biting the bullet. But since he established the expectation, and then accepted guaranteed payment terms, I believe he is enough at fault to warrant a full refund (though I'm still more than willing to come to an alternate agreement), which I have asked for.

We are now approaching 24 hours since I've heard from him last, though. Not feeling good about it despite my best efforts.

My guess is the same as yours; he doesn't have the funds to refund and doesn't quite know how to proceed in light of that. But we'll see. Fingers remain crossed.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Interesting, I hadn't noticed that listing. The OP created the listing on November 20th, so this was apparently a purchase for a flip. Puts a slightly different spin on the thread for me.

This was indeed intended as a birth year watch for me, though I do admit freely to normally being a flipping flipper who flips...and I enjoy it.

But this watch was for my upcoming 50th birthday. I bought it, I tried it on and wore it for about 24 hours and then put it away for my birthday. And then, as will happen, I decided that another watch would be a better 50th present for me (MKI SD 43) given how un-thrilled had been while wearing the red sub...I realized that for me, I'm more of a new watch guy. So I decided to sell the red sub so that I could replace it with a different birthday watch.

That led to the discovery that it had been re-lumed, and here we are...

Most all of the new watches I get, I flip close to immediately. The turn of the century stuff has been me buying, wearing, and turning. The vintage stuff has found me (a 1655 and this 1680). Sometimes I'm selling and sometimes I'm flipping, though I certainly understand that to others there is no distinction.

[swish77]

This is a fascinating thread, almost a case study in what the sometimes difficult/troublesome world of collecting vintage watches has become.

The description in the original sales listing is quite vague, but the photos are very detailed and even include the movement and between the lugs. Leads me to believe this was an experienced seller, but perhaps on other forums since he has only 62 posts on TRF.

The fact that the relume was not disclosed is appalling, and even if the seller didn't know (doubtful), it's still his responsibility. The buyer's lack of vintage expertise and failure to properly research are unfortunate, but that's not a crime. It is a crime (perhaps literally) to misrepresent an item you're selling, unless you provide a refund, assuming that's what the buyer wants.

OP, just curious ... Did you ask the seller any questions about the Sub before purchasing it? Did you ask for more details/history? I realize you didn't ask "Has the dial been relumed," but did you seek any more detail than what's in the original sales listing?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by swish77

This is a fascinating thread, almost a case study in what the sometimes difficult/troublesome world of collecting vintage watches has become.

The description in the original sales listing is quite vague, but the photos are very detailed and even include the movement and between the lugs. Leads me to believe this was an experienced seller, but perhaps on other forums since he has only 62 posts on TRF.

The fact that the relume was not disclosed is appalling, and even if the seller didn't know (doubtful), it's still his responsibility. The buyer's lack of vintage expertise and failure to properly research are unfortunate, but that's not a crime. It is a crime (perhaps literally) to misrepresent an item you're selling, unless you provide a refund, assuming that's what the buyer wants.

OP, just curious ... Did you ask the seller any questions about the Sub before purchasing it? Did you ask for more details/history? I realize you didn't ask "Has the dial been relumed," but did you seek any more detail than what's in the original sales listing?

We talked at length by phone. He assured me that he had just bought it (I had inferred that he bought it privately but now he says he bought directly from Mike at Rolliworks), that Rolliworks had serviced it, that all original parts that Rolliworks had replaced were included in the sale, and that everything was original. I never asked specifically about a re-lume but I did specifically about originality. Originality was also referenced specifically on the note of terms on the PayPal payment. He received the PayPal payment with terms clearly listed and then shipped.

Seller and I had a long conversation today. He is a good, though overwhelmed (family, life, money, not by a watch deal), dude. He wants to do the right thing but can't afford to. He has requested that I take it up with Mike at Rolliworks for proper remedy. I tried to explain that my business was with him and not Mike.

My gut says he didn't know. But I can't be sure. In speaking with him, I asked for a full refund. He declined. I asked for a refund to cover a red service dial (probably impossible to land). He declined. I asked to split the future realized loss (about the same as a new dial likely). He declined.

He has agreed to talk again but he is also relocating from NYC to Lyon, France.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

We talked at length by phone. He assured me that he had just bought it (I had inferred that he bought it privately but now he says he bought directly from Mike at Rolliworks), that Rolliworks had serviced it, that all original parts that Rolliworks had replaced were included in the sale, and that everything was original. I never asked specifically about a re-lume but I did specifically about originality. Originality was also referenced specifically on the note of terms on the PayPal payment. He received the PayPal payment with terms clearly listed and then shipped.

Seller and I had a long conversation today. He is a good, though overwhelmed (family, life, money, not by a watch deal), dude. He wants to do the right thing but can't afford to. He has requested that I take it up with Mike at Rolliworks for proper remedy. I tried to explain that my business was with him and not Mike.

My gut says he didn't know. But I can't be sure. In speaking with him, I asked for a full refund. He declined. I asked for a refund to cover a red service dial (probably impossible to land). He declined. I asked to split the future realized loss (about the same as a new dial likely). He declined.

He has agreed to talk again but he is also relocating from NYC to Lyon, France.

Wait...what? He recommended you get a refund from Rolliworks and he keeps your money? You have the option of filing a claim with PayPal.


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[HarryLime]

File a claim ASAP. Don't waste anymore time.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Wait...what? He recommended you get a refund from Rolliworks and he keeps your money? You have the option of filing a claim with PayPal.


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In a shocking development, the seller has called and told me that Mike at Rolliworks has agreed to buy me out of the 1680 directly...? That was then followed up by a conference call that included Mike from Rolliworks. I've sent Mike a link to pictures/the posting and have invited him to this thread.

Hmmm....

I will update as I know more.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

In a shocking development, the seller has called and told me that Mike at Rolliworks has agreed to buy me out of the 1680 directly...? That was then followed up by a conference call that included Mike from Rolliworks. I've sent Mike a link to pictures/the posting and have invited him to this thread.



Hmmm....



I will update as I know more.

Good move on his part! Hope all works out for everyone.


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[mountainjogger]

This illustrates the problem with buying a vintage watch from anyone who is not a top tier trusted seller, or more to the point, a seller with enough expertise to know an original untouched dial when they see it.:thumbs:

Dropping 20k with a casual flipper. Too rich for my blood.

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

We talked at length by phone. He assured me that he had just bought it (I had inferred that he bought it privately but now he says he bought directly from Mike at Rolliworks), that Rolliworks had serviced it, that all original parts that Rolliworks had replaced were included in the sale, and that everything was original. I never asked specifically about a re-lume but I did specifically about originality. Originality was also referenced specifically on the note of terms on the PayPal payment. He received the PayPal payment with terms clearly listed and then shipped.

Seller and I had a long conversation today. He is a good, though overwhelmed (family, life, money, not by a watch deal), dude. He wants to do the right thing but can't afford to. He has requested that I take it up with Mike at Rolliworks for proper remedy. I tried to explain that my business was with him and not Mike.

My gut says he didn't know. But I can't be sure. In speaking with him, I asked for a full refund. He declined. I asked for a refund to cover a red service dial (probably impossible to land). He declined. I asked to split the future realized loss (about the same as a new dial likely). He declined.

He has agreed to talk again but he is also relocating from NYC to Lyon, France.

Wow, what a turn of events. He’s moving to France, and told you to go pound sand.

Rolliworks has nothing to do with this. They didn’t sell it to you, and they didn’t give you a money back guarantee.

But ‘he’s a good dude’? He conned you, played you, and took your money.

Man up. Stop defending him.

This whole thing is a lesson learned.

[btinl]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

In a shocking development, the seller has called and told me that Mike at Rolliworks has agreed to buy me out of the 1680 directly...? That was then followed up by a conference call that included Mike from Rolliworks. I've sent Mike a link to pictures/the posting and have invited him to this thread.

Hmmm....

I will update as I know more.

So did Rolliworks confirm that they are buying the watch back?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

Wow, what a turn of events. He’s moving to France, and told you to go pound sand.

Rolliworks has nothing to do with this. They didn’t sell it to you, and they didn’t give you a money back guarantee.

But ‘he’s a good dude’? He conned you, played you, and took your money.

Man up. Stop defending him.

This whole thing is a lesson learned.

Definitely a lesson learned. I've been obsessing on this for a few days now and thought it through from all angles.

Yes, I made a mistake in buying that watch and it's on me...with my money where my mouth is in this case.

No issue with acknowledging that I played a role in losing money. But there is also some humanity involved and I'm trying to stay connected to it.

That said, I have begun a claim process.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

This illustrates the problem with buying a vintage watch from anyone who is not a top tier trusted seller, or more to the point, a seller with enough expertise to know an original untouched dial when they see it.:thumbs:

Dropping 20k with a casual flipper. Too rich for my blood.

I'd look behind me but I recognize my role.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by btinl

So did Rolliworks confirm that they are buying the watch back?

Just got off the phone with Mike from Rolliworks. It was very kind of him to talk with me at length given that I was not his customer on the watch.

He had agreed to pay $13K to "re-buy" the 1680 from me. However, when he learned that the 9315 original Oyster bracelet had been removed, and replaced with a 9315 bracelet (my seller had apparently sold it off prior to selling to me, something his TRF history confirms), he has adjusted his offer...

So to answer the earlier important question, Rolliworks will pay $10,000 for a re-lumed 1680 without original bracelet.

I was not any part of Mike's conversation with my seller in regard to what was shared at the time of the Rolliworks sale back in June. All I know is what Mike has offered me now.

I will now ask the seller for $3,000 to cover the price difference between the value of the watch with and without the original bracelet. If he agrees, I will then sell the watch back to Mike at Rolliworks for $10K. And the expensive lesson will be learned and I'll tuck tail for a bit.

If he doesn't agree, I will see the PayPal claim through.

I got myself into this situation...but I do have recourse.

[Styles Bitchley]

Craziest thread ever. File a PayPal claim. Why jump at taking a $10k bath? Pretty sure you could sell that to anyone for $10k, maybe more. Why involve Mike at all?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

Craziest thread ever. File a PayPal claim. Why jump at taking a $10k bath? Pretty sure you could sell that to anyone for $10k, maybe more. Why involve Mike at all?

The seller involved Mike. I answered the phone and was on a conference call with the seller (who had reached out to Mike). We all agreed on the gist of why we were talking and Mike asked me to call him back directly, which I did.

And, yes, crazy. But I have filed a claim with PayPal.

But, hey, at least my wallet isn't as thick; they tell me that can cause sciatica.

[Kingface66]

Sorry about this whole mess. It’s sounds miserable.
But, just to get all the figures (more or less!) correct:
You paid around $19,000 (the sellers last price was $19,300) and now Mike from Rolliworks is offering you $10K (which seems very low) and you might get $3,000 from the seller...though he still has the original 9315 bracelet, which is worth a decent amount of money if in very nice conditions. And at the end of the day, you will be out aprox. $6,000, and have no watch.

I’m afraid it sounds like you’ll be the biggest loser in all this. There’s got to be a better way out.

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Definitely a lesson learned. I've been obsessing on this for a few days now and thought it through from all angles.

Yes, I made a mistake in buying that watch and it's on me...with my money where my mouth is in this case.

No issue with acknowledging that I played a role in losing money. But there is also some humanity involved and I'm trying to stay connected to it.

That said, I have begun a claim process.

Wasn’t digging at you. But at him. The run around he gave you, the deflection, the sob story, and the ‘move’ to France, definitely makes me realize he’s not a reputable seller. And that he knew and took advantage of you.

That’s why I’m saying he’s not your friend. Go after him.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

Wasn’t digging at you. But at him. The run around he gave you, the deflection, the sob story, and the ‘move’ to France, definitely makes me realize he’s not a reputable seller. And that he knew and took advantage of you.

That’s why I’m saying he’s not your friend. Go after him.

Thanks. I am a man who likes to keep options open, so I have begun a claim.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

Sorry about this whole mess. It’s sounds miserable.
But, just to get all the figures (more or less!) correct:
You paid around $19,000 (the sellers last price was $19,300) and now Mike from Rolliworks is offering you $10K (which seems very low) and you might get $3,000 from the seller...though he still has the original 9315 bracelet, which is worth a decent amount of money if in very nice conditions. And at the end of the day, you will be out aprox. $6,000, and have no watch.

I’m afraid it sounds like you’ll be the biggest loser in all this. There’s got to be a better way out.

Not $19k but, yes, I'm definitely the loser.

[JustinK]

So it sounds like Rolliworks did not disclose it was relumed when they sold it or it has a history with a prior client that possibly had it relumed otherwise why get involved.

I would file a PayPal claim to see if you can return the watch for a full refund and let the seller deal with Rolliworks.

If you have to negotiate with the seller through PayPal and loose a couple grand lesson learned but 6K would not be acceptable to me.

[Cloudchaser]

Whoops...duplicate post.

[Acidstain]

And rolliworks the big winner. It’s like selling the band for $10k.


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[wappinghigh]

I would just get the money from rollworks and cut my losses. Wow. Reading this...what an eyeopener (for a newbie)...

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Acidstain

And rolliworks the big winner. It’s like selling the band for $10k.

Sorry, but you have no idea how much they sold the watch for.

Anyway, apparently I have a totally different perspective than most of the contributors to this thread, but at least I've learned the names of several sellers to avoid.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

Wow, what a turn of events. He’s moving to France, and told you to go pound sand.



Rolliworks has nothing to do with this. They didn’t sell it to you, and they didn’t give you a money back guarantee.



But ‘he’s a good dude’? He conned you, played you, and took your money.



Man up. Stop defending him.



This whole thing is a lesson learned.

This sounds pretty harsh. I have read through this entire thing and it sounds to me like a guy sold a watch for almost $20,000 and he had no idea the dial was relumed....even the buyer said that. He had detailed photos and the buyer had an opportunity to have it inspected upon receipt.
Now, fast forward more than a month, and he doesn’t have the money to give back (back to the “needed the money” part), and maybe feels like the ship sailed on a return.
I don’t know how we interpreted all of this so differently, but it is certainly an interesting story.


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[Acidstain]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Sorry, but you have no idea how much they sold the watch for.

Anyway, apparently I have a totally different perspective than most of the contributors to this thread, but at least I've learned the names of several sellers to avoid.

You’re right. My bad. I assumed it’s within 10-15% of asking price.


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