32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[CharlesN]

Thank you for doing all of those graphs and combining them into one easily viewed comparison sheet.

My initial thoughts ...

The RED Line ... SD43 .. The Amplitude is high and the PR is also very good. They seem to maintain that for lengthy time. The rate is a little fast but that can very easily be regulated. I know the watch has been serviced at your local RSC and it is now running like a fabulous Watch. Excellent.

The BLUE Line ... Sub-Date .. The amplitude is good and the rate is very good. This watch is an example of a watch that is running in almost text book mode. The PR is good at 72 Hours.

The BROWN Line ... Exp II .. Again good Amplitude and a pretty steady Rate although it is showing as loosing slightly . This is true in "Real World" also. The PR is good at 72 Hours. Again this watch is running in virtually Text Book mode.

The GREEN Line ... GMT II .. I know this watch is virtually untouched since it was bought some time ago. The Amplitude, rate and PR are all below standard. This is one of the well known watches that has "The Problem" It needs to get some attention, A full service, at your nearest RSC, Hopefully there is one not too far away from you.

My RSC is not close to me and I am thinking of changing to another that is much further away than the one I currently use as it may possible be even better than my excellent nearest one.

The addition of the additional data source is what makes this unique and gives so much more data so that small things can be seen and detected far more easily.

The double Breakdown is a point that this extra data has enabled us to see.
The breakdown at date change times is expected and seen on all the date watches. Obviously it is not visable on watches with no date.
However, there is on the 3235 movements a clear second breakdown 6 hours after the date change one. This is unexplained by any watchmaker on this forum or elsewhere so far.
It can and is only recorded when doing a full Power reserve test and monitoring for long periods. This is not a common practise for a watchmaker.
The 3285 movements seem to not show this pronounced second breakdown.

[CharlesN]

I just realised that the RED, BLUE, BROWN and GREEN lines I mentioned above could almost be mistaken for the Eastern Sierra Transit Authority Lines.

https://www.estransit.com/routes-schedule/

[77T]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Charles, here are your PR results (amplitudes, rates) for your two watches (Submariner, Explorer II) graphed and compared with a Sea-Dweller and GMT Master II.

Curious about the graph lines around the 66-72 hr. marks. Is that actual data, or just erratic inputs due to each watch movement coming to its power reserve exhaustion?

There are some “dips” in data that might be smoothed if you let us see how the sum of least squares for comparison. Not criticism - just visualization of trend.

Would it be possible that the green 3285 line indicates the mainspring wasn’t fully wound, or a barrel problem causing it to drop off sooner than the brown 3285 line?

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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by 77T

Curious about the graph lines around the 66-72 hr. marks. Is that actual data, or just erratic inputs due to each watch movement coming to its power reserve exhaustion?

There are some “dips” in data that might be smoothed if you let us see how the sum of least squares for comparison. Not criticism - just visualization of trend.

Would it be possible that the green 3285 line indicates the mainspring wasn’t fully wound, or a barrel problem causing it to drop off sooner than the brown 3285 line?

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Your questions are very welcome!
In fact, I was hoping for much more technical discussion like that on this Forum.

My detailed answers:

- What you see in all my graphs are data measured with a professional timegrapher.

- I adapted the plots (see below) to better visualize this aspect for you, which took me a bit of time.

- The three graphs below show exactly the same data for the 126600 Sea-Dweller and the 126610 Submariner.

- Amplitude, Rate, and Precision are shown, between 48 and 72 hours, after full caliber winding, exemplary for two watches.

- I replaced the thin lines, which connect all data points, with small dots, showing each individual measurement point.

- The time difference between each data point is only 60 s.



As soon as the amplitude gets as low as 130 – 140 degrees, something "happens" and the amplitude rises again; for this specific Submariner this effect started after 66 hours, for the SD43 after 68 hours. These data points are not faulty timegrapher measurements!



At the same time (66, 68 hours) the caliber rates become strongly negative (for the Submariner) and start to oscillate for the SD43



The precision of both movements is very good (within Rolex specs of +/- 2 sec/day) from the start until 66-68 hours. Then, the precision gets much worse towards the end of the power reserve.

- The mainspring of the 3285 watch (green line) was CERTAINLY fully wound.
- The source of the problem I don't know and prefer not to speculate.

- Your question about the "dips" I do not understand.

I hope YOU (and some others) appreciate the efforts we make and also that I share all information within this Forum.

[77T]

Yes I wasn’t clear about the “dips”. I was looking at the degrees of amplitude and circled them on the image below.



What do you think of my earlier question to smooth curves via sum of least squares?


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[saxo3]

There is no interest to smoothen any curve.

The contrary, it is great that my timegrapher can resove the fine structure of the amplitude decrease during the power reserve.

What is interesting is the fact that the 31xx movements do not show such amplitude breakdowns, see my post #1742.

[Corius]

I have contacted my AD to order a GMT. I asked for it without a bracelet as I'll only be using it on a timegrapher. He seemed a bit surprised.

Only joking, I'm really enjoying this thread although the technicalities are somewhat over my head. I'm really tempted to buy a timegrapher but not sure why!

Perhaps a separate thread on the science of measurement would help so that it is distinct from the concerns over the new movements?

[saxo3]

Hello Corius, good jokes. I just sent you a PM about timegrapher measurement technology and the used terminology.

[saxo3]

Ooops

[Dennisoul]

Tomorrow I’ll have all the timegrapher results from my DJ41 3235, from before it was serviced as it was running crap in early June, and now that it’s been back a few days from RSC…my final test, after Full wind, 24 hour, 48 hour and 60 hour test is tomorrow…..up till now the results are extremely interesting, might just open a few eyes.

[Slimpee]

I’m sorry I don’t have any timegrapher data but unfortunately, I’m back here in this thread with my 2018 DJ41.

It was serviced back in April/May and sent off to a facility. They told me it would go to PA but who knows. It came back in May with a simple “Check Movement.” Whatever, it seemed ok. A few days ago I noticed the time was off. I reset it to time.gov to check. Yesterday, it was slow by minutes with the second hand visibly slow. It would also run for a few seconds, stop, and start again. And needed a little jolt to get it running. It felt to me like a tooth or other debris was loose and holding up the movement. I have not dropped the watch or otherwise mistreated the watch.

I reset it a couple of times and wound it to make sure I’m not crazy. Still off.

Today, I reset it at 13:59 and by the time I got to the AD a couple hours later it was several minutes slow. They took it and will send it in. If it’s not fixed this time, I’m going to be livid.

I’d love it to be -2/+2 but if it’s off a bit, whatever, it’s a mechanical watch. But being off by minutes renders it useless.

Anyway, I’ll post again when the watch is returned.

[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

I’m sorry I don’t have any timegrapher data but unfortunately, I’m back here in this thread with my 2018 DJ41.

It was serviced back in April/May and sent off to a facility. They told me it would go to PA but who knows. It came back in May with a simple “Check Movement.” Whatever, it seemed ok. A few days ago I noticed the time was off. I reset it to time.gov to check. Yesterday, it was slow by minutes with the second hand visibly slow. It would also run for a few seconds, stop, and start again. And needed a little jolt to get it running. It felt to me like a tooth or other debris was loose and holding up the movement. I have not dropped the watch or otherwise mistreated the watch.

I reset it a couple of times and wound it to make sure I’m not crazy. Still off.

Today, I reset it at 13:59 and by the time I got to the AD a couple hours later it was several minutes slow. They took it and will send it in. If it’s not fixed this time, I’m going to be livid.

I’d love it to be -2/+2 but if it’s off a bit, whatever, it’s a mechanical watch. But being off by minutes renders it useless.

Anyway, I’ll post again when the watch is returned.

That’s rotten, if sent to a RSC it should be fixed full stop…..it’s under warranty so no probs getting it fixed. Did you hand it to an AD or directly to RSC?…..If an AD it really depends on whether they’ve sent it to RSC or just done the work themselves.


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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Dennisoul

Tomorrow I’ll have all the timegrapher results from my DJ41 3235, from before it was serviced as it was running crap in early June, and now that it’s been back a few days from RSC…my final test, after Full wind, 24 hour, 48 hour and 60 hour test is tomorrow…..up till now the results are extremely interesting, might just open a few eyes.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your post.

I did no regognize that your DJ41 changed to "running crap" in June 2021, sorry to hear.

What does "running crap" mean for you? Did the caliber degrade rapidly? How did you find out?

Maybe, you can summarize ALL your timegrapher data for this watch, together with the measurement dates of course.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

I’m sorry I don’t have any timegrapher data but unfortunately, I’m back here in this thread with my 2018 DJ41.

It was serviced back in April/May and sent off to a facility. They told me it would go to PA but who knows. It came back in May with a simple “Check Movement.” Whatever, it seemed ok. A few days ago I noticed the time was off. I reset it to time.gov to check. Yesterday, it was slow by minutes with the second hand visibly slow. It would also run for a few seconds, stop, and start again. And needed a little jolt to get it running. It felt to me like a tooth or other debris was loose and holding up the movement. I have not dropped the watch or otherwise mistreated the watch.

I reset it a couple of times and wound it to make sure I’m not crazy. Still off.

Today, I reset it at 13:59 and by the time I got to the AD a couple hours later it was several minutes slow. They took it and will send it in. If it’s not fixed this time, I’m going to be livid.

I’d love it to be -2/+2 but if it’s off a bit, whatever, it’s a mechanical watch. But being off by minutes renders it useless.

Anyway, I’ll post again when the watch is returned.

Sorry to hear that you have so much trouble.

To become independent of any third party, buy a $ 200 timegrapher for your own quick checks.

Forget in advance what some people here have to moan about it.

[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your post.

I did no regognize that your DJ41 changed to "running crap" in June 2021, sorry to hear.

What does "running crap" mean for you? Did the caliber degrade rapidly? How did you find out?

Maybe, you can summarize ALL your timegrapher data for this watch, together with the measurement dates of course.

Hi Saxo….all the earlier results are posted earlier in the thread….but il put all the results up together for comparison….I’ve done the 60 hour test so just waiting to see how long it runs for total power reserve.


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[Dennisoul]

Quick recap, sent my DJ41 126334 in for a service after reading this thread early June…bough my brand new from an AD in June 2017..never been touched or altered in anyway….as you can see by the results from these first set of tests it wasn’t running great…it’s now back from RSC in Kent…the next post will have the time grapher results from the last few days after it’s service…makes interesting reading…as you’ll see it’s like a new watch now that it’s had a totally overhaul from RSC



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[Dennisoul]

These are the results from after coming back from RSC….the watch ran from start to stop just under 70 hours….what was interesting although after 60hours it’s time keeping dropped to -19s/d …the amplitude increased again, so kept the watch running for nearly the 70 hours….time keeping for has greatly improved for first 50 hours which is like a totally different watch.



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[saxo3]

Congratulations!
Looks much better now.
How did you measure the timekeeping?
Is timekeeping what you call "Running @ xxx"?

[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Congratulations!

Looks much better now.

How did you measure the timekeeping?

Is timekeeping what you call "Running @ xxx"?

Cheers Saxo…yes timekeeping is Running @ xxx….its the DU, 9U, 6U, 3U, DD added together and devided by 5 to get the average from all the positions

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Dennisoul

Cheers Saxo…yes timekeeping is Running @ xxx….its the DU, 9U, 6U, 3U, DD added together and devided by 5 to get the average from all the positions

Thanks, that is the "X" value

According to the data, your DJ41 now has good timekeeping for at least 2/3 of the power reserve, i.e. 48 hours, after the service in Kent.

"At least" because you have now results between 48 and 60 hours after full winding.

[saxo3]

Edit:
"At least" because you have no results between 48 and 60 hours after full winding.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Dennisoul

These are the results from after coming back from RSC….the watch ran from start to stop just under 70 hours….what was interesting although after 60hours it’s time keeping dropped to -19s/d …the amplitude increased again, so kept the watch running for nearly the 70 hours….time keeping for has greatly improved for first 50 hours which is like a totally different watch.



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Something seems off with the 60 hour numbers. Are you confident in your equipment/method? First, it's quite odd that a horizontal position (dial up) would be lower amplitude than a vertical position. Second it's quite odd that dial up and dial down would be 100 degrees different. Third it's quite odd that you'd gain significant amplitude between 48 and 60 hours in any position. And seeing all 3 of those combined, it just seems hard to imagine those numbers are all correct... ???

[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Something seems off with the 60 hour numbers. Are you confident in your equipment/method? First, it's quite odd that a horizontal position (dial up) would be lower amplitude than a vertical position. Second it's quite odd that dial up and dial down would be 100 degrees different. Third it's quite odd that you'd gain significant amplitude between 48 and 60 hours in any position. And seeing all 3 of those combined, it just seems hard to imagine those numbers are all correct... ???

Hi Hiboost….I’ve just realised I’ve made a mistake with the 60 hour test, I measured at 12pm each day in 24 hour segments, so the 60 hour test is actually a 72 hour test…Doh!!
….my 60 hour test should have been at midnight 12 hours earlier if you see what I mean. No wonder the results are so wonky for my supposed “60 hour” test, ive done the test at 72 hours, it was actually on its last legs at 72 hours and still ran another few hours after that, what blunder, sorry chaps….the watch is actually running better than I thought as it still kept running for about 78.5 hours.
This would explain the figures for my “60 hour” test…..I’ll redo the the 60 hour test which will be at 60 hours and not 72 hours, but will also add a 55 hour test just to fill in the gap between 48 hours and 60 hours. Hope that makes sense
So as such I’ve not actually done a 60 hour test at all, nothing between 48 & 72 hours…I will be back with a proper 55 hour test and a 60 hour test.


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[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Dennisoul

Hi Hiboost….I’ve just realised I’ve made a mistake with the 60 hour test, I measured at 12pm each day in 24 hour segments, so the 60 hour test is actually a 72 hour test…Doh!!

Glad to hear there was a simple explanation! I'm guessing your watch will be rock solid at the real 60. At 70 and beyond the numbers are interesting in an academic sense (assuming they are accurate - in my testing the machine actually reports bogus info once the amplitude drops below about 140) but of course there can be no real expectation of good performance in the final ticks of power reserve.

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[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Glad to hear there was a simple explanation! I'm guessing your watch will be rock solid at the real 60. At 70 and beyond the numbers are interesting in an academic sense (assuming they are accurate - in my testing the machine actually reports bogus info once the amplitude drops below about 140) but of course there can be no real expectation of good performance in the final ticks of power reserve.

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It’s the Weishi 1900 that I’m using, so yeah the numbers could be off after 70 hours …..as you say the numbers are interesting beyond 70 hours and who knows beyond that point. I’ll do a full wind this morning at 9am so will have the 55 & 60 hour results on Wednesday night.
One thing is for sure RSC at Kent gave it the full treatment as the watch was away for the full 6 weeks. I’ll come back Wednesday night or Thursday with the revised 55 & 60 hour results.


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[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by Dennisoul

It’s the Weishi 1900 that I’m using, so yeah the numbers could be off after 70 hours …..as you say the numbers are interesting beyond 70 hours and who knows beyond that point. I’ll do a full wind this morning at 9am so will have the 55 & 60 hour results on Wednesday night.
One thing is for sure RSC at Kent gave it the full treatment as the watch was away for the full 6 weeks. I’ll come back Wednesday night or Thursday with the revised 55 & 60 hour results.


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On mine I test every two to four hours from 60 onward. Makes it easier to spot the real trends and identify when the numbers stop making sense.

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[saxo3]

Hi Andy,

Affter the discussion with Jeff, your 60 = 72 hours data make more sense!

Strong amplitude rises and oscillations towards the end of the PR have been measured, presented, and discussed in this thread (by me and Charles) several times before.

Therefore, I'm not surprised about your 72 hours data set. I will show your data in a comparable graph.

[Slimpee]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Sorry to hear that you have so much trouble.

To become independent of any third party, buy a $ 200 timegrapher for your own quick checks.

Forget in advance what some people here have to moan about it.

Just ordered one.

I have no idea what y’all are talking about but I look forward to learning!

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

Just ordered one.

I have no idea what y’all are talking about but I look forward to learning!

Perfect.

I like your reply and curious people; I can guide you for learning.

[Dennisoul]

Originally Posted by Slimpee

Just ordered one.

I have no idea what y’all are talking about but I look forward to learning!

Hi Slimpee….I only got my timegrapher at the beginning of June and found it great fun to use. I had no prior knowledge how to use it…..Saxo, Charles and Hiboost will keep you right how to get the most out of it, they are very competent with all the tech stuff


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