The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Styles Bitchley]

You’ve always got the option of keeping it. 1680 on a 93150 is a perfect daily. That’s what you wanted in the first place. I’d do that way before selling it for 10k. Got a story to go along with it too.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

You’ve always got the option of keeping it. 1680 on a 93150 is a perfect daily. That’s what you wanted in the first place. I’d do that way before selling it for 10k. Got a story to go along with it too.

You're missing the sub-text of the thread ... tulip mania in a microcosm. Someone has to be left holding the bag when the music stops.

[ROLLiWORKS]

does anyone know how to search internet web cache? Here is the original link to the watch.

https://www.rolliworks.com/product-p...red-circa-1970

if one knows how to dive into old cache pages you can see it was disclosed and there should be some old date stamps of the dates of the cache date.

"Dial: Genuine Rolex Matte Submariner Red Dial and Hands. The lume plots were previously restored."

[ROLLiWORKS]

The last cache date available on google is 12/10/19 but if someone here is more savvy perhaps they can find an earlier cache date. We had it live on the web starting May-ish until July of 2019.

nvmd. Found this post:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...highlight=1680

Didn't like our starting price but clearly we disclosed the lume plots. we didn't get 22k, or 19k. We received a bit over 12k plus a $4xxx trade at a time where the market was a bit stronger.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by ROLLiWORKS

The last cache date available on google is 12/10/19 but if someone here is more savvy perhaps they can find an earlier cache date. We had it live on the web starting May-ish until July of 2019.

nvmd. Found this post:

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...highlight=1680

Didn't like our starting price but clearly we disclosed the lume plots. we didn't get 22k, or 19k. We received a bit over 12k plus a $4xxx trade at a time where the market was a bit stronger.

Thanks for the input, Mike. Appreciate you taking the time.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Dan S

You're missing the sub-text of the thread ... tulip mania in a microcosm. Someone has to be left holding the bag when the music stops.

You don't think the music is still playing, do you?

I appreciate your opinion and understand your thinking.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

You’ve always got the option of keeping it. 1680 on a 93150 is a perfect daily. That’s what you wanted in the first place. I’d do that way before selling it for 10k. Got a story to go along with it too.

Well, have the story no matter what.

Leaning toward cutting losses, but gonna sleep on it.

[Verdi]

So, Rolliworks did nothing wrong.
They disclosed everything. Well done guys for clearing this up.


The guy who last sold the watch knew about the relume and failed to mention this is his add. It is pretty clear now.

Also, he cashed on the newly refurbished bracelet. He was just after making money by any means....

[Juhuatai]

Yeah seems like just a poor seller.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Verdi

So, Rolliworks did nothing wrong.
They disclosed everything. Well done guys for clearing this up.


The guy who last sold the watch knew about the relume and failed to mention this is his add. It is pretty clear now.

Also, he cashed on the newly refurbished bracelet. He was just after making money by any means....

Yeah, seeing that he sold the refurbished bracelet feels a bit like a knife twist. I'd have probably sold to Rolliworks at $13k and called it a lesson learned. At $10k, though, I either wear it or see the PayPal claim through. Not much in the mood to look at it even, though, so wearing it seems the less likely course of action.

I've learned my lesson. And lost potential sales as well. Tough combo, but I'm a big boy.

And so is the seller. As conflicted as I've been about what to do, it is becoming more clear. I try to be fair and understanding but before he pulls up the anchor, I think I'm going to hold him accountable.

[DSplash]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Yeah, seeing that he sold the refurbished bracelet feels a bit like a knife twist. I'd have probably sold to Rolliworks at $13k and called it a lesson learned. At $10k, though, I either wear it or see the PayPal claim through. Not much in the mood to look at it even, though, so wearing it seems the less likely course of action.



I've learned my lesson. And lost potential sales as well. Tough combo, but I'm a big boy.



And so is the seller. As conflicted as I've been about what to do, it is becoming more clear. I try to be fair and understanding but before he pulls up the anchor, I think I'm going to hold him accountable.

I’ve been reading this thread since the beginning and...let me recap it :
- sellers buys this watch for (12 + 4) 16k with a nice 9315. He knows it’s relumed.
- he sells the original bracelet and replaces it with a 93150...probably gains 1-2k more in the process
- he then sells you the watch for 19k without disclosing the relume

If all of this is right, he is a crook!
He’s made 5k on your back and he expects you to accept losing 6?? How can you defend him?

You’ve been naïve, yes, but the price for that lesson is too high, I’d do anything in my power to get back at him if I were you.
If he can pull this kind of deal, it’s probably not his first time and the « Money spent » excuse doesn’t work!




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[42itus]

First, thanks for sharing this. This is a lesson learned and I could have easily have it happen to me.

The seller made out like a bandit and I find it hard to believe that he doesn’t have the money to make you whole. Ultimately it’s his loss because this will probably ruin his reputation as a seller. If he was serious about selling and had any sort of moral compass he would make it right.

Good luck with your claim. I hope it all works out.


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[Chunky]

Very interesting thread. Out of curiosity, if dials like this are relumed, how long would it take them to stop glowing at all? 10 years, 20 years ?


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[wappinghigh]

^ Loved this thread.. It's more than "interesting" it's an eyeopener! ....Why is buying Rolex so hard? AD's with 2 years waitlists, vintage you can't trust, it's frankly a consumer nightmare.. IMO!

[Acidstain]

Learned something new. I know buying from a private individual, haggling is the norm. But i didn’t think it works that way also when you’re buying from a “shop” (ie. Rolliworks) with that said, does this mean watches posted by other “businesses” are open to negotiating as well? (Topper’s, craft & tailored, takuya, davidsw, etc) i’ve always look at them like buying something at the mall the posted price is the price, no haggling.


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[Chunky]

Originally Posted by Acidstain

Learned something new. I know buying from a private individual, haggling is the norm. But i didn’t think it works that way also when you’re buying from a “shop” (ie. Rolliworks) with that said, does this mean watches posted by other “businesses” are open to negotiating as well? (Topper’s, craft & tailored, takuya, davidsw, etc) i’ve always look at them like buying something at the mall the posted price is the price, no haggling.


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I always try to negotiate the price whether it’s a private sale or store. I’m not ashamed to ask for a discount. In the end all is they can say is no


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[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

This sounds pretty harsh. I have read through this entire thing and it sounds to me like a guy sold a watch for almost $20,000 and he had no idea the dial was relumed....even the buyer said that. He had detailed photos and the buyer had an opportunity to have it inspected upon receipt.
Now, fast forward more than a month, and he doesn’t have the money to give back (back to the “needed the money” part), and maybe feels like the ship sailed on a return.
I don’t know how we interpreted all of this so differently, but it is certainly an interesting story.


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Wr can agree to disagree.

I see a seller who bought a watch from Rolliworks. Rolliworks had disclosed the relume. So, the seller knew it had been relumed. He paid an appropriate price for a relumed watch. He then marked it up to an ‘untouched original lume’ price and flipped it.

The OP assumed it was original and paid too much, and upon discovering that fact, asked for refund.

At that point, the seller skipped town.

If someone is taking advantage of you, you go after them. The longer you wait, the less likely you’ll be successful.

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Acidstain

Learned something new. I know buying from a private individual, haggling is the norm. But i didn’t think it works that way also when you’re buying from a “shop” (ie. Rolliworks) with that said, does this mean watches posted by other “businesses” are open to negotiating as well? (Topper’s, craft & tailored, takuya, davidsw, etc) i’ve always look at them like buying something at the mall the posted price is the price, no haggling.


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All you have to ask is: ‘Is this your best price?’. It’s a five word question that can save you money.

All they can say is no.

But, if they’re motivated to sell, they might negotiate.

[roh123]

This is why no one should ever deal with these hobby dealers that think it is easy to run a business. Acting as professionals until things go sour. Then they want consumer protection instead of the easy profit.

See how easy a real dealer solves this. Cred to Mike at ROLLiWORKS for at least trying to help. Even if he only loses when these two throws around numbers and show his margins.

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by roh123

This is why no one should ever deal with these hobby dealers that think it is easy to run a business. Acting as professionals until things go sour. Then they want consumer protection instead of the easy profit.

See how easy a real dealer solves this. Cred to Mike at ROLLiWORKS for at least trying to help. Even if he only loses when these two throws around numbers and show his margins.

Tend to agree. Learning basics about authentication, originality and restoration issues on the fly, does not a serious dealer make.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

Wr can agree to disagree.

I see a seller who bought a watch from Rolliworks. Rolliworks had disclosed the relume. So, the seller knew it had been relumed. He paid an appropriate price for a relumed watch. He then marked it up to an ‘untouched original lume’ price and flipped it.

The OP assumed it was original and paid too much, and upon discovering that fact, asked for refund.

At that point, the seller skipped town.

If someone is taking advantage of you, you go after them. The longer you wait, the less likely you’ll be successful.

Most recent posts have me seeing it a bit different. If the seller knew about the relume but did not disclose, it changes the story.
I give credit to the OP for being so open and putting this out there. A lot to learn from this.

[Styles Bitchley]

Wow. Thanks to Roliworks for clearing everything up. The seller is a scammer and should be named and shamed. At the very least he should be banned from this community.

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Most recent posts have me seeing it a bit different. If the seller one about the relume but did not disclose, it changes the story.
I give credit to the OP for being so open and putting this out there. A lot to learn from this.

Agreed. The thread had a bad vibe for me, that it wasn’t going to end well for the OP. Too many red flags, which ultimately were confirmed.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by DSplash

- sellers buys this watch for (12 + 4) 16k with a nice 9315. He knows it’s relumed.
- he sells the original bracelet and replaces it with a 93150...probably gains 1-2k more in the process
- he then sells you the watch for 19k without disclosing the relume

If all of this is right, he is a crook!
He’s made 5k on your back and he expects you to accept losing 6?? How can you defend him?

That the OP will lose some money on this deal seems inevitable, but these calculations make assumptions about things that are not indicated in this thread, most notably the price at which the OP purchased the watch. We only know the asking price and I am going to suggest that he probably paid somewhat less. Moreover, he doesn't have to accept the offer from Rolliworks, and if the PP claim is not upheld, he can choose to sell the watch on the open market.

I have often been surprised at how much people will pay for restored watches. Not everyone values originality quite as much as the prominent and visible members of this forum, and there are probably people out there who would be happy to own it. I note that many posts in this thread express positive opinions about the watch. Perhaps it is not strategic to be so critical of the watch.

[mbc]

OP -- my view is that you owe Rolliworks a public apology which is getting lost in this thread. There are multiple posts in which you accused Mike of mis-representing the watch before you got the facts that he did disclose the relume.

I understand you were upset that you made a bad purchase, but it was inappropriate to drag Mike into it without the facts.

He's acted graciously, but i'm not sure he had much of a choice because he was being discredited by you before you even talked to him...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

This is why no one should ever deal with these hobby dealers that think it is easy to run a business. Acting as professionals until things go sour. Then they want consumer protection instead of the easy profit.

See how easy a real dealer solves this. Cred to Mike at ROLLiWORKS for at least trying to help. Even if he only loses when these two throws around numbers and show his margins.

Just to be clear...

Sensitive to Mike's margins and business interests, I specifically asked him if, given the depth of the thread and the debate about the value of the un-original watch, he would be okay with me divulging the $10k number. Only with Mike's blessing did I enter it into the discourse.

[16arp]

Dear all,

I am the seller, I didn't have time to jump in the conversation earlier but took the time to call CloudChaser to talk about it and try to find the best solution for everyone.

Let me explain to you my story. Indeed I bought the 1680 red to Mike and I bought in kind of in a rush and without knowing what re-lumed was and what was the impact on the vintage market!

As Mike could confirm with you I first bought from him a Pepsi GMT 1 that was defective so I had to send him back and after talking to him I told him that instead of getting back the GMT repaired I had my eyes as well on his 1680 Red.

We then work out a deal, (without knowing that RE-LUMED was a big deal on the aftermarket!), the deal was I give him back the GMT that I paid $9,000 + a watch from me that was worth $4,500 but easily resold for 5k + an additional $3,000 so for a total of $17k.

After a while wearing the watch I don't feel comfortable wearing it with the bracelet 9315 that had a problem with the clasp so afraid of dropping the watch during service ( I work in the restaurant and you can have pretty brutal gestures sometimes) I decided to take it to my AD who sold me a brand new 93150 for $1,500.
I sold the 9315 for a bit more which I did on the forum tried to get more but ended up getting only $1,600 my post confirms it.

Then after a while seeing that with my job I was afraid to break the crystal, I started to look again for a GMT II, I putted my 1680 Red on the forum and disclosed as many details and photos I could. I didn't mention the re-lumed not intentionally but because I didn't know what it actually was and I ask you to believe me on that. For me, the watch was genuine from top to bottom as the dial was the authentic Rolex dial.

When we interacted with CloudChaser I did everything his way, I sent him the watch for him to make a full inspection of it with his Watchmaker. And then after approval, he sent me the watch.

When we finished the deal everybody is happy I am wearing my GMT II and CloudChaser is wearing the 1680 we talk on the phone everything is fine for a while. It's just after he wanted to resell it that the re-lumed was a problem.

As I am a stand-up guy I don't want to have a bad reputation and I learned the lesson about re-lumed. We are surely going to find a solution without anyone feeling scammed.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by mbc

OP -- my view is that you owe Rolliworks a public apology which is getting lost in this thread. There are multiple posts in which you accused Mike of mis-representing the watch before you got the facts that he did disclose the relume.

I understand you were upset that you made a bad purchase, but it was inappropriate to drag Mike into it without the facts.

He's acted graciously, but i'm not sure he had much of a choice because he was being discredited by you before you even talked to him...

I have talked at length with Mike. I did not bring Mike into this, other TRFers did. Once the watch was pointed out to be one Mike had sold, people assumed that at the price, it been sold as original.

Rather than go back through the long thread, though, I apologize to Mike for his being involved, as I did to him directly when I spoke with him yesterday.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by 16arp

Dear all,

I am the seller, I didn't have time to jump in the conversation earlier but took the time to call CloudChaser to talk about it and try to find the best solution for everyone.

Let me explain to you my story. Indeed I bought the 1680 red to Mike and I bought in kind of in a rush and without knowing what re-lumed was and what was the impact on the vintage market!

As Mike could confirm with you I first bought from him a Pepsi GMT 1 that was defective so I had to send him back and after talking to him I told him that instead of getting back the GMT repaired I had my eyes as well on his 1680 Red.

We then work out a deal, (without knowing that RE-LUMED was a big deal on the aftermarket!), the deal was I give him back the GMT that I paid $9,000 + a watch from me that was worth $4,500 but easily resold for 5k + an additional $3,000 so for a total of $17k.

After a while wearing the watch I don't feel comfortable wearing it with the bracelet 9315 that had a problem with the clasp so afraid of dropping the watch during service ( I work in the restaurant and you can have pretty brutal gestures sometimes) I decided to take it to my AD who sold me a brand new 93150 for $1,500.
I sold the 9315 for a bit more which I did on the forum tried to get more but ended up getting only $1,600 my post confirms it.

Then after a while seeing that with my job I was afraid to break the crystal, I started to look again for a GMT II, I putted my 1680 Red on the forum and disclosed as many details and photos I could. I didn't mention the re-lumed not intentionally but because I didn't know what it actually was and I ask you to believe me on that. For me, the watch was genuine from top to bottom as the dial was the authentic Rolex dial.

When we interacted with CloudChaser I did everything his way, I sent him the watch for him to make a full inspection of it with his Watchmaker. And then after approval, he sent me the watch.

When we finished the deal everybody is happy I am wearing my GMT II and CloudChaser is wearing the 1680 we talk on the phone everything is fine for a while. It's just after he wanted to resell it that the re-lumed was a problem.

As I am a stand-up guy I don't want to have a bad reputation and I learned the lesson about re-lumed. We are surely going to find a solution without anyone feeling scammed.

Thank you for weighing in.

[roh123]

Can’t see any other solution than 16arp makes a refund and then lives with his decision. Not knowing how a relume affects value is hardly anyone elses problem. It is impossble to make deals if poor buyer decisions should be refundable many deals back.