32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by amanbra

126200

Sept 2019 purchase

Second warranty Sydney rsc

-6 amp 240 dial up and -12 amp 190 crown up full wind before warranty 2.

Now +3 at 280 dial up 0 at 240 crown up.

Might do all five positions over Christmas as I am worried the issue will return on this one.

Did you do all 5 positions?

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Did you do all 5 positions?

Nah not yet, been enjoying the Daytona and family stuff, I do have the week off though…

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Nah not yet, been enjoying the Daytona and family stuff, I do have the week off though…

But I did for my two GMT-Master II with 3285 movements, luckily before Christmas

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by saxo3

But I did for my two GMT-Master II with 3285 movements, luckily before Christmas

Well great that you weren’t busy leading into Christmas. I was very busy but also over the moon. It’s really nice when you get get a 4130 movement and you don’t have any concerns over the movement amp

[saxo3]

Below are 5-position measurement results for 2 watches, taken with a Witschi timgegrapher in Dec 2021, after full caliber winding and following the procedure given in this thread (#1425 and #771).

Lift angle: 53 degrees
Positions: CH = dial up, CB = dial down, 9H = 9 up, 6H = 6 up, 3H = 3 up
X = average, D = delta





Both measured GMT-Master II (3285 caliber) were purchased brand-new from a well known AD in autumn 2018.

No rocket science needed to conclude that these two new 3285 calibers are Rolex Movement Crap.
They will get repaired in 2022/23.

I will never ever buy again any new Rolex watch with a 32xx caliber.

[saxo3]

For comparison

My 16600 Sea-Dweller with 3135 movement.



An iconic Rolex dive watch with an excellent 31xx caliber.

[amanbra]

Saxo they might be totally fine after repair, you’ve had a successful repair and these are from the pre-2019.

I strong to feel they have fixed it now but we’ll need another 6-9months to know for sure as the onset of the issue took about a year for both my previous watches.

It was also about 6 months post first repair for symptoms to creep back.

Very sad to see double issues with the 3285s but they were very early batch.

Not going to lie though I’m super happy about getting my grail watch that’s not 32XX

[vesnyder]

Attached is my first use of my Timegrapher for my 2019 GMT II (3285). The plan is to bring it to my AD later this week, and I suspect that will be the last time I see it for a while. Does not look promising. The power is unknown, but the plan is to test it throughout the day.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by vesnyder

Attached is my first use of my Timegrapher for my 2019 GMT II (3285). The plan is to bring it to my AD later this week, and I suspect that will be the last time I see it for a while. Does not look promising. The power is unknown, but the plan is to test it throughout the day.

Indeed, very bad for a movement after full winding.

12 up is normally not measured, it is a very uncommon wrist position.

Please provide a bit more history about this GMT.

Did you buy this watch as a first owner in 2019 and never measured it until now?

Or is this a second-hand watch (bought recently) from a grey dealer or anybody else?

Was your AD involved in the purchase? If not, I would send it directly to a RSC.

[HiBoost]

Originally Posted by vesnyder

Attached is my first use of my Timegrapher for my 2019 GMT II (3285). The plan is to bring it to my AD later this week, and I suspect that will be the last time I see it for a while. Does not look promising. The power is unknown, but the plan is to test it throughout the day.

Agreed with Saxo, things are not looking good there at all. Seems particularly odd to have a higher amplitude in a vertical position (6U) than a horizontal position (DU/DD).

[vesnyder]

This is a watch I purchased directly for my local AD, new in 2019. This was not done on a full winding - it was probably about 24 hours in. Any suggestions on using the Timegrapher? Should I wait a certain time before recording the measurement?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by vesnyder

This is a watch I purchased directly for my local AD, new in 2019. This was not done on a full winding - it was probably about 24 hours in. Any suggestions on using the Timegrapher? Should I wait a certain time before recording the measurement?

A timegrapher measurement procedure you can find in this thread in posts #1425 and #771. Simply follow that to achieve consistent and comparable results.

Which specific timegrapher questions do you have? Or please describe in detail how you measured.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by HiBoost

Agreed with Saxo, things are not looking good there at all. Seems particularly odd to have a higher amplitude in a vertical position (6U) than a horizontal position (DU/DD).

I fully agree and want to add that at very low amplitudes (about 120-150 degrees) the 32xx movements (others too) can show significant amplitude oscillations, as I have reviewed in various graphs in this thread.

As soon as this is detected by a timegrapher, normally the end of the power reserve arrives rather soon.

From the presented data, I would expect that this specific GMT-Master II has a very reduced power resserve.

Therefore, larger amplitudes in V- than H-positions don't surprise me any longer.

This 3285 caliber seems to be very sick, under the assumption that the presented data were correcly taken after full winding.

BUT ... we just learned that the data were taken after about 24 hours. The measurements should be repeated after FULL WINDING of the 3285.

[vesnyder]

My plan is to continue to test until the power runs out. Then I will charge up to max and test it again. Looking at the directions I am doing it correctly - no rocket science here!

What, if any, response have people gotten from Rolex? Have they acknowledged the issue? Does anybody know if their fixes are working over the long haul? I thought I read they thought Rolex was replacing the entire movement - any truth to that? I am anxious to bring mine into the AD and see what they have to say. From my experience, people in this forum know more than the AD's know!

Thanks!

[saxo3]

What, if any, response have people gotten from Rolex?
- No official response to me. Rolex Sa does not comment at all, they just follow us reading also this forum.

Have they acknowledged the issue?
- No, they would never do that, imho.

Does anybody know if their fixes are working over the long haul?
- Depends on your definition of "long haul". My repair of one 3235 is fine since late 2019. The other two 3285 I have not given for repair yet.

I thought I read they thought Rolex was replacing the entire movement - any truth to that?
- Wrong, as far as I know.

Let's see what others will report.

[vesnyder]

Thanks Saxo! Working since 2019 sounds like they found a fix - especially since you know what you are looking for. I also have a GMT II BLNR purchased in 2020 but so far so good. An "official" response is probably asking for too much - but they should be extending the warranty period. How far back does the problem go?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by vesnyder

Thanks Saxo! Working since 2019 sounds like they found a fix - especially since you know what you are looking for. I also have a GMT II BLNR purchased in 2020 but so far so good. An "official" response is probably asking for too much - but they should be extending the warranty period. How far back does the problem go?

It is probably more than ONE fix. The "health" key observables are the movement amplitudes and rates after t = 0 (full winding) and after t = 24 hours, as for other calibers (not only 32xx).

One might get up to about 6 months unofficial warranty extension.

I think the caliber issues go back to the 32xx introduction dates, which are 2015 (3255), 2016 (3235), 2018 (3285), and 2020 (3230).

[amanbra]

Okay here are my results for the 124270

I full wound it up yesterday morning, waited 24 hrs measured, then full find again waited 15 mins and measured. The waiting 15 mins means that the 300~ amp reduces.

This movement is weird in that 9h position the watch runs fast… matches real world experience where on a recent holiday i rest it crown down over night and it’s running fast…

BE always under 0.2, generally 0.1

My repaired DJ will be available tomorrow.

[saxo3]

All 3230 amplitudes in horizontal and vertical positions look good to me. Same for the averaged rate values X:

X (t = 0): 4.8/5 = 0.96 s/d
X (t = 24): 5.2/5 = 1.04 s/d

The rate changes from t = 0 (fully wound) to t = 24 h are interesting.

Fully wound, the 9H (9Up) rate allows you to speed up your watch at rest overnight, or to slow it down overnight in 3H (3Up) position. You can use these rates for timekeeping compensation.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Okay here are my results for the 124270

I full wound it up yesterday morning, waited 24 hrs measured, then full find again waited 15 mins and measured. The waiting 15 mins means that the 300~ amp reduces.

This movement is weird in that 9h position the watch runs fast… matches real world experience where on a recent holiday i rest it crown down over night and it’s running fast…

BE always under 0.2, generally 0.1

My repaired DJ will be available tomorrow.

According to your data.
With your watch, all indications are that you will simply get better results with timekeeping on the wrist(day to day usage) where attitudes are are moving feast and amplitudes are better(if that's actually a requirement with this movement?).
What is the timekeeping like on the wrist for your watches long term?
Is it acceptable?

It doesn't change the fact that we are simply looking for acceptable stability in long term(10 years +) timekeeping out of these watches. Or at least, comparable performance levels to 31xx movements whilst setting power reserve aside.
Otherwise we may as well just buy watches with Seagull movements and save a s**t load of money and heartache

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by saxo3

It is probably more than ONE fix. The "health" key observables are the movement amplitudes and rates after t = 0 (full winding) and after t = 24 hours, as for other calibers (not only 32xx).

One might get up to about 6 months unofficial warranty extension.

I think the caliber issues go back to the 32xx introduction dates, which are 2015 (3255), 2016 (3235), 2018 (3285), and 2020 (3230).

You really need to have all your watches attended to and re-evaluate long term.
According to the poll, you have a slightly better than 25% chance of getting a dud. Statistically speaking of course

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Dirt

According to your data.
With your watch, all indications are that you will simply get better results with timekeeping on the wrist(day to day usage) where attitudes are are moving feast and amplitudes are better(if that's actually a requirement with this movement?).
What is the timekeeping like on the wrist for your watches long term?
Is it acceptable?

It doesn't change the fact that we are simply looking for acceptable stability in long term(10 years +) timekeeping out of these watches. Or at least, comparable performance levels to 31xx movements whilst setting power reserve aside.
Otherwise we may as well just buy watches with Seagull movements and save a s**t load of money and heartache

I don’t fully understand your question but this particular watch I feel is a bit erratic. Yes the amplitudes are high but the results are a bit weird and felt as such in real world wear.

Almost feels like something is a tad loose in there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by amanbra

I don’t fully understand your question but this particular watch I feel is a bit erratic. Yes the amplitudes are high but the results are a bit weird and felt as such in real world wear.

Almost feels like something is a tad loose in there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks.
That pretty much answeres my question

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by amanbra

I don’t fully understand your question but this particular watch I feel is a bit erratic. Yes the amplitudes are high but the results are a bit weird and felt as such in real world wear.

Almost feels like something is a tad loose in there.

The position-dependent rates of your 124270 (3230) do not fit your expectations, which I try to illustrate in the graph below.



It is a nice example that not all Rolex movements run in the same way but depend on the regulation of the caliber. This is not weird and not a problem of your watch, imho.

The same resting position of 2 watches does not necessarily result in the same gain or lose of time overnight. There are much more parameters that play a role, including temperature.

What also looks good is the fact that all horizontal amplitude values are very close, the same for the vertical ones.

[vesnyder]

Numbers even more confusing! Anxious to hear what the AD tells me tomorrow. My 3285 movement purchased new in 2019.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by vesnyder

Numbers even more confusing! Anxious to hear what the AD tells me tomorrow. My 3285 movement purchased new in 2019.

Increased and erratic amplitudes (as visible in your Table) I have measured often for my 3235 and 3285 movements; the same has been seen by Charles.

It is a characteristic footprint that the end of the power reserve is near, nothing very special for 32xx.

For your 3285 the effect (strong amplitudes increase) seems to start rather early, i.e. after about 48 hours of the 70 hours power reserve. Rates and beat errors are totally off.

The graph below illustrates how the amplitudes strongly increase (red, blue curves) if one measures continuously along the PR. It remains somehow hidden if one can only measure at discrete time intervalls, as done by the 3 other contributors.

[vesnyder]

Saxo - Thanks for the analysis. The time of power reserve is an estimate - once it loses power, I will go back and recalculate based on 70 hour power reserve.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by vesnyder

Saxo - Thanks for the analysis. The time of power reserve is an estimate - once it loses power, I will go back and recalculate based on 70 hour power reserve.

The time of power reserve was measured by several participants in this thread.

Post #1902 shows my summary of all 3235 and 3285 PR test results.



Rolex SA specification for 32xx movements
"Power Reserve Approximately 70 hours"

[TheVTCGuy]

My sub (126610LN) was running a bit slow so I took it in to Joe’s Taco stand and Rolex Service Center. He installed a new battery and now it runs fine!

[saxo3]

You have already forgotten 1937/38?