The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Can’t see any other solution than 16arp makes a refund and then lives with his decision. Not knowing how a relume affects value is hardly anyone elses problem. It is impossble to make deals if poor buyer decisions should be refundable many deals back.

I agree. To both points, I have offered the seller two options, both of which lose me money but both of which feel fair and true. Either way, I would be out about $3500.

If he doesn't accept one of those very fair offers, then I will assume his has been a scam all along. If he takes one of the options, he ends up losing far less than I; I did make the purchase mistake. At this point, I am merely mitigating a bigger potential loss.

We'll see.

Hope you've all had popcorn along the way!

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I agree. To both points, I have offered the seller two options, both of which lose me money but both of which feel fair and true. Either way, I would be out about $3500.

If he doesn't accept one of those very fair offers, then I will assume his has been a scam all along. If he takes one of the options, he ends up losing far less than I; I did make the purchase mistake. At this point, I am merely mitigating a bigger potential loss.

We'll see.

Hope you've all had popcorn along the way!

When you say ‘seller’, are you referring to Rolliworks? Or the guy who told you he was headed to France and he wouldn’t refund you any money?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I agree. To both points, I have offered the seller two options, both of which lose me money but both of which feel fair and true. Either way, I would be out about $3500.

If he doesn't accept one of those very fair offers, then I will assume his has been a scam all along. If he takes one of the options, he ends up losing far less than I; I did make the purchase mistake. At this point, I am merely mitigating a bigger potential loss.

We'll see.

Hope you've all had popcorn along the way!

Why not just get your money back? He did the mistake when he sold it without proper description. Not you. Your potential buyer made you aware of the issue.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Huh?!
Are you joking?!

It’s a big thing. If I wanna buy a birth watch, all original from that year....... and I find out later that case is refinished and dial relumed, I would not be happy!

Have you sold any watches and you missed to mentioned it is a refinished or dial relume?!

You have poor reading skills. I asked a question. Your response was over-the-top, even though it wasn't directed at you.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

When you say ‘seller’, are you referring to Rolliworks? Or the guy who told you he was headed to France and he wouldn’t refund you any money?

"Seller" refers to the person who sold me the watch. Rolliworks is going to buy the watch from me but aside from that, isn't part of it.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by 16arp

When we interacted with CloudChaser I did everything his way, I sent him the watch for him to make a full inspection of it with his Watchmaker. And then after approval, he sent me the watch.

When we finished the deal everybody is happy I am wearing my GMT II and CloudChaser is wearing the 1680 we talk on the phone everything is fine for a while. It's just after he wanted to resell it that the re-lumed was a problem.

So it was a trade? The plot thickens ...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Dan S

So it was a trade? The plot thickens ...

Money and watch combined for a watch. So, yes, a trade.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=700566

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Money and watch combined for a watch. So, yes, a trade.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=700566

So basically you don’t want a refund. You want compensation?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

So basically you don’t want a refund. You want compensation?

No, I don't think so. The option that he has chosen is to refund an amount to me that is less than the money I paid him. I still lose. He made a mistake (I take him at his word) in his description and that hugely affects the value of the watch I bought from him. The currency/commodity used doesn't matter (at least to me). He bought the watch from Rolliworks (I had no idea it was a trade and that point didn't matter to me when I learned of it).

I also offered him the option of refunding the trade portion and keeping the money...in other words subsidizing his 1680. I have worked hard to be fair.

Update: we have agreed in principle to a refund amount. When that amount posts, I will consider the matter resolved and move on (I will update here too, of course).

[Styles Bitchley]

What a soap opera!!

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

What a soap opera!!

Something tells me that the OP is going to be the winner in the end. He will sell the 1680 for far more than the $10k Rolliworks offer.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by 16arp

I putted my 1680 Red on the forum and disclosed as many details and photos I could. I didn't mention the re-lumed not intentionally but because I didn't know what it actually was and I ask you to believe me on that. For me, the watch was genuine from top to bottom as the dial was the authentic Rolex dial.

Sorry, don't buy this explanation for one second. Rolliworks clearly described the dial as being re-lumed when you bought the watch, and you knew this. To say you disclosed "as many details" as you could, is nonsense. You failed to disclose THE most important detail that you could have mentioned.

To say you "didn't know what it (re-lume) actually was" is also nonsense, especially when a 30-second Google search would tell you. And even in the highly unlikely event that you were completely ignorant of the importance of a re-lumed dial, why not mention it to the OP and let him decide if it was important? Your story doesn't add up at all.

In addition, the OP says you two spoke on the phone at length about the watch, and that you described it as "all original." You knew this was not true and that the dial had been re-lumed because of the Rolliworks listing, regardless of how you felt about its importance.

This kind of story hurts all of us vintage lovers/hobbyists, especially those of us who occasionally sell watches, like me and many others. It's shameful.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Something tells me that the OP is going to be the winner in the end. He will sell the 1680 for far more than the $10k Rolliworks offer.

Hi Dan S.

Not at all. Have agreed to selling the watch to Mike at Rolliworks. I'll post the invoice after the fact. Just waiting for the seller to refund per our verbal agreement. Mike and I have plans to talk Monday. And I'm definitely losing $$$ here (not saying for sympathy).

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Hi Dan S.

Not at all. Have agreed to selling the watch to Mike at Rolliworks. I'll post the invoice after the fact. Just waiting for the seller to refund per our verbal agreement. Mike and I have plans to talk Monday. And I'm definitely losing $$$ here (not saying for sympathy).

Why lose money instead of just reversing the deal? Was your GMT2 really bad or did the buyer just pay too much? This doesn’t add up to me.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Not $19k but, yes, I'm definitely the loser.

Being a semi professional reseller or flipper as you are surely you know that doing business involves taking risks.
Creating a profit always does. Other wise we all would be selling watches.

Consider it an education fee

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by roh123

Why lose money instead of just reversing the deal? Was your GMT2 really bad or did the buyer just pay too much? This doesn’t add up to me.

Exactly what I was thinking... this story barely makes sense.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Why lose money instead of just reversing the deal? Was your GMT2 really bad or did the buyer just pay too much? This doesn’t add up to me.

The GMT II is impeccable...as good as they come from that era. I can't force him to ship It to me, though, and he doesn't see that as an option. So I am seeking some reasonable middle ground, which I am beginning to regret.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Exactly what I was thinking... this story barely makes sense.

I can only force his hand on the PayPal portion, not on the trade portion. So I'm providing the opportunity to fix it prior to the formal PayPal process (which had begun but takes 20 days). The PayPal case is a slam dunk, so I'm being nice. Or was.

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

"Seller" refers to the person who sold me the watch. Rolliworks is going to buy the watch from me but aside from that, isn't part of it.

Thanks. I previously missed the seller’s post. If I had seen it, I wouldn’t have posted.

Thanks.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

The GMT II is impeccable...as good as they come from that era. I can't force him to ship It to me, though, and he doesn't see that as an option. So I am seeking some reasonable middle ground, which I am beginning to regret.

Of course you can. He didn’t hold up his side of the trade so just revert it. If he still wants your watch I am sure you are happy to sell it to him. He can afford it when he sells the relumed red sub.

[Cloudchaser]

Update: The seller cannot refund the money via PayPal (or Venmo) because of the claim that has been started. I have been asked to end the claim so that the refund can be paid.

I think I will ask him to wire the money instead...?

Ugh.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Of course you can. He didn’t hold up his side of the trade so just revert it. If he still wants your watch I am sure you are happy to sell it to him. He can afford it when he sells the relumed red sub.

You are correct, technically, but convincing him to agree and ship it to me is impossible, and something PayPal won't help with (wouldnt expect that). I am basically getting what I can at this point to minimize losses and move on.

But, yes, the adult answer (if what he says about money is true) would be to "un-trade." He is unwilling to do that and is basically asking me to subsidize his watch that he is wearing.

[Robtayham]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Exactly what I was thinking... this story barely makes sense.

I agree. I’ve posted a few times that this thread doesn’t add up.

Here’s a version that does makes sense.

1. The seller, 16arp, bought the watch from Rolliworks knowing about relume. 16arp knew he could flip it to an uninformed buyer for a higher price, by not mentioning the relume.

2. The buyer, Cloudchaser, being a novice flipper thought he found an unique opportunity to flip a watch for a quick profit, so he bought the watch.

3. Cloudchaser found a buyer who realized the watch had been relumed. And walked away from the deal.

4. At that point, both 16arp and Cloudchaser got caught in their own schemes. The jig is up.

5. In other words, we’ve been assuming there’a at least one good actor in this exchange, and there isn’t. They’re both bad actors. You know the saying: no honor amongst thieves.

It could be as simple as that. In fact, most times it’s the easy answer.

[vintagetudor]

what a thread.....is it the blind leading the blind?...well no, the original seller was made aware of the re-lume and failed to disclose it ( are we to believe so called vintage watch dealers can't recognise the importance of a dial on a vintage watch?)

Then the buyer (again a hobby dealer) purchases the watch and on receipt doesn't initially realise the dial and hands have been re-lumed

I don't know about everyone else but isn't the first thing you do is reach for a loupe and inspect every inch of the said timepiece?

Are we therefore lead to believe that both the above are naive hobbyists who don't actually know what they're doing but are dealing in thousands of dollars?

My personal take on this is as follows : original seller lied about not realising the importance of a vintage relume on the watch, and intentionally failed to mention it to the buyer in the hope that he was just an average naive punter.

This proved to be correct until said buyer attempted to flip the watch for whatever reason...and coming unstuck when various experts informed him about the relume etc.

The buyer acted in good faith (somewhat naively) and the seller acted deceitfully (knowingly) as the buyer I would be embarrassed and perhaps in the future stick to buying newer models of watches,

As for the seller you should also be embarrassed for being found out...do the decent thing or it will come back and bite you in the arse in the future somewhere down the line.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Robtayham

I agree. I’ve posted a few times that this thread doesn’t add up.

Here’s a version that does makes sense.

1. The seller, 16arp, bought the watch from Rolliworks knowing about relume. 16arp knew he could flip it to an uninformed buyer for a higher price, by not mentioning the relume.

2. The buyer, Cloudchaser, being a novice flipper thought he found an unique opportunity to flip a watch for a quick profit, so he bought the watch.

3. Cloudchaser found a buyer who realized the watch had been relumed. And walked away from the deal.

4. At that point, both 16arp and Cloudchaser got caught in their own schemes. The jig is up.

5. In other words, we’ve been assuming there’a at least one good actor in this exchange, and there isn’t. They’re both bad actors. You know the saying: no honor amongst thieves.

It could be as simple as that. In fact, most times it’s the easy answer.

I NEVER had a buyer for the 1680. Never. I had it listed and a potentially interested party (who has contributed in this thread) pointed out the possibly re-lumed hands. That led to the discovery that everything had been re-lumed. At that point, I thanked the TRFer, updated the listing, and sought advice here.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by vintagetudor

what a thread.....is it the blind leading the blind?...well no, the original seller was made aware of the re-lume and failed to disclose it ( are we to believe so called vintage watch dealers can't recognise the importance of a dial on a vintage watch?)

Then the buyer (again a hobby dealer) purchases the watch and on receipt doesn't initially realise the dial and hands have been re-lumed

I don't know about everyone else but isn't the first thing you do is reach for a loupe and inspect every inch of the said timepiece?

Are we therefore lead to believe that both the above are naive hobbyists who don't actually know what they're doing but are dealing in thousands of dollars?

My personal take on this is as follows : original seller lied about not realising the importance of a vintage relume on the watch, and intentionally failed to mention it to the buyer in the hope that he was just an average naive punter.

This proved to be correct until said buyer attempted to flip the watch for whatever reason...and coming unstuck when various experts informed him about the relume etc.

The buyer acted in good faith (somewhat naively) and the seller acted deceitfully (knowingly) as the buyer I would be embarrassed and perhaps in the future stick to buying newer models of watches,

As for the seller you should also be embarrassed for being found out...do the decent thing or it will come back and bite you in the arse in the future somewhere down the line.

Good summary, IMO.

[swish77]

As a side note to this drama, a suggestion that probably would have ended it before it started:

I strongly urge anyone buying a vintage Rolex to insist on seeing a blacklight/UV photo showing the dial and hands. It should be standard in sales listings nowadays, but at a minimum it should be provided upon request. Very surprising that many vintage dealers and/or hobbyists don't include this now in sales listings. A couple do, such as Chronoholic.

A blacklight/UV photo doesn't answer all questions, but it certainly gives very good clues and can reveal re-lumes, touch-ups, whether lume on dial/hands might be different, etc .... And a small blacklight flashlight can be bought for about $10. There's no excuse not to have one if you're into vintage watches.

[Paulie 50]

Originally Posted by vintagetudor

what a thread.....is it the blind leading the blind?...well no, the original seller was made aware of the re-lume and failed to disclose it ( are we to believe so called vintage watch dealers can't recognise the importance of a dial on a vintage watch?)

Then the buyer (again a hobby dealer) purchases the watch and on receipt doesn't initially realise the dial and hands have been re-lumed

I don't know about everyone else but isn't the first thing you do is reach for a loupe and inspect every inch of the said timepiece?

Are we therefore lead to believe that both the above are naive hobbyists who don't actually know what they're doing but are dealing in thousands of dollars?

My personal take on this is as follows : original seller lied about not realising the importance of a vintage relume on the watch, and intentionally failed to mention it to the buyer in the hope that he was just an average naive punter.

This proved to be correct until said buyer attempted to flip the watch for whatever reason...and coming unstuck when various experts informed him about the relume etc.

The buyer acted in good faith (somewhat naively) and the seller acted deceitfully (knowingly) as the buyer I would be embarrassed and perhaps in the future stick to buying newer models of watches,

As for the seller you should also be embarrassed for being found out...do the decent thing or it will come back and bite you in the arse in the future somewhere down the line.

There is a lot of sense in this post, but I will remind the buyer what I wrote at the very start of this thread " Caveat Emptor " .

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by swish77

As a side note to this drama, a suggestion that probably would have ended it before it started:

I strongly urge anyone buying a vintage Rolex to insist on seeing a blacklight/UV photo showing the dial and hands. It should be standard in sales listings nowadays, but at a minimum it should be provided upon request. Very surprising that many vintage dealers and/or hobbyists don't include this now in sales listings. A couple do, such as Chronoholic.

A blacklight/UV photo doesn't answer all questions, but it certainly gives very good clues and can reveal re-lumes, touch-ups, whether lume on dial/hands might be different, etc .... And a small blacklight flashlight can be bought for about $10. There's no excuse not to have one if you're into vintage watches.

Thank you. You are 100% correct.

[Cloudchaser]

An update...and the last for a few days at least:

The seller has refunded the money portion of the transaction via PayPal. Since a claim has been started, the refund will take 3-5 days to process (he has sent screencaps). In 3-5 days, I should have funds back. On Monday, I will sell the watch to Mike at Rolliworks (and post proof here for my newly minted haters).

I still lose, but I have minimized losses and have learned hugely valuable lessons.

I need a nap.