32xx movement problem poll and data thread

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Dirt

Probably right
But they have a Rolex

Box and papers bro!


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[Dirt]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Yep this makes a tonne of sense as the spring will be “tighter/stiffer” when cold.


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It's not so much the Balance spring, but the Balance itself plays a bigger part when it comes to temp variations.
Think of it this way. The Balance in simple trems is a large(in watchmaking terms) metal ring and despite the fact that it is made of a highly dimensionally stable material(especially in these modern times), it expands in diameter when hotter and contracts in diameter when cold.
When it is in the expanded state it swings slower which has the effect of slowing the rate of the watch and when it's colder it shrinks which speeds its rotation up.

If you have a look at the latest ingenious design of the Balance which Grand Seiko have implemented along with their newest escapement, you can gain an insight into how complex the solution to the issues around temp variations and the effect it has on the balance diameter can be for the manufacturers to resolve
As they say. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Getting that swing right can be a problem

In this case, box and papers are going to be of no consequence Bro

[Donkos]

My friend has a new Rolex and he is one minute behind every day

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Dirt

It's not so much the Balance spring, but the Balance itself plays a bigger part when it comes to temp variations.

If you have a look at the latest ingenious design of the Balance which Grand Seiko have implemented along with their newest escapement, you can gain an insight into how complex the solution to the issues around temp variations and the effect it has on the balance diameter can be for the manufacturers to resolve
As they say. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Getting that swing right can be a problem

In this case, box and papers are going to be of no consequence Bro

Though I don't disagree with the expansion of the balance wheel I feel (just based on logic) that the hair spring which is actually really long a sensitive to small changes will feel the effects of thermal expansion / contraction way more than the balance wheel.

Happy to be corrected but if I were a betting man that would be my bet.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Donkos

My friend has a new Rolex and he is one minute behind every day

ah welcome him to the club =(

[Onequik135i]

1 min behind within 24 hour period ? He might not be setting the time correctly is my guess there.



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[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Donkos

My friend has a new Rolex and he is one minute behind every day

Watch is ok and he is late?

[alphadweller]

Adding a comparison between my 2017 SD43 and 2020 Sub41 Date. Dial up position, full wind, first 52h (missed the last 18h).

EDIT:
Both watches have the 3235 caliber.
I used Watchcheck app on my phone (atomic clock).
Both watches were left in dial up position for the entire test, after a full wind at the beginning.
I collected deviation data during the first 52 hours.

My provisional conclusion is the first batch of 3235s might have been faulty, but Rolex might have addressed the issue with their more recent batches. More data needed of course from myself and many more owners to have a significant sample. This is anecdotal.

Also, I'm ok with the SD43 despite its negative pattern. Not serious enough to justify taking it to the RSC, to me at least. If it drops drastically, then I might take care of it.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by alphadweller

Adding a comparison between my 2017 SD43 and 2020 Sub41 Date. Dial up position, full wind, first 52h (missed the last 18h).

EDIT:
Both watches have the 3235 caliber.
I used Watchcheck app on my phone (atomic clock).
Both watches were left in dial up position for the entire test, after a full wind at the beginning.
I collected deviation data during the first 52 hours.

My provisional conclusion is the first batch of 3235s might have been faulty, but Rolex might have addressed the issue with their more recent batches. More data needed of course from myself and many more owners to have a significant sample. This is anecdotal.

Also, I'm ok with the SD43 despite its negative pattern. Not serious enough to justify taking it to the RSC, to me at least. If it drops drastically, then I might take care of it.

A nice and very simple comparison between two 3235 watches.

The difference is obvious and your two data graphs say more than 1000+ words.

I tend to disagree with parts of your conclusion, especially the meaning of first "batch".

That's more the first "years" because the 3235 caliber was officially released at Baselworld 2015 and first introduced inside the 39 mm Pearlmaster.

[saxo3]

Your SD43 has -4 to -5 s/d after full winding in dial up position, it would be interesting to measure what the amplitude is and how the rates in vertical positions are.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

A nice and very simple comparison between two 3235 watches.

The difference is obvious and your two data graphs say more than 1000+ words.

I tend to disagree with parts of your conclusion, especially the meaning of first "batch".

That's more the first "years" because the 3235 caliber was officially released at Baselworld 2015 and first introduced inside the 39 mm Pearlmaster.

Originally Posted by saxo3

Your SD43 has -4 to -5 s/d after full winding in dial up position, it would be interesting to measure what the amplitude is and how the rates in vertical positions are.

Would also be interesting to see results over time. That older one, if consistent, may just need regulation. Looking at the shape of the serving set of graphs, the two seem to be behaving in the same way over the course of two days, just too different degrees.

If that SD is consistent, maybe it’s accuracy is just off, B.S.s the movement having “the” issue?

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Would also be interesting to see results over time.

Yes

Originally Posted by dannyp

That older one, if consistent, may just need regulation.

In principle yes, but unlikely.
For the 126600 Sea-Dweller (2017) I would repeat the same test in other 3235 positions.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by saxo3

In principle yes, but unlikely.
For the 126600 Sea-Dweller (2017) I would repeat the same test in other 3235 positions.

Of course. That's why seeing it over time is important: Is it continuing to lose more and more time. That's what happened to mine over the course of about six weeks. But the OP's seems to have gain-loss patterns that more closely mirror a healthy watch. Impossible to tell with a day's stats, though.

[dieselgeek]

So I live in DFW and I took mine to RSC to have them look at it. It went back to normal on my Timegrapher , and I’ve been tracking the accuracy sense. Pretty happy. On the Timegrapher it shows -2 a day so I leave it dial up sometimes when I take it off.

[CharlesN]

I am sure you have all being taking lots of measurements and recording them properly.

I have also being doing just that and researching several other anomalies found on the 32xx movement.

So, Don’t fret or worry …

[alphadweller]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Your SD43 has -4 to -5 s/d after full winding in dial up position, it would be interesting to measure what the amplitude is and how the rates in vertical positions are.

Originally Posted by dannyp

Would also be interesting to see results over time. That older one, if consistent, may just need regulation. Looking at the shape of the serving set of graphs, the two seem to be behaving in the same way over the course of two days, just too different degrees.

If that SD is consistent, maybe it’s accuracy is just off, B.S.s the movement having “the” issue?

Originally Posted by saxo3

Yes

In principle yes, but unlikely.
For the 126600 Sea-Dweller (2017) I would repeat the same test in other 3235 positions.

Originally Posted by dannyp

Of course. That's why seeing it over time is important: Is it continuing to lose more and more time. That's what happened to mine over the course of about six weeks. But the OP's seems to have gain-loss patterns that more closely mirror a healthy watch. Impossible to tell with a day's stats, though.

I did some tracking of my 2017 SD43 over the past 5 years. Unfortunately, I bricked one of the mobile phones and lost 2017 and 2018 data. On top of my head, the SD43 used to average -0.6 in 2017 and -1 s/d in 2018.
I dug data from 2019, 2020 and 2021 (on top of 2022) from three other phones. I don't have a timegrapher for the amplitude.
Here are the graphs showing average rates. This could give a very rough idea on how the accuracy has been degrading over the years. Again, this is not scientific and very anecdotal.

Same methodology as in my post #2438:
- I used Watchcheck app on my phones (atomic clock).
- The watch was left in dial up position for the entire test, after a full wind at the beginning and every 48 to 70h later on, approximately.
- I collected this deviation data during 80h in 2019, 1400h in 2020, 440h in 2021 and just 52h so far in 2022. Not comparable periods of course, but again, this is only presented as a rough illustration.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by alphadweller

I did some tracking of my 2017 SD43 over the past 5 yesrs.

Excellent work Victor, very systematic tests!

Below, I added some questions to your graphs.

Don't understand why you have two axis titles, what is plotted vs. time: Deviation (s) or Average rate (s/d)?

What is your overall conclusion?

[Vince_76]

Does the 3285 movement have these issues? I haven’t been following the thread that closely.

I have a 3235 that is progressively running slower though. No worries now, but we’ll see.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by Vince_76

Does the 3285 movement have these issues?

Yes, definitely, see post #2165, data for two 3285 watches (126710BLRO, 126711CHNR)

[Vince_76]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Yes, definitely, see post #2165, data for two 3285 watches (126710BLRO, 126711CHNR)

Thanks, what a bummer. Was toying with the idea of purchasing a CHNR. No more 32xx movements for me.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Vince_76

I have a 3235 that is progressively running slower though. No worries now, but we’ll see.

This is literally what would cause me to worry.


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[Vince_76]

Originally Posted by amanbra

This is literally what would cause me to worry.


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Still under a good term of warranty so not sweating it as of yet. For reference, I purchased about 2 years ago and it was virtually spot on. Now running ~ -2sec/day.

Not willing to take a chance on another 32xx movement though.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by Vince_76

Still under a good term of warranty so not sweating it as of yet. For reference, I purchased about 2 years ago and it was virtually spot on. Now running ~ -2sec/day.

Not willing to take a chance on another 32xx movement though.

Yeah so I guess it depends on the person but for me a watch like that results in me constantly checking as opposed to enjoying the watch.

Two years to go from 0 to -2 is actually a long time. I had three go slow but over about 6 months to a year. My first watch the dj has gone to rsc twice for this… The other two sold as soon as the issues started to show.

I also am now in the group of no more 32xx…

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[TswaneNguni]

Originally Posted by amanbra

Yeah so I guess it depends on the person but for me a watch like that results in me constantly checking as opposed to enjoying the watch.

Two years to go from 0 to -2 is actually a long time. I had three go slow but over about 6 months to a year. My first watch the dj has gone to rsc twice for this… The other two sold as soon as the issues started to show.

I also am now in the group of no more 32xx…

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3135/4130

[mike morris]

I had 3 watches with 3235 and sold because this problem starting after 6-8 months.
This photo my 3135 submariner used from April 2019, all most ever day.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by TswaneNguni

3135/4130

4130 bro, simply the best.




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[alphadweller]

Originally Posted by saxo3

Excellent work Victor, very systematic tests!

Below, I added some questions to your graphs.

Don't understand why you have two axis titles, what is plotted vs. time: Deviation (s) or Average rate (s/d)?

What is your overall conclusion?

Hi Saxo. Thanks, man. I'm plotting average rate, forgot to change the Y axis title.

My answers to your questions:

1. Yes, the watch was at rest in dial up position. I probably wound it up because it was getting close to the 70h PR. I can't remember 100%.

2. Nothing happened in the first 200h. Same dial up position at rest. Agreed, erratic at first but very consistent after that (next 1200h).

3. I have no explanation for the increase / decrease. Same methodology, the watch didn't move.

4. Same test, although only during 52h (dial up at rest, one single full wind at the start).

My conclusion: my SD43 seems to have gone from spec (+2/-2 s/d) to out of spec (-5 s/d) in a 5 years timeframe. Still acceptable to me. Warranty expires next week, I won't be taking it to the RSC unless things get significantly worse. To me it's just not worth it. I love the watch all the same.

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by alphadweller

Still acceptable to me. Warranty expires next week, I won't be taking it to the RSC unless things get significantly worse. To me it's just not worth it. I love the watch all the same.

I'd take it in. Being out of spec (both Rolex and COSC) is reason to service, and this is your last chance to get it done under warranty. You'll feel silly if it's running -10/day in six months.

[amanbra]

Originally Posted by dannyp

I'd take it in. Being out of spec (both Rolex and COSC) is reason to service, and this is your last chance to get it done under warranty. You'll feel silly if it's running -10/day in six months.

100% agree

[RogerOP]

I’ve had to take my 3230 in for the second time as I have no ability to wind the watch.

My DJ41 is completely fine, but the OP41 has been nothing but issues for me.