Apple's stand against the Feds

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

You're entitled to your opinion. I will pray tonight that you or your family are never a victim of a terrorist attack. And I will pray that our government has the tools they need to protect all of us.

It would be wonderful to live in a world where we don't even have to think about things like this.... What's that John Lennon song? "You may say I'm a dreamer.."

Except Apple isn't entitled to theirs?

American soldiers don't swear an oath to protect the government, they swear an oath to defend the constitution. And men don't fight for their government, they fight for their families and their way of life. Yet you keep going back to supporting the government in all your arguments, as if the government is all knowing and infallible.

The founding fathers, who invented the US government, didn't trust the government. The Bill of Rights was adopted for that very reason. In your arguments, you are willing to subjugate all that is intrinsically American to a government that from its very origin could not be trusted not to oppress the people. A government that Snowden showed was in fact abusing its privilege and spying on Americans.

You may continue to side with the bureaucrats at the FBI who seek to intervene in every aspect of American life. I will continue to side with Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and the founding fathers who defined what it is to be an American. We agree to disagree

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Except Apple isn't entitled to theirs?

American soldiers don't swear an oath to protect the government, they swear an oath to defend the constitution. And men don't fight for their government, they fight for their families and their way of life. Yet you keep going back to supporting the government in all your arguments, as if the government is all knowing and infallible.

The founding fathers, who invented the US government, didn't trust the government. The Bill of Rights was adopted for that very reason. In your arguments, you are willing to subjugate all that is intrinsically American to a government that from its very origin could not be trusted not to oppress the people. A government that Snowden showed was in fact abusing its privilege and spying on Americans.

You may continue to side with the bureaucrats at the FBI who seek to intervene in every aspect of American life. I will continue to side with Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and the founding fathers who defined what it is to be an American. We agree to disagree

Generally agreed. Government agencies like to propagate the idea that supporting the government is good / patriotic / American. Yet I find it hard to believe that every three letter agency, and their millions of salaried workers, are all furthering American values all of the time.

Government agency chiefs have incentive to expand the size, scope and powers of their organizations. I won't blame them for trying to increase their personal influence and relevance. But someone needs to put a check on the bureaucratic bloat, which is what I think is happening in this Apple dispute.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Except Apple isn't entitled to theirs?

American soldiers don't swear an oath to protect the government, they swear an oath to defend the constitution. And men don't fight for their government, they fight for their families and their way of life. Yet you keep going back to supporting the government in all your arguments, as if the government is all knowing and infallible.

The founding fathers, who invented the US government, didn't trust the government. The Bill of Rights was adopted for that very reason. In your arguments, you are willing to subjugate all that is intrinsically American to a government that from its very origin could not be trusted not to oppress the people. A government that Snowden showed was in fact abusing its privilege and spying on Americans.


You may continue to side with the bureaucrats at the FBI who seek to intervene in every aspect of American life. I will continue to side with Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, and the founding fathers who defined what it is to be an American. We agree to disagree

"As if the government were all-knowing and infallible" At least do this, if you are going to paraphrase my posts, read them before doing so. Let's count, how many times have I stated my government is not perfect and the chance of abuse does exist? Counting.... Well, THREE, just in the last couple pages. But will I continue to support it? Absolutely. I support the government that works hard to keep you and your family from being the victim of a terrorist attack. And as an American Military Officer I took an oath and fought (and could have died) for people of the United States, and I'd do it again if given the chance. IMHO, Snowden is a traitor, but that is such a different topic I won't go down that route. Someone can start a different thread about that if they want. If you are an American citizen and feel the government is not trustworthy, then (once again) run for office and change it, or vote the current ones out and your choice in. As for me, I will continue to support it and believe Apple is not doing their civic duty to protect the citizens of the US. Was the brutal murder of those innocent human beings not enough? Do more need to die? Give the government the information from that phone and charge lots of money for it. Then do whatever is necessary to change the encryption or other safeguards and charge lots MORE money for it. If, GOD forbid, there is information on that phone that could thwart another brutal massacre, and Apple doesn't give it up in time, then that is blood on their hands.

Written from my new Android tablet after my IPad and IPhone went in the trash yesterday. That is my personal method of protest.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Written from my new Android tablet after my IPad and IPhone went in the trash yesterday. That is my personal method of protest.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Response = Google run Android. They have their own interests at stake too along exactly the same lines as Apple. Google is another company run the same as Apple, they even say they "Do no Evil" when clearly these days they're just another corporate juggernaut only interested in their own bottom line.

After reading a NY Times article this morning, I couldn't help but remember your post when it said:

At a 2014 shareholders’ meeting, Mr. Cook told investors that if they wanted him to make decisions based only on the bottom line, “then you should get out of the stock".

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

"As if the government were all-knowing and infallible" At least do this, if you are going to paraphrase my posts, read them before doing so. Let's count, how many times have I stated my government is not perfect and the chance of abuse does exist? Counting.... Well, THREE, just in the last couple pages. But will I continue to support it? Absolutely. I support the government that works hard to keep you and your family from being the victim of a terrorist attack. And as an American Military Officer I took an oath and fought (and could have died) for people of the United States, and I'd do it again if given the chance. IMHO, Snowden is a traitor, but that is such a different topic I won't go down that route. Someone can start a different thread about that if they want. If you are an American citizen and feel the government is not trustworthy, then (once again) run for office and change it, or vote the current ones out and your choice in. As for me, I will continue to support it and believe Apple is not doing their civic duty to protect the citizens of the US. Was the brutal murder of those innocent human beings not enough? Do more need to die? Give the government the information from that phone and charge lots of money for it. Then do whatever is necessary to change the encryption or other safeguards and charge lots MORE money for it. If, GOD forbid, there is information on that phone that could thwart another brutal massacre, and Apple doesn't give it up in time, then that is blood on their hands.

Written from my new Android tablet after my IPad and IPhone went in the trash yesterday. That is my personal method of protest.

You do realize that if the court order was addressed to Google, they would do the exact same thing as Apple?

While your protest is your right as a consumer, Apple booked that revenue long ago.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

You do realize that if the court order was addressed to Google, they would do the exact same thing as Apple?

While your protest is your right as a consumer, Apple booked that revenue long ago.

And I am having a HELL of a time trying to figure this Android stuff out!!!

One thing I have to give to Apple, their products were pretty darn easy to work Not easy to switch after using it for so many years ..... I might be digging through the trash bin tomorrow....

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

"
Written from my new Android tablet after my IPad and IPhone went in the trash yesterday. That is my personal method of protest.

I think I'll protest the FBI by buying another Rolex

[rouxeny]

I thought this was very good.

The FBI clearly wants to set precedence here, and unfortunately for Apple, they picked this case.

https://medium.com/@thegrugq/feeble-...1a2#.is4zfjwl3

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I think I'll protest the FBI by buying another Rolex

Post pics.


I discarded my IOS stuff just because it made me feel better.... But I have to admit so far I am completely frustrated with the Lilly pad... Or whatever the heck it's called.

[JRolex]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

"As if the government were all-knowing and infallible" At least do this, if you are going to paraphrase my posts, read them before doing so. [...] If, GOD forbid, there is information on that phone that could thwart another brutal massacre, and Apple doesn't give it up in time, then that is blood on their hands.

Written from my new Android tablet after my IPad and IPhone went in the trash yesterday. That is my personal method of protest.

Just to let you know, Google is in this fight too... I think you should toss those right next to your iPhone and iPad. Google - a company were consumer trends and customer data is key to their bottom line - has even given strong public support and has offered help in Apple's case against the court order.

I beg you to read this. These last few days have gone back and forth, with quite a bit of construed information passing along (even in this forum).

http://www.cnet.com/au/news/apple-ve...n-a-tizzy-faq/

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Post pics.


I discarded my IOS stuff just because it made me feel better.... But I have to admit so far I am completely frustrated with the Lilly pad... Or whatever the heck it's called.

Get your IOS out of the trash, then send a protest letter to Apple saying you won't be buying their watch.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

Post pics.


I discarded my IOS stuff just because it made me feel better.... But I have to admit so far I am completely frustrated with the Lilly pad... Or whatever the heck it's called.

I have a MBP and an iPad mini, I find these perfect for me, I do prefer a Nexus phone however.

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

After reading a NY Times article this morning, I couldn't help but remember your post when it said:

I don't believe Mr.Cook or Apple for a minute.

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

They mostly know what is on the device. Apparently, the device was routinely backing itself up to the iCloud. Apple gave the government the iCloud data. Now, the government is saying it also must have what was added to the device since the last back up. A backup that was apparently disrupted AFTER the phone was in government possession.

The government has developed its case and made arrests. There is not any compelling evidence that there is anything useful to be had on the phone that wasn't already obtained through other means. This is clearly a power grab.

There isn't any compelling evidence because they don't know hence they want to know which is what I believe this is all about.

Edit - Direct quote from the Director of the FBI -

"Maybe the phone holds the clue to finding more terrorists. Maybe it doesn't. But we can't look the survivors in the eye, or ourselves in the mirror, if we don't follow this lead."

Obviously others believe it's more about the power grab you mention which is why we're 9 pages into this with pretty much nothing new to say for most of them

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I don't believe Mr.Cook or Apple for a minute.

Of course you don't since there's no other way for you to respond. It must be an interesting life to only believe what you I want to believe while ignoring facts, evidence, and history.




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[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Of course you don't since there's no other way for you to respond. It must be an interesting life to only believe what you I want to believe while ignoring facts, evidence, and history.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They're a giant corporation that's pretty much now reliant on one device for their profits, the very device in question. They've clearly spent huge amounts of time and money developing the admittedly impressive security on this device and will now protect it and their profits any way they can, in fact they have too - the main responsibility of any publicly owned company like Apple is to deliver value and profit to their shareholders.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

They're a giant corporation that's pretty much now reliant on one device for their profits, the very device in question. They've clearly spent huge amounts of time and money developing the admittedly impressive security on this device and will now protect it and their profits any way they can, in fact they have too - the main responsibility of any publicly owned company like Apple is to deliver value and profit to their shareholders.

The fact that you see this is an issue of bottom line completely disqualifies you from making any argument here. The point of contention for Apple is too far above your ability to grasp intellectually.

BTW- The number one responsibility for a publicly traded company may be to deliver earnings per share but this is done by holding true to it's business purpose purpose and mission statement. You choose to ignore that part which also makes your cynicism offensive

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

The fact that you see this is an issue of bottom line completely disqualifies you from making any argument here. The point of contention for Apple is too far above your ability to grasp intellectually.

BTW- The number one responsibility for a publicly traded company may be to deliver earnings per share but this is done by holding true to it's business purpose purpose and mission statement. You choose to ignore that part which also makes your cynicism offensive

I could make some accusations that your thinking or viewpoints completely disqualify you from making any argument here....but I won't as that would be offensive and I won't lower myself to that level or throw any petty insults back at you. I think you should take a deep breath and calm down if you want to continue to have polite discussion

Apple are playing the social responsibility and rights card to protect their bottom line. Their business purpose is to make money.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I could make some accusations that your thinking or viewpoints completely disqualify you from making any argument here....but I won't as that would be offensive and I won't lower myself to that level or throw any petty insults back at you. I think you should take a deep breath and calm down if you want to continue to have polite discussion

Apple are playing the social responsibility and rights card to protect their bottom line. Their business purpose is to make money.

Please enlighten me on which viewpoints disqualify me for this argument. My argument has been using logic, foresightedness and a basic understanding of law and precedence.

Lets recap your arguments so far: First, it's Apple supports terrorism by not submitting to the court order. Second it's an issue of profit. Third, it's social responsibility disguised as profit. I'm sure there are some others in there but I won't go through all your posts again.

You again show your cynicism by stating that Apple is playing the social responsibility card to protect their bottom line when in fact, the quote from Tim Cook was exactly that, a response to shareholders regarding social responsibility.

Do you expect anyone to take you seriously at this point? If I were to take you seriously, I'd tell you to hide in a bunker with cash under the mattress

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

Please enlighten me on which viewpoints disqualify me for this argument. My argument has been using logic, foresightedness and a basic understanding of law and precedence.

Lets recap your arguments so far: First, it's Apple supporting terrorism byt not submitting to the court order, then its an issue of profit, and now its social responsibility disguised as profit.

You again show your cynicism by stating that Apple is playing the social responsibility card to protect their bottom line when in fact, the quote from Tim Cook was exactly that, a response to shareholders regarding social responsibility.

Do you expect anyone to take you seriously at this point? If I were to take you seriously, I'd tell you to hide in a bunker with cash under the mattress

I just said, I'm not descending into he said/she said insults and offence with you or anyone else. The fact you have had to is very telling.

My point and view of Apple has always been the same. Apple is now supporting/helping terrorists to protect itself and it's business/profits. I'm sorry if I didn't manage to say every single part of what I think about the case and about Apple in my first post on the topic but I certainly have not changed my mind or attitude toward them.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I just said, I'm not descending into he said/she said insults and offence with you or anyone else. The fact you have had to is very telling.

My point and view of Apple has always been the same. Apple is now supporting/helping terrorists to protect itself and it's business/profits. I'm sorry if I didn't manage to say every single part of what I think about the case and about Apple in my first post on the topic but I certainly have not changed my mind or attitude toward them.

My comments weren't insults but merely observations of your posts. Since you can't distinguish the two, well... Never mind






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[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

I just said, I'm not descending into he said/she said insults and offence with you or anyone else. The fact you have had to is very telling.

My point and view of Apple has always been the same. Apple is now supporting/helping terrorists to protect itself and it's business/profits. I'm sorry if I didn't manage to say every single part of what I think about the case and about Apple in my first post on the topic but I certainly have not changed my mind or attitude toward them.

How do you connect Apple to supporting terrorists? Are they sending money? Are they providing aid? Are they programming software for them? Are they providing free hardware? Your statement is immature at best and slanderous at worst.

The FBI has said that Apple fully cooperated with all requests and warrants, right up to the point the FBI tried something many people, including Google, feel is illegal. The FBI is now lobbying, cajoling, and offering compromises, which aren't the actions of a righteous agent. Rather, they're the actions of an agency caught out in a scheme and trying to spin the story.

High level FBI administrators had made statements that they were waiting for a case like this to attempt this legal maneuver. Members of Congress see it as a power grab and as a threat to billions of dollars of internet commerce. Well informed and powerful people are lining up against the FBI.

Answer this: Why did the FBI order an action on the phone that itself prevented access to data on the phone while it was in their possession? Did they want to create conditions that would trigger a requirement to have the device decrypted?

[fmc000]

This thread went haywire, unfortunately.

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[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by rr-nyc

My comments weren't insults but merely observations of your posts. Since you can't distinguish the two, well... Never mind






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Clearly they were, and if you don't even know when you're being insulting then, well....Never mind.

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

How do you connect Apple to supporting terrorists? Are they sending money? Are they providing aid? Are they programming software for them? Are they providing free hardware? Your statement is immature at best and slanderous at worst.

The FBI has said that Apple fully cooperated with all requests and warrants, right up to the point the FBI tried something many people, including Google, feel is illegal. The FBI is now lobbying, cajoling, and offering compromises, which aren't the actions of a righteous agent. Rather, they're the actions of an agency caught out in a scheme and trying to spin the story.

High level FBI administrators had made statements that they were waiting for a case like this to attempt this legal maneuver. Members of Congress see it as a power grab and as a threat to billions of dollars of internet commerce. Well informed and powerful people are lining up against the FBI.

Answer this: Why did the FBI order an action on the phone that itself prevented access to data on the phone while it was in their possession? Did they want to create conditions that would trigger a requirement to have the device decrypted?

Answer: They made a technical mistake in haste to get the data accessed.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Answer: They made a technical mistake in haste to get the data accessed.

They have some of the best technical people in the world investigating a mass killing. How do they explain a blunder like this? Name the guy that was fired over it (j/k, they won't fire anyone for this).

Everything I've read about this event says that these were isolated idiots "going postal" on coworkers. The terrorism slant is more a copycat terrorism wannabe case than some broad conspiracy. Which makes the FBI quest for the backdoor all the more sinister.

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

They have some of the best technical people in the world investigating a mass killing. How do they explain a blunder like this? Name the guy that was fired over it (j/k, they won't fire anyone for this).

Everything I've read about this event says that these were isolated idiots "going postal" on coworkers. The terrorism slant is more a copycat terrorism wannabe case than some broad conspiracy. Which makes the FBI quest for the backdoor all the more sinister.

Skilled people can still make mistakes, especially when under immense pressure.

You might be right. The FBI might be right, but as the FBI Director said they just want to find out.

What really surprises and even shocks me a little is that people here are more trusting and supportive of a corporate behemoth such as Apple that solely exists to make money (and then squirrels it away abroad using tax avoidance schemes to not pay taxes in the USA) than they are of their democratically elected government and it's LEA's.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Skilled people can still make mistakes, especially when under immense pressure.

You might be right. The FBI might be right, but as the FBI Director said they just want to find out.

What really surprises and even shocks me a little is that people here are more trusting and supportive of a corporate behemoth such as Apple that solely exists to make money (and then squirrels it away abroad using tax avoidance schemes to not pay taxes in the USA) than they are of their democratically elected government and it's LEA's.

No one elected the FBI. Nobody elected the government bureaucracy that actually runs everything. The elected officials in Congress are split on this. Many see the danger of allowing an agency a backdoor into everyone's private lives, as well as the damage to internet security that will result.

There is no way this backdoor can be protected. Consider this - The Chinese government has stolen all the technical data for every nuclear weapon design the US has. Can something be more sensitive, or more guarded than nuclear weapons designs? Yet, the US government lost control of the information. And, the US government lost control of the information on most of its security clearance holders to China hacking last summer.

Once a back door is built, can anyone reasonably expect that such a powerful tool can be protected from foreign governments, or worse, criminal and terrorist regimes? Civil liberties argument aside, do we really need the information on this phone so badly that we are willing to sacrifice security on hundreds of millions of other devices? Why would any sane person be willing to take that risk?

[DeeTee]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Skilled people can still make mistakes, especially when under immense pressure.

You might be right. The FBI might be right, but as the FBI Director said they just want to find out.

What really surprises and even shocks me a little is that people here are more trusting and supportive of a corporate behemoth such as Apple that solely exists to make money (and then squirrels it away abroad using tax avoidance schemes to not pay taxes in the USA) than they are of their democratically elected government and it's LEA's.

In all fairness what you call schemes to hide taxes and make money etc is wrong for Apple? They were given laws and rules and they abided by them, they just conformed and adapted with the market.

On the flip side, we have bad apples in government and law enforcement who seem to get away with murder literally, even with heavy media attention and scrutiny.

So it makes sense that people are rooting for Apple/Google since they are their only fair voice against a government that's ever so powerful.

Not everything is perfect and it sucks, I just hope as Americans we can set an example to the rest of the world again on a balance between freedom and responsibility.