The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[roh123]

Haters? This thread just shows how hobby dealing can become problematic when problems occur. I think it is a good reminder for everyone to know why we pay extra to professional dealers.

Glad it worked out.

[Sjmoore11]

Originally Posted by swish77

As a side note to this drama, a suggestion that probably would have ended it before it started:

I strongly urge anyone buying a vintage Rolex to insist on seeing a blacklight/UV photo showing the dial and hands. It should be standard in sales listings nowadays, but at a minimum it should be provided upon request. Very surprising that many vintage dealers and/or hobbyists don't include this now in sales listings. A couple do, such as Chronoholic.

A blacklight/UV photo doesn't answer all questions, but it certainly gives very good clues and can reveal re-lumes, touch-ups, whether lume on dial/hands might be different, etc .... And a small blacklight flashlight can be bought for about $10. There's no excuse not to have one if you're into vintage watches.

Great suggestions!
And I just ordered a UV flashlight.

[wappinghigh]

Originally Posted by Sjmoore11

Great suggestions!
And I just ordered a UV flashlight.

Sorry what do you see luming up old Tritium lume with a UV flashlight? if it's more than 20 years old? Should it light up blue? .... then stay bright a while (few secs) or not hold any luminescence at all? Maybe I'm daft but I don't get how this helps. To test lume don't you just take the watch out into the sunlight a while then walk into a closet and see if it glows?

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

Haters? This thread just shows how hobby dealing can become problematic when problems occur. I think it is a good reminder for everyone to know why we pay extra to professional dealers.

Glad it worked out.

"Haters" is a half-joke and recognition that I have egg on my face too.

[wappinghigh]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

An update...and the last for a few days at least:

The seller has refunded the money portion of the transaction via PayPal. Since a claim has been started, the refund will take 3-5 days to process (he has sent screencaps). In 3-5 days, I should have funds back. On Monday, I will sell the watch to Mike at Rolliworks (and post proof here for my newly minted haters).

I still lose, but I have minimized losses and have learned hugely valuable lessons.

I need a nap.

I think you are very lucky with this one dude so cut your losses, be grateful and be glad you have got out with this outcome....very lucky... most collectors would have probably taken a massive haircut with something like this.. Consumer laws still fail to cover many types of online sales... Cheers

[TMEwatch11]

Quite interesting but i think am confused..

[roh123]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

Sorry what do you see luming up old Tritium lume with a UV flashlight? if it's more than 20 years old? Should it light up blue? .... then stay bright a while (few secs) or not hold any luminescence at all? Maybe I'm daft but I don't get how this helps. To test lume don't you just take the watch out into the sunlight a while then walk into a closet and see if it glows?

Depending on era of lume and type of model it could light up. In this example it shouldn’t have done. Therefore it is one of many ways to find out if something is touched up. This does however require the person to have knowledge of the model he/she is looksing at. Something the buyer and seller in this thread lacked.

[wappinghigh]

^ BTW cloud, what are you going to try source next?

[wappinghigh]

Originally Posted by roh123

Depending on era of lume and type of model it could light up. In this example it shouldn’t have done. Therefore it is one of many ways to find out if something is touched up. This does however require the person to have knowledge of the model he/she is looksing at. Something the buyer and seller in this thread lacked.

You mean if the lume has died, it doesn't show fluorescence under direct UV? Ok got it... so if I shine a UV torch onto my '96 tritium Explorer the lume should be dead... no light... that it? (otherwise it could be a newer replacement dial)??>

[roh123]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

You mean if the lume has died, it doesn't show fluorescence under direct UV? Ok got it... so if I shine a UV torch onto my '96 tritium Explorer the lume should be dead... no light... that it? (otherwise it could be a newer replacement dial)??>

I have no idea if a 96 Explorer should glow. A 70’s sub shouldn’t while most mid 60’s should. It is just very different depending on what you are looking at. Therefore the UV light alone is not enough. You need to know what to look for.

[wappinghigh]

Originally Posted by roh123

I have no idea if a 96 Explorer should glow. A 70’s sub shouldn’t while most mid 60’s should. It is just very different depending on what you are looking at. Therefore the UV light alone is not enough. You need to know what to look for.

ok .... interesting... does anyone have any links on this? What specifically should/shouldn't glow under UV light? Be very useful..

[roh123]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

ok .... interesting... does anyone have any links on this? What specifically should/shouldn't glow under UV light? Be very useful..

50’s radium glow like radium under UV
60’s tritium glow until around 1968 something
70’s tritium normally doesn’t glow at all. Early and mid 70’s Daytonas, Day-Dates, Datejusts etc glow briefly.

It’s hard to make a list. Best is just to handle enough watches in your hand and you’ll learn what’s what. There’s rarely shortcuts building knowledge.

[wappinghigh]

Originally Posted by roh123

50’s radium glow like radium under UV
60’s tritium glow until around 1968 something
70’s tritium normally doesn’t glow at all. Early and mid 70’s Daytonas, Day-Dates, Datejusts etc glow briefly.

It’s hard to make a list. Best is just to handle enough watches in your hand and you’ll learn what’s what. There’s rarely shortcuts building knowledge.

Sure - but you would have thought such knowledge would have been built up here on this forum. It is after all a rolex forum and this vintage subforum has been going for years with many many knowledgeable people... anyway maybe time to start a list/thread and pin it to the top? I mean it's one heck of a crucial test on a fake or relumed dial (as this thread depicts) and seems very cheap to do ( $10 buck UV torch!) ...

[Juhuatai]

Any sub or explorer with tritium after 68/69 will be dead. 96 should be dead.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

Sure - but you would have thought such knowledge would have been built up here on this forum. It is after all a rolex forum and this vintage subforum has been going for years with many many knowledgeable people... anyway maybe time to start a list/thread and pin it to the top? I mean it's one heck of a crucial test on a fake or relumed dial (as this thread depicts) and seems very cheap to do ( $10 buck UV torch!) ...

You learn this by handling a lot of watches. Preferably good ones. This is not the place to become an expert. Even if I am know some knowledgeable people post here from time to time.

[Styles Bitchley]

Much appreciation to Roh and Springer for their contributions to this thread. Makes you realize how important reliable knowledge is in this world.

[wappinghigh]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

Any sub or explorer with tritium after 68/69 will be dead. 96 should be dead.

Cool.. there you go... we now have a pretty good list started already... I'm a bit staggered frankly that one of the mods or experts around here hasn't made one up or started a pinned thread already... I mean many folks (me included!) would come here to find out how to judge if the vintage watch they are interested in, is or isn't? "fake"...my guess that would be No1 reason for a visit.... and this seems one heck of an awesome test to get yourself underway in working that out!!! Going to exclude many many before the detailed forensics starts... anyway. Cheers for that!

[roh123]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

Cool.. there you go... we now have a pretty good list started already... I'm a bit staggered frankly that one of the mods or experts around here hasn't made one up or started a pinned thread already... I mean many folks (me included!) would come here to find out how to judge if the vintage watch they are interested in isn't fake...my guess that would be No1 reason for a visit.... and this seems one heck of an awesome test to get yourself underway in working that out!!! Going to exclude many many before the detailed forensics starts... anyway. Cheers for that!

Well.. Just because a watch that should glow glows it doesn’t mean it is untouched. The other way around is of course easier but this is just one of many ways to evaluate a watch.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

^ BTW cloud, what are you going to try source next?

My new approach involves a very technical approach; I am going to feel around in every couch cushion and jacket pocket at every thrift store in the U.S. in the hunt for a free Paul Newman Daytona.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

Sorry what do you see luming up old Tritium lume with a UV flashlight? if it's more than 20 years old? Should it light up blue? .... then stay bright a while (few secs) or not hold any luminescence at all? Maybe I'm daft but I don't get how this helps. To test lume don't you just take the watch out into the sunlight a while then walk into a closet and see if it glows?

It's not just about glowing or not glowing, although that can be part of it. It's about does it look different under UV to how tritium should look on the reference? Does the tritium on the dial and hands react the same? Any inconsistencies?

In the OP's case, a UV photo would have revealed immediately that the watch was relumed. Even one of the regular photos after light exposure (earlier on this thread) shows a green glow. Under a UV light, it would glow like a torch. That should be an obvious red flag, even to rookies.

Also, to be clear, dead tritium can also react. See below for my 3.7 million 5512 under UV. The original tritium shows up quite white under UV and is consistent dial and hands, but then it dies as soon as the UV is removed.

Original tritium on other watches might retain a slight glow but then die after a little while. As pointed out above, different eras/watches can react differently.

[mattedialdoc]

I'm a dirty rotten flipping flipper and have been for a year. Here's my story:
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

....and that’s an insightful bit. Interesting life you’ve lived!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[wappinghigh]

^ Thanks for that extremely useful info Swish...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by mattedialdoc

I'm a dirty rotten flipping flipper and have been for a year. Here's my story:
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

....and that’s an insightful bit. Interesting life you’ve lived!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Indeed. This thread has made me think that an update to that thread could be useful for different reasons to different people. Can't believe the journey over the last two years!

You've been busy if you've read both!

[wappinghigh]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

My new approach involves a very technical approach; I am going to feel around in every couch cushion and jacket pocket at every thrift store in the U.S. in the hunt for a free Paul Newman Daytona.

Lolz dude... your threads are awesome!!! Such insight into the "rolex world" is very much appreciated! Seems like, even one experienced in "vintage rolex", can get caught out once in a while? (Doesn't give a newbie much hope then - does it?!)...so your flipping flipper days are now over eh? Tell me mate, how did such an experienced flipper get caught out on such a dud? Were you "under the weather" (so to speak) when you hit the buy it now button? A brain fade perhaps? or was it the old fat finger "problem" ol' sport??

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by wappinghigh

Lolz dude... your threads are awesome!!! Such insight into the "rolex world" is very much appreciated! ...so your flipping flipper days are now over eh? Tell me mate, how did such an experienced flipper get caught out on such a dud? Were you "under the weather" (so to speak) when you hit the buy it now button? A brain fade perhaps? or was it the old fat finger "problem" ol' sport??

Well, I had this very hot feeling in my trousers. I was convinced that it was my money burning a hole in my pocket (I've heard that can happen), so I spent that money to rid myself of the stuff and reduce potential burn injuries. Ironically, I still ended up getting burned.

As for flipping, I can neither confirm nor deny. Just kidding, I'm totally still flipping the f out of new models whenever I can. However, since I've flipped and found so many, I became a bit of a magnet for trades and opportunities.

Then things got interesting. I decided that I wanted to wear some older pieces and all these trade offers could solve that. And things have gone really well (until this).

There are many lessons to learn here...and I have learned even more than that.

[2001jesper]

Really glad to hear that you found a resolution, great contributions by the experts and what a story. Hope that the loss was at an absolute minimum; imo you should have been refunded in full given what was uncovered.

[Filipão]

Thumbs up for Rolliworks.

[Sublovin]

Have you considered offering it for sale with the proper disclosures? You might get more then $10,000.

[CalSRQ1]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

I have a couple of 1960s Rolex that still glow for a few seconds after being exposed to direct bright light. I think that's pretty normal and not indicative of a relume. Just for the record.

I just took my '67 1016 to Rik for a service and he confirmed the same thing...couple of quick seconds of lume after bright light is normal

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by CalSRQ1

I just took my '67 1016 to Rik for a service and he confirmed the same thing...couple of quick seconds of lume after bright light is normal

Normal for that watch of that year, but not for this one. The debate about whether it is re-lumed was determined definitively.