what parts makes a genuine rolex become a fake.

[EDDVM]

every one prefers a 100% original, un-refinished rolex, with box and papers ect but... first I was seeing alot of genuine watches with nice replica band's.... does this make the watch fake... got my thinking about the tulex...every one blasted him about selling a fake watch. flaged him on e-bay but it was a original watch with a refinished dial so FAKE!!. FYI I have owned a genuine Tutor AND rolex on the face. un-modified original. I owned it, it was made about 1954 and servecied at a AD in oregon.

Ok when buying a used rolex ... if lets say the case is genuine and the movement is a ETA..is it a fake. which I have seen real examples of this. mostly older conversions. not eta replica's saying the oh yeah the case is ligit but vintage 1500 and 16000 case's with a old eta as the movment. or the case is a replacement and the movment is correct like I saw with a 18k presedent case.

Or what about rolex cases with the wrong rolex movments... They are not factory so they must be fake.

What can be considerd a rolex and what is considerd a fake.?
like my Presedent has the original case and movement. A aftermarket dial, and the crystal is converted from a plastic to saphire. And it has a aftermarket diamond bezel. so it my $10,000 prez. watch a fake?.

What amount of aftermarket parts are allowed before the watch is no longer a rolex......

[Andad]

Interesting question and one that I'm sure will have many answers.

To answer you main question:
A rolex that has an aftermarket dial with the Rolex crown on it or 'Rolex' printed on it has a fake dial. Rolex would not work on it although that might differ from Country to Country.

An aftermarket bracelet that has no Rolex markings on it of any kind is an aftermarket bracelet that fits a Rolex.
An aftermarket bracelet that has the Rolex crown on it or any other Rolex identification is a Fake Rolex Bracelet.
If a watch is all genuine Rolex but has a movement that was not Rolex made then it is a fake.
IMO this works for all branded proprietary items that have registered trademarked logos, designs, names etc etc.
I am sure the experts will be along to straighten me out.

My old Tudor has 'Rolex' on the dial. Is this a fake or did this circa 1948 vintage model originally have 'Rolex' on the face.

[Safetrends]

Originally Posted by EDDVM

every one prefers a 100% original, un-refinished rolex, with box and papers ect but... first I was seeing alot of genuine watches with nice replica band's.... does this make the watch fake... got my thinking about the tulex...every one blasted him about selling a fake watch. flaged him on e-bay but it was a original watch with a refinished dial so FAKE!!. FYI I have owned a genuine Tutor AND rolex on the face. un-modified original. I owned it, it was made about 1954 and servecied at a AD in oregon.

Ok when buying a used rolex ... if lets say the case is genuine and the movement is a ETA..is it a fake. which I have seen real examples of this. mostly older conversions. not eta replica's saying the oh yeah the case is ligit but vintage 1500 and 16000 case's with a old eta as the movment. or the case is a replacement and the movment is correct like I saw with a 18k presedent case.

Or what about rolex cases with the wrong rolex movments... They are not factory so they must be fake.

What can be considerd a rolex and what is considerd a fake.?
like my Presedent has the original case and movement. A aftermarket dial, and the crystal is converted from a plastic to saphire. And it has a aftermarket diamond bezel. so it my $10,000 prez. watch a fake?.

What amount of aftermarket parts are allowed before the watch is no longer a rolex......

If it was not Rolex built as per factory specs using Rolex parts it is a Frankenstein watch which looses value greatly.

Any part not Rolex is not authentic Rolex and the watch looses value greatly aslo, sometimes it is worthless.

Authentic Rolex is a watch which is a factory built with 100% Rolex parts, replacment parts have to be the exact on that was on the watch when it left the Rolex factory.

Dials that have been repainted are not accepted Rolex repair.

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by directioneng

Interesting question and one that I'm sure will have many answers.

To answer you main question:
A rolex that has an aftermarket dial with the Rolex crown on it or 'Rolex' printed on it has a fake dial. Rolex would not work on it although that might differ from Country to Country.

An aftermarket bracelet that has no Rolex markings on it of any kind is an aftermarket bracelet that fits a Rolex.
An aftermarket bracelet that has the Rolex crown on it or any other Rolex identification is a Fake Rolex Bracelet.
If a watch is all genuine Rolex but has a movement that was not Rolex made then it is a fake.
IMO this works for all branded proprietary items that have registered trademarked logos, designs, names etc etc.
I am sure the experts will be along to straighten me out.

My old Tudor has 'Rolex' on the dial. Is this a fake or did this circa 1948 vintage model originally have 'Rolex' on the face.

...Eddie may NOT be aware of the US Code, but the Lanham Act is very detailed, LONG, and boring reading. HOWEVER, it covers the points that Eddie made.

...TECHNICALLY, the AM dial would constitute a violation of the act IF SOLD that way and NOT divulged. However, there are MANY Rolex watches, and other brands, that just by nature of them vintage etc, would have had the dials refi'd somewhere along the way in their life.

...and, as noted above, Rolex could/would refuse to service the watch unless the owner agreed to a genuine replacement.

...what else should be considered, is the fact that Rolex will no longer svc the vintage stuff anyway, and there are several outstanding watch makers/jewelers known that WILL service them.

...additionally, is a 50 year old watch that has a gear replaced/lathed because of wear, and NON-availability thru Rolex, a counterfeit because of the non-Rolex gear a counterfeit??? I would think the thinking would be that old watches that fall into these categories are readily accepted into watch collections and embraced accordingly. Let's face it, there are very old watches that are sent to China to be rehabed by (I can't remember his name) that does great things for vintage movements that are otherwise kaputt. I have seen MANY posts referring watch owners either to Bob Ridley OR the gentleman in China, on BOTH TRF and VRF.

...we work hard here on TRF to weed out fakes and those listings where the sellers are NOT forth coming with obvious problems etc.

...take some time and google "Lanham Act". VERY informative, but very LONG and BORING reading.

...one last note: Rolex is a BRAND unto itself, just as Tudor is a brand unto itself, etc. (Eddie, do not put that watch on eBay or I WILL get you...chuckle.)

...hope this helps and makes sense.

..."SPRINGER" is the local resident EXPERT on the Lanham Act....bless his heart....sorry, Johnny...

[springer]

Personally, most wouldn't consider non-trademarked items a major sin against Rolex. Some might, I don't. Many members here are wearing watches with aftermarket bezel inserts, crystals and diamond dials and bezels not manufactured by Rolex. Personally, if you choose to have diamonds added to your wife's bezel, that is a personal choice and your decision.

Most of your questions seem centered around altered vs fake watches. Does altering a Rolex make it fake, not necessarily. Does misrepresenting an altered watch to be something that it isn't make it fake - maybe not fake but surely fraud.

The Rolex/Tudor watch dials have been discussed here many times. The Rolex stamped Tudor dials are done for one reason only - to enhance the value of the watch. Many buyers get conned by these fake dials under the assumption that they are buying a Rolex.

Counterfeit parts are trademarked with Rolex trademarks and are illegal. Not much more to say about this.

My wife wears a stainless ladies Datejust that she converted many years ago when it was popular to make conversions. Since I met her, she's added a genuine Rolex dial and bezel with diamonds. The diamonds were added by a jeweler and not by Rolex. Now, she's happy, and I'm happy that she's happy. She could care less that the diamonds weren't installed by Rolex. Rolex will not service the watch which is inconsequential because we don't use Rolex for service.

My 1983 Mustang GT convertible has many parts on it that aren't marked Autolite or Motorcraft, which doesn't change the fact that it is a 1983 Mustang GT. Now, if I placed a Chevy 350 engine, or 351 Ford in it, to me it would no longer be original but altered. It would still be the same car but the value would drastically be changed by an engine swap. Same analogy may be applied to Rolex watches. The only significant difference is that Rolex wants to force everyone to use their parts to protect their standing and prestige within the business world. Not many companies can operate with this business model. Rolex has seemed to master it.

Most of the concerns with members here on the forum are with fake watches, parts and accessories, along with totally misrepresented watches on ebay or elsewhere that are being sold to unwitting buyers who really don't know the difference between altered, fake or fraud. To them, we're here to level the playing field because "if the game is rigged, you can't lose if you don't play."

jP

[Welshwatchman]

Great looking car.


(even though it's a fake)

[Safetrends]

Not to hurt anyone’s feeling here however:

There is a big difference between a car and a Rolex.

Less parts to account for.
More people want a Rolex watch that is 100% or it is not considered authentic Rolex. Why buy a Rolex watch that has aftermarket parts than one that is 100% for the same price bracket.
We have people who know Rolex watches inside and out, that goes for the Mustangs also.
Your Mustang GT is rare, however if someone was to buy it they would inspect it for authentic Ford parts/rust before forking over a lot of cash for it. Mustang clubs in the United States judge Mustangs on being 100% authentic. Take the 1965 1/2 Mustang. OEM parts are still being produced at top dollar, however you pay for what you get and it shows.

Please: I do not want to start a thread war it my only opinion here.

[Safetrends]

Hello Paul,
Did you know Christmas is over?

Mr Snowman is melting in the sun as we speak.

:r ofl:

[springer]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Great looking car.


(even though it's a fake)

Thanks Paul, a one-owner fake at that! Happy New Year to you!

[Safetrends]

Originally Posted by springer

Thanks Paul, a one-owner fake at that! Happy New Year to you!

Very nice you must have a second car and keep this in the garage all the time it is sooooo nice. How many miles?

[springer]

Originally Posted by Safetrends

Very nice you must have a second car and keep this in the garage all the time it is sooooo nice. How many miles?

Thanks ST,

64,000 miles and it doesn't get out much anymore. I used to show my older Mustangs and Shelbys through the years and learned quite a lot about keeping a car original if you plan on showing it. I have every part I've taken off this car to include the original battery, battery cables, exhaust, wheels and tires, hoses etc. All the take-off parts are still in excellent condition as they were removed for modifications or changed long before a need to be replaced. The seats are from a 1986 Mustang, originals are in storage.

[Safetrends]

Originally Posted by springer

Thanks ST,

64,000 miles and it doesn't get out much anymore. I used to show my older Mustangs and Shelbys through the years and learned quite a lot about keeping a car original if you plan on showing it. I have every part I've taken off this car to include the original battery, battery cables, exhaust, wheels and tires, hoses etc. All the take-off parts are still in excellent condition as they were removed for modifications or changed long before a need to be replaced. The seats are from a 1986 Mustang, originals are in storage.

Verry smart!

[tudorman8276]

Originally Posted by springer

Thanks ST,

64,000 miles and it doesn't get out much anymore. I used to show my older Mustangs and Shelbys through the years and learned quite a lot about keeping a car original if you plan on showing it. I have every part I've taken off this car to include the original battery, battery cables, exhaust, wheels and tires, hoses etc. All the take-off parts are still in excellent condition as they were removed for modifications or changed long before a need to be replaced. The seats are from a 1986 Mustang, originals are in storage.

...H I - J A C K E R...

[Flaxmoore]

Originally Posted by Safetrends

Take the 1965 1/2 Mustang.

1964 1/2, you mean. Serial #1 is at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn- seen it many times.

[DadsWatch72]

Any part that is non Rolex makes it counterfeit. Read the bold type at the bottom of the service papers.

[Safetrends]

Don't have no stinkin service papers!


:r ofl:

[springer]

Dad, maybe you can find us that federal law.

[DadsWatch72]

Originally Posted by springer

Dad, maybe you can find us that federal law.

I think it is included in the Lanham (Trademark) Act.

http://www.bitlaw.com/source/15usc/

I'm no lawyer but this looks like it might have something to do with it. I'm sure it's here somewhere in the Lanham Act.

No State or other jurisdiction of the United States or any political subdivision or any agency thereof may require alteration of a registered mark, or require that additional trademarks, service marks, trade names, or corporate names that may be associated with or incorporated into the registered mark be displayed in the mark in a manner differing from the display of such additional trademarks, service marks, trade names, or corporate names contemplated by the registered mark as exhibited in the certificate of registration issued by the United States Patent and Trademark Office.


http://www.bitlaw.com/source/15usc/1127.html


The intent of this Act is to regulate commerce within the control of Congress by making actionable the deceptive and misleading use of marks in such commerce; to protect registered marks used in such commerce from interference by State, or territorial legislation; to protect persons engaged in such commerce against unfair competition; to prevent fraud and deception in such commerce by the use of reproductions, copies, counterfeits, or colorable imitations of registered marks; and to provide rights and remedies stipulated by treaties and conventions respecting trademarks, trade names, and unfair competition entered into between the United States and foreign nations.

http://www.bitlaw.com/source/15usc/1116.html


(B)
As used in this subsection the term "counterfeit mark" means--
(i)
a counterfeit of a mark that is registered on the principal register in the United States Patent and Trademark Office for such goods or services sold, offered for sale, or distributed and that is in use, whether or not the person against whom relief is sought knew such mark was so registered; or (ii)
a spurious designation that is identical with, or substantially indistinguishable from, a designation as to which the remedies of this Act are made available by reason of section 220506 of title 36, United States Code; but such term does not include any mark or designation used on or in connection with goods or services of which the manufacture or producer was, at the time of the manufacture or production in question authorized to use the mark or designation for the type of goods or services so manufactured or produced, by the holder of the right to use such mark or designation.

[springer]

Aftermarket crystals, added diamonds to bezels does not violate the Lanham Act. The Act protects trademarks.