Interesting fact about 'Ball Watch Company'

[Mosco]

Did you fellas know that the saying 'Being on the Ball' came directly as a result of Ball Watch Company making their claim to fame building incredibly accurate railroad clocks? When the train came on time, it was 'ON THE BALL'. Just thought I'd share this tidbit of useless information.

[TheBluePrince]

Interesting fact but it's not true whatsoever.

The phrase comes from keeping one's eye on the ball in sports games.

If it did come from a timing/clock connection then it would much more likely be from (and is often incorrectly attributed to) the timing ball (the worlds oldest) at the Royal Grenwich Observatory which raises and drops every day at 1pm. This is what all captains set their ships chronometers from when leaving port in London years ago and was also called being on the ball and long before railways and railway clocks.

[Safetrends]

OK, is this going to be a debate?

[Mosco]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Interesting fact but it's not true whatsoever.

The phrase comes from keeping one's eye on the ball in sports games.

If it did come from a timing/clock connection then it would much more likely be from (and is often incorrectly attributed to) the timing ball (the worlds oldest) at the Royal Grenwich Observatory which raises and drops every day at 1pm. This is what all captains set their ships chronometers from when leaving port in London years ago and was also called being on the ball and long before railways and railway clocks.

So wait, does it come from sports games or RGO? I would love to see proof of your claim somewhere, though. Not the first time I was wrong, but, well, prove it.

[TheBluePrince]

No need, the etymology of the phrase is pretty well defined.

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Mosco

So wait, does it come from sports games or RGO? I would love to see proof of your claim somewhere, though. Not the first time I was wrong, but, well, prove it.

There is older proof of it's use relating to sports. However the RGO ball predates this sporting use but use of the phrase in relation to the RGO ball does not.

Early record of Cricket, football, golf, baseball etc record it's use.

[Mosco]

Ahh, I think I know the difference - there are two different idioms: 'Getting on the Ball' and 'Being on the Ball'. The 'Getting on the Ball' came from early days of baseball, when the batter had to 'get on the ball' with difficult, often curved pitches. I stand by my first statement, 100%.

[TheBluePrince]

I see where the two similar phrases could be slightly different, but the phrase "On the ball" i'm sure is certainly first related to sport. It's use in sport predates the creation of the ball watch company, and certainly the use of their clock on the railways. By that time the phrase was also already being used in relation to the Grenwich timing ball. However i'm sure that because of the Ball clocks on the railways it did start to be used in relation to them by people who had not used or heard of the phrase before although they were not the first to use it.

[ParisDakarBmw]

I think both are interesting, and probably accurate. There is most likely a first use of the term, prior to the Ball watch company, but picked up, and used by the train workers. Interesting. Plus "On the Rolex" doesn't flow too well.

[Mosco]

That's simply illogical, since, despite sounding similarly, the two mean completely different things. 'Being on the Ball' means to the second accuracy, and not a daily progression of the Greenwich ball. 'Keeping your eye on the ball', or 'Getting on the ball' is definitely sports related, alhough I am not so certain that it preceeded the railroad use of the BWC Clocks in the 19th century. Further research is in order.

[ParisDakarBmw]

Mosco, I expect a complete dissertation by noon.......

[Safetrends]

Greg is it time for Hijacking the thread now?

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Mosco

That's simply illogical, since, despite sounding similarly, the two mean completely different things. 'Being on the Ball' means to the second accuracy, and not a daily progression of the Greenwich ball. 'Keeping your eye on the ball', or 'Getting on the ball' is definitely sports related, alhough I am not so certain that it preceeded the railroad use of the BWC Clocks in the 19th century. Further research is in order.

But it's not a question of being or getting. It's just the phrase "On the ball".

This was certainly used in relation to sports and in relation to the Grenwich ball before it was by railway folk.

Nothing definiate or definitive (and you won't find anything so) but this link gives some more background

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/on-the-ball.html

I actually questioned the use of the phrase a few months ago after a Grenwich guide was telling a foreign group that the phrase originated from their time ball. I was sure it didn't (having heard it originated from sport from somewhere before) and did look into it a fair bit, but like i said it is very hard to definitvely proove it's first use. I'm sure it wasn't from Ball station clocks though.

[wegeman76]

Webster Clay Ball (October 6, 1847 – 1922) was a jeweler and watchmaker born in Fredericktown, Ohio. After a two-year apprenticeship to a jeweler, Ball settled in Cleveland, Ohio to join a jewelry store. When Standard Time was adopted in 1883, he was the first jeweler to use time signals from the United States Naval Observatory, bringing accurate time to Cleveland.

In 1891 there was a collision between Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway trains at Kipton, Ohio, which occurred because an engineer's watch had stopped. The railroad officials commissioned Webb C. Ball as their Chief Time Inspector, in order to establish precision standards and a reliable timepiece inspection system for railroad chronometers.

He established strict guidelines for the manufacturing of sturdy, reliable precision timepieces, including resistance to magnetism, reliability of time keeping in 5 positions, isochronism, power reserve and dial arrangement, accompanied with record keeping of the reliability of the watch on each regular inspection.

His original jewelry business in Cleveland grew into the Ball Watch Company (currently headquartered in Neuchatel, Switzerland), which used other watch companies' movements, perfecting them and then reselling them. Ball Watch Company also ordered watches complete from other watch companies. Ball used movements from the top American manufacturers, Elgin, Hamilton, and Waltham, and switched to Swiss movements as early as the 1940s in their wristwatches. The Waltham Watch Company complied immediately with the requirements of Ball's guidelines, later followed by Elgin National Watch Company and most of the other American manufacturers: Aurora, Hamilton, Hamden, E. Howard & Co., Illinois, Seth Thomas, later on joined by some Swiss watch manufacturers: Audemars Piguet, Gallet, Longines, Record Watch, Vacheron Constantin.

Webb C. Ball became the vice president of the Hamilton Watch Company and focused his efforts on developing watches for the railroads. On February 10, 1907, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers honored his efforts by appointing Ball as an honorary member.

They were the first wrist watch allowed to be used on the Railroads, (using a Swiss manual wind movement) followed quickly by the first American made wrist watch on "the roads", Elgin.

The firm was family owned by direct descendants until the 1990s when the right to use the name was sold. The new firm continues the tradition, using Swiss-made (primarily ETA) movements and making watches for sportsmen and even for some small railroads.

At the end of his career, Webb C. Ball was overseeing over 125,000 miles of rail tracks in the U.S.A., Mexico & Canada , having greatly contributed to the security of all railroad systems. The Horological Institute of America celebrated his efforts on October 20, 1921. He died in 1922.

[ParisDakarBmw]

Wow! A verbal boxing ring! I'm ringside for this one!

In the right corner, wearing red trunks, and a fedora, the reighning champ from Cincinatti, the one, the only, "Mosco"

In the other corner, hailing from London, wearing blue trunks, the heavy weight challengar, attempting to score a victory for the belt, The challenger "The Blue Prince"

Let the fight begin!

DING DING!

[Zirotti]

Originally Posted by ParisDakarBmw

Wow! A verbal boxing ring! I'm ringside for this one!

In the right corner, wearing red trunks, and a fedora, the reighning champ from Cincinatti, the one, the only, "Mosco"

In the other corner, hailing from London, wearing blue trunks, the heavy weight challengar, attempting to score a victory for the belt, The challenger "The Blue Prince"

Let the fight begin!

DING DING!

Haha nice!

[wegeman76]

They are a fantastic watch and very easy to wear.

Great history

[Mosco]

Originally Posted by ParisDakarBmw

Wow! A verbal boxing ring! I'm ringside for this one!

In the right corner, wearing red trunks, and a fedora, the reighning champ from Cincinatti, the one, the only, "Mosco"

In the other corner, hailing from London, wearing blue trunks, the heavy weight challengar, attempting to score a victory for the belt, The challenger "The Blue Prince"

Let the fight begin!

DING DING!

I think it may go to a 'draw' on this one... Sort of the 'chicken or egg' scenario we find ourselves here. Sadly, my source of information is not in print, but rather knowledge of someone who was intimately tied into the company. But still, I will do some additional digging, as I hate to lose or 'break even.'

[esm]

when I was about to buy a Ball EMII last year, the salesman told me that the reason they call it "Ball Watch Company" is because their watch is so accurate, its always on the ball.

And I was there thinking.... So it has nothing to do that the fact the founder of the company was called Webster Clay Ball?!?!....

Needless to say I didn't end up buying that EMII (mainly because I didn't agree with thief customer service and pricing policy)

[TheBluePrince]

It's a nice case of the same phrase emerging from completely different places and meanings.

"Old Smythe is doing well at the crease today eh?" "Yes, he's certainly on the ball!"

"Is your chronometer accurate Captain?" "Why of course Bosun, it's on the ball!"

"Was your train on time?" "Yes, it was on the ball"

All different all true. I guess the only one you could certainly date is the railway one if you knew the year the clocks were introduced. But then i know that old naval hands and historians claim that the phrase was in use from when the ball was in 1833 although this isn't proven or if it was it's been lost to the archives, and sports people will point to their use of it, and the text from 1864 althogh of course again their could be earlier texts and usage. I'd say that the fact that the use of the railway clocks (and thus allowing the phrase to be used) started way after the emergence of ball sport and the timing ball meanns that it's use related to the rail clock must have come after the other two.

[WatchTimes]

Mr Ball really did wonders for the watch world and accuracy standards....

No two ways about it.

Ball watches really have a special place in history of railroads, standardization of time, accuracy standards and the entire watch world (he was a VP of Hamilton)

To see a cool Ball watch look in the for sale section as I must part with a very rare unique piece in pursuit of one of my true grails.

[WatchTimes]

Also doing a quick search "Where did the phrase on the ball come from"
and this came up as the only answer I could find and it was on a few various pages (not watch or rail road related)

April 18th, 1891 a local passenger train collided with a fast mail train in Kipton, Ohio. The event took the lives of eight people and was eventually dubbed The Great Kipton Train Wreck.
Legend has it one of the engineer's watches was 4 minutes slow and this discrepancy was later found to be the route cause of the fatal crash. Some still argue about the watch being slow, but due to this wreck on the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railroad, the General Superintendent of the Lake Shore Line appointed Webster Clay Ball as Chief Inspector to investigate time keeping.
Ball was a Cleveland jeweller with the reputation of being able to fix just about any watch. As a direct result of his investigation of railroad timekeeping, he instituted watch performance and inspection standards in 1893. Subsequently he became Chief Time Inspector for many railroads and had many American manufacturers (Howard, Waltham, Elgin, Hamilton & Hampden), produce a quality railroad timekeeper: the Ball Railroad Watch.
Many of the aforementioned watch manufacturers produced railroad grade watches, but Ball watches were considered to be the best, the Cadillac of American railroad watches.
It is also important to note that Ball's successful system was the first to be accepted on a broad scale. It was his system that set the standards for the railroads and helped establish accuracy and uniformity in timekeeping. It was his system that resulted in railroad time and railroad watches being recognized as STANDARD, whenever accuracy in time was required.
"In general, it becomes accepted that when the average person asks a railroad man the time, he is assured it is correct


So I have to think Greg is on the money with this one.

I was also told this from one of the heads of Ball USA

Also when you tour the Railroad museum in Ohio (or Indiana, I can't recall which one it was as I have been to both) they give credit for the term to Mr Ball for the same reason above. I was there 2 summers ago wearing a Ball watch and the tour guide was amazed as they had never seen a current production Ball there before (since then Ball has done shows there) and they have a couple vintage Ball pocket
watches on display there.

[Mosco]

Jeremy, thanks dude - we most likely had the same source... Need to find it in print to bury the argument though, still looking.

[2005rivers]

I think it is hard to figure out exactly where phrases come from, It is hard to trace. It is still cool hearing about the history in the subject.

[bewithabob]

I think I saw something about this in the book of Genesis.... It was Adam who first said to Eve, "That's another fine mess you've gotten me into to. If you had been on the ball, you wouldn't have told me to eat that thing ..." Or maybe it was Oliver Hardy to Stan Laurel....

[TheBluePrince]

Originally Posted by Mosco

Jeremy, thanks dude - we most likely had the same source... Need to find it in print to bury the argument though, still looking.

Lol. You're no closer to burying the argument than a fairytale princess is to finding the end of a Rainbow

The above detail is accepted, no problem or doubt that Ball made time telling on the US railroads accurate (Just as companies like Cortebert did in Europe), but that is all the above detail proves. Heresay and old tales from railway employee's is no more proof either. Yes, the term "on the ball" may likely have started in the US on the railways after 1891.

But it was clearly used at least 30 years before that as proven by the text written in 1864 by William Kingston. The only argument is whether it was first used in relation to ball sports or in relation to the Grenwich timing ball. The Grenwich tour guides and marine historians tell exactly the same tales as the US railway guys do. Thing is the Grenwich folk have 60 years precedence to the US railway guys so the only question is whether in the 30 years or so before 1864 the chaps on boats started using the phrase? Common sense would suggest they did but I guess unless someone finds written prooof that they did then we'll never know. What we do know though is that the phrase was in use well before 1891 when it could have started to be used on the US railways.

[Welshwatchman]

Just agree with Greg, otherwise it's a 100 page thread we'll be having.

[TheBluePrince]

Lol, i getcha. My point is proven 100% so i won't have any more to say on the matter

[Mosco]

Originally Posted by TheBluePrince

Lol, i getcha. My point is proven 100% so i won't have any more to say on the matter

As long as you sleep well at night, sweetheart

However, I am not convinced - all we have to go on is your word. Thus far, no one supported your theory. You claim all these sources, yet I have seen no tangible proof. So is your 100% more like 10%? Methinks so

[TheBluePrince]

Lols...OK, i'll keep on playing

How is an actual published book not a source? That's the source for the sport theory, from 1864, 27 years before the earliest possible date that the phrase could have been used in relation to Ball railway clocks.

And the theory for the time ball is exactly the same as the one for the Ball clocks. People seeing/using them and coming up with the phrase. If you believe through heresay and gossip spread down through the ages that railway people started using the phrase after the Ball clocks were introduced then you thereby must also believe that the same happened with the timing ball. Because it's exactly the same situation. If you don't believe that people came up with the phrase after seeing and using the timing ball then logically you cannot believe the story about the Ball railway clocks either. It's exactly the same. Except the timing ball started 60 years earlier.

The only question is whether the phrase was in use in relation to the timing ball before it was in relation to ball sports. Even without proof (which there actually is, published in 1864) the balance of probability is massively in favour of the ball sports or timing ball theories.