Rolex Tudors all fakes?

[nowzen]

I am sometimes amused by the vehemence that some posters exhibit in denying the relationship between Rolex and Tudor. Maybe it’s a cultural thing – in the US Tudor is not sold while in other countries like Canada where I grew up, every Rolex AD prominently and equally displays the Tudor logo on the storefront.

I have particularly noted some labelling all Rolex/Tudor branded watches are fakes… i.e: if Tudor and Rolex appear on the same dial – “it must be a fake”… and therefore all the examples of vintage Rolex with Rolex/Tudor branding out there must be fakes or at least redone dials.

I wonder what Rolex and Tudor say about this? The Tudor official website (www.tudorwatches.com) is quite clear: “A few rare models associated the name TUDOR with Rolex, corresponding to the fact that Rolex originally guaranteed the technical and aesthetic quality of TUDOR, which the brand later went on to develop autonomously.” (BTW, the deniers will probably say you can’t believe a Tudor website, but I would like to point out Tudor is a Rolex company and the website and all 180 worldwide Tudor websites are published and administered by Rolex at [email protected])

Further, if Rolex Tudor watches never existed, why would a 1947 Rolex & Tudor catalogue from Rolex Watch Co. of Canada display 23 models of co-branded watches, both Rolex/Tudor and Tudor/Rolex? (see below)

Also, I notice the contention that Rolex watch could not have a Tudor branding as the Tudor brand was not launched by Wilsdorf until 1946 and no Tudor would therefore be older than that. In fact the Tudor name was first registered by a Geneva watch company in 1906 (before Rolex, and some say by a friend of Wilsdorf). Another friend acquired the rights in 1926 and they were transferred to Wilsdorf in 1936. Rolex made and sold Tudor branded watches in the 20’s and 30’s (see a 1935 Tudor below, again per the Tudor website).
So, does anybody have anything from the Rolex company which refutes their published statements and advertising that confirm the existence of co-branded watches?... I would love to see it.

[Dan Pierce]

I'm not sure anyone on TRF has disputed what you've stated.
There are many watches w/ both Rolex and Tudor on the dial that are attempted to be sold as original. Except for a few very rare cases, as you've stated, they are fake.
Seems we're all on the same page.
dP

[padi56]

Never disputed the existence to dual brand Rolex Tudor watches in-fact owned two one gold the other SS from the early 1940s.Now the gold one had the Tudor name plus around the sub seconds the Rolex watch company sold them both long ago a big mistake on my part.

[Warnsboy]

Originally Posted by padi56

Never disputed the existence to dual brand Rolex Tudor watches in-fact owned two one gold the other SS from the early 1940s.Now the gold one had the Tudor name plus around the sub seconds the Rolex watch company sold them both long ago a big mistake on my part.

X2 Padi, that is a beautiful watch!

[nowzen]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I'm not sure anyone on TRF has disputed what you've stated.
There are many watches w/ both Rolex and Tudor on the dial that are attempted to be sold as original. Except for a few very rare cases, as you've stated, they are fake.
Seems we're all on the same page.
dP

Well it would be nice if we are all the same page, but some of us seem to want to dismiss Rolex History from 1920 to about 1948. If you look at past threads under Rolex/Tudor dials, you will see many threads wherein it is assumed that if it says ‘Rolex Tudor’ on the dial, it must be a fake.

ie from TRF’ers including respected experts:

The watch dial indicates it is a Rolex brand watch, Tudor model. It is not, never will be because Rolex never made a model called Tudor.

I think even on a vintage Rolex and Tudor should not be on the same dial

My sources indicate that Wilsdorf established the Tudor line in 1946. (this in reference to a 30's Tudor)

“What is true is that there isn't a Rolex model called a Tudor, unlike a GMT, Datejust, Submariner etc. The Tudor dials are redialed to include Rolex to infer it is a Rolex watch, when it is in fact a Tudor watch manufactured by Rolex.”

“...HOWEVER, the very first Tudor was not produced until 1945. there are several ref's to support this in print. Please keep this in mind.”

“...Rolex NEVER produced a TUDOR watch DIAL with the Rolex Crown or the word Rolex on it.

“...TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT… use of the word Rolex on the Tudor dial.

AND from a letter to eBay:

I, as well as others, have reported to ebay, several counterfeit Rolex
watches that have been redialed as 'Rolex Tudor' and continually end up
being sold on ebay. There is no such watch and never has been. Rolex,
who produced the Tudor brand of watches, never placed their name on the dial of a Tudor watch..

These comments are in contradiction to both what Rolex and Tudor says about this. Even the president of Rolex said “"We have quite a large market share with Tudor in Hong Kong & China, even though the brand exists since 1926, we had never really put 100% effort behind it to promote the brand in Europe & the USA.” Given that the Rolex subsidiary and the Tudor Watch company was not formed until 1946, therefore would not a Rolex watch with “Tudor” on it from the 20’s, 30's and mid-40’s not in fact be a Rolex Tudor?

In the ‘watchout’ section, vintages watches being sold as Rolex Tudor are quickly relegated to the trash heap, not based on any other evidence than the prima facie ‘evidence’ that they bear both brand names. According to one TDF’r

“A Rouder is used to define a Rolex/Tudor dialed watch and is a phrase we use here to define a counterfeit dialed Tudor watch that carries Rolex script on the dial along with the Tudor script. These dials are made in the secondary market and are done to enhance the value of Tudor and "imply" that it is a Rolex, thereby increasing the profits of the seller from the unwitting buyer.”

No mention is made of the validity of some Rolex Tudor watches.

See the ladies watch below sent to the trash heap, soley due cobranding even though there are many similar cobranded models in the Rolex catalogue.

Even reputable member’s watches, such as Padi’s Rolex Tudor - he pictured it above and he is too nice to mention that it was accused of being a redial... the evidence (again) - it had both names on it!

I’m afraid it is clear that some member’s enthusiasm to protect the Rolex name has extended to ignoring over 2 decades of its history and Rolex’s propensity for many variations and sometimes creative experiments in branding.

[rockyn]

Well put

[padi56]

Originally Posted by nowzen

Well it would be nice if we are all the same page, but some of us seem to want to dismiss Rolex History from 1920 to about 1948. If you look at past threads under Rolex/Tudor dials, you will see many threads wherein it is assumed that if it says ‘Rolex Tudor’ on the dial, it must be a fake.

ie from TRF’ers including respected experts:













AND from a letter to eBay:



These comments are in contradiction to both what Rolex and Tudor says about this. Even the president of Rolex said “"We have quite a large market share with Tudor in Hong Kong & China, even though the brand exists since 1926, we had never really put 100% effort behind it to promote the brand in Europe & the USA.” Given that the Rolex subsidiary and the Tudor Watch company was not formed until 1946, therefore would not a Rolex watch with “Tudor” on it from the 20’s, 30's and mid-40’s not in fact be a Rolex Tudor?

In the ‘watchout’ section, vintages watches being sold as Rolex Tudor are quickly relegated to the trash heap, not based on any other evidence than the prima facie ‘evidence’ that they bear both brand names. According to one TDF’r

No mention is made of the validity of some Rolex Tudor watches.

See the ladies watch below sent to the trash heap, soley due cobranding even though there are many similar cobranded models in the Rolex catalogue.

Even reputable member’s watches, such as Padi’s Rolex Tudor - he pictured it above and he is too nice to mention that it was accused of being a redial... the evidence (again) - it had both names on it!

I’m afraid it is clear that some member’s enthusiasm to protect the Rolex name has extended to ignoring over 2 decades of its history and Rolex’s propensity for many variations and sometimes creative experiments in branding.

Yes have to agree yes it was quoted to be a redial by quite a few less knowledgeable in real history of Rolex and Tudor. But I just took it with a pinch of salt just like the many Rolex myths on the Internet today.And that watch above is very similar to the gold one I had with the Rolex watch company around the sub seconds.

[vukotab]

Well, first of all, we should define what we consider to be a "fake".
I had one of the "Rouders" some three years ago, at the time I didn`t know anything about Tudors (except that they`re Rolex`s lower market brand), so I thought that is quite normal to see both logos on the dial.
On TRF I discovered that it`s impossible, and went to my AD. He politely opened the case in front of me, and we saw - genuine Tudor signed ETA 2671, correct for that model, and also correct serial numbers etc.
So, it seemed that only thing that wasn`t real is that goddamn dial!
It bugged me so much that I traded damn thing, but I still cannot call it a "fake".
For me, fake watches are those produced in China, Hong Kong...and about those with real cases, real movements and crowns...well, maybe Frankenwatches, but not fakes.
Anyway, I wouldn`t buy Rouder ever again, Tudors are great watches with beautiful dials and history of it`s own, and it`s ridiculous making Rolex of it, when it`s not supposed to be.

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by padi56

Yes have to agree yes it was quoted to be a redial by quite a few less knowledgeable in real history of Rolex and Tudor. But I just took it with a pinch of salt just like the many Rolex myths on the Internet today.

Quite right, Padi. I scanned all these images from my 1949 Rolex/Tudor catalogue and they clearly show both names on the dials of several models:

http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...=tudor+catalog

http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...=tudor+catalog

No argument from me about co-branded dials, Rolex says they were made.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Alcan

Quite right, Padi. I scanned all these images from my 1949 Rolex/Tudor catalogue and they clearly show both names on the dials of several models:

http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...=tudor+catalog

http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...=tudor+catalog

No argument from me about co-branded dials, Rolex says they were made.

Well that is a fact Al yes they were made,and even in the early days of Rolex only about 1 in 5 had the Rolex name on the dial.Most were left blank for the varies retailers to put there own names on the dials.Sometimes all you had on the case back was a simple paper sticker Rolex or RWC.But agree today there are many 1960s and upward Tudors, that have that the word Rolex added to the dials.

[nowzen]

Originally Posted by vukotab

For me, fake watches are those produced in China, Hong Kong...and about those with real cases, real movements and crowns...well, maybe Frankenwatches, but not fakes.
Anyway, I wouldn`t buy Rouder ever again, Tudors are great watches with beautiful dials and history of it`s own, and it`s ridiculous making Rolex of it, when it`s not supposed to be.

Sorry to hear about your experience and yes there are a lot of redialed tudors around. The key point I'm making is that does not mean that Rolex did not make Rolex Tudor branded watches and vintage watches should not be dismissed as fakes simply because it has co-branding. Also there were clearly Tudors marketed with Tudor Rolex branding.

it is unfortunate that Rolex is not a more open company in releasing its production history, advertising etc.

[Rodmo]

Originally Posted by nowzen

The key point I'm making is that does not mean that Rolex did not make Rolex Tudor branded watches and vintage watches should not be dismissed as fakes simply because it has co-branding. Also there were clearly Tudors marketed with Tudor Rolex branding.

Very nicely researched.......thank you.

[Jason71]

Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread. It was a very interesting read, and I learned something new.

[springer]

Padi, here is a pic of a vintage Tudor, very much like yours, but notice the difference in the dials.

Now if you look at Padi's watch, and then the one I attached here, the dials are virtually identically, except one is missing the rose and is branded Rolex. These are interesting to compare. I've got an idea why they are different dials. Maybe they are from two different markets, or one is a redial. Although far from being an expert on Tudor watches, I do have some expertise in other areas.

Regarding some of the posts here, I don't know anyone on this forum that has said all the Tudor/Rolex branded watches are fake. 99.99% of the ones discussed on the forum here in the past are fake. Maybe Nowzen can point out a Rolex/Tudor dialed watch on this Forum that is genuine which another member inferred was fake.

So my question is, if Rolex routinely made these dual branded watches, where are they? 99.99% of the ones I've seen have fake dials. I've seen one or two maybe that appear genuine.

The 1947 Tudor catalog that was posted has been floating around the internet forever. It seems to be the only booklet that I've seen with these co-branded watches. I guess that maybe these were only available in Canada as I have never seen anything indicating they were available anywhere else. I sure would like to see more. The book would surely be printed long before the release of the new Tudor line of watches in 1946.

There are a few people here on TRF that infrequently frequent the forum and consider selling dual branded Rolex/Tudor watches their prerogative, as long as they tell the prospective buyer about the altered (a polite way of not saying fake) Rolex/Tudor branded dial. Personally, this is a travesty.

Regarding the original post in this thread, very well presented I must say. But, it remains a fact that the dual branded Rolex/Tudor dialed watch in the Hess Fine Auction is fitted with a fake dial in my opinion, and the opinion of others. These co-branded dials are done to enhance the value of the watch. It's also nice to shop around for a sympathetic ear though, one is bound to find one somewhere.

Lastly, Nowzen wrote, "I am sometimes amused by the vehemence that some posters exhibit in denying the relationship between Rolex and Tudor." I've been on this forum a while now and have never seen anything posted like you wrote. If that were the case, I'm sure the reference was made to the current breed of Rolex/Tudor dials that was the topic of the discussion where you read the post. The fact is, and remains, that you shouldn't confuse the ones that acknowledge the fake Rolex/Tudor dials with those that have ulterior motives in selling the Tudors wearing fake dials - not unlike those watches wearing fake Rolex dials on Submariners or GMT's. Frankly, I could care less if someone is selling fake dialed Tudors or Rolexes, whether divulged or not, the problem is, eventually, some poor buyer that doesn't know the difference is going to get stuck with it. It is simply a matter of integrity - either you have it, or you don't.

If the game is rigged, you can't lose if you don't play!

[springer]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I'm not sure anyone on TRF has disputed what you've stated.
There are many watches w/ both Rolex and Tudor on the dial that are attempted to be sold as original. Except for a few very rare cases, as you've stated, they are fake.
Seems we're all on the same page.
dP

X2 Dan. At least 99% of us are on the same page.

[springer]

Originally Posted by nowzen

Sorry to hear about your experience and yes there are a lot of redialed tudors around. The key point I'm making is that does not mean that Rolex did not make Rolex Tudor branded watches and vintage watches should not be dismissed as fakes simply because it has co-branding. Also there were clearly Tudors marketed with Tudor Rolex branding.

it is unfortunate that Rolex is not a more open company in releasing its production history, advertising etc.

Help us out here Nowzen. Would you post some photos of genuine, post 1946 Rolex/Tudor dialed watches please. I'd love to see some as they are pretty scarce here in the USA.

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by springer

Padi, here is a pic of a vintage Tudor, very much like yours, but notice the difference in the dials.

John, you have just posted an image of my late 1940's Tudor, no doubt copied by you from this website. FYI, here's the back side of the same watch with the dedication inscription from the Schneider family. Please note the date, 1951.

Originally Posted by springer

The 1947 Tudor catalog that was posted has been floating around the internet forever. It seems to be the only booklet that I've seen with these co-branded watches. I guess that maybe these were only available in Canada as I have never seen anything indicating they were available anywhere else. I sure would like to see more. The book would surely be printed long before the release of the new Tudor line of watches in 1946.

Not necessarily. My watchmaker came up with a carton of them from the watchmaker he apprenticed with back in the day. Althought the catalogs don't have a printing date on them, the carton which they were packed in has a shipping stamp dated July 6, 1949, for rail transport from Toronto to Hamilton. If you are suggesting that these are counterfeit catalogues, my watchmaker is part of an international scam ring, and the information in them is invalid, as your tone suggests, then shame on you. I can appreciate that you have to save face and protect your reputation, but this is really going too far John.

Originally Posted by springer

By the way, the pics that Alcan posted are not coming up so maybe someone can fix it so they can be viewed.

How do they show up now?










I've always held you in great respect, please don't diminish that with pig-headedness.

[Andad]

I have an old 1948? Tudor with Rolex on the dial.

Is this correct?

[springer]

If you are suggesting that these are counterfeit catalogues, my watchmaker is part of an international scam ring, and the information in them is invalid, as your tone suggests, then shame on you. I can appreciate that you have to save face and protect your reputation, but this is really going too far John. ... I've always held you in great respect, please don't diminish that with pig-headedness.

Quite the contrary Al, quite the contrary. You insinuated way, way too much. I've seen that same catalog on ebay before. And, as you might suspect, as well as others that know me, if I thought the booklet was fake, I surely would have said so. Sorry if you are offended! My post really never came close to what you are insinuating - in fact I acknowledged this - here it is again:

The 1947 Tudor catalog that was posted has been floating around the internet forever. It seems to be the only booklet that I've seen with these co-branded watches. I guess that maybe these were only available in Canada as I have never seen anything indicating they were available anywhere else. I sure would like to see more. The book would surely be printed long before the release of the new Tudor line of watches in 1946.

As far as your pics go, my post was edited after I found your pics. When you go to the first set of pics, they come up photo bucket with no pics.

Lastly, I really can't recall where the Tudor pic came from I posted in my first response, but it is a nice watch, congratulations. It probably came up in one of these Tudor threads posted here before.

So, thanks for all the kind words Alcan. I didn't know I had a reputation, or one to protect! You sir, are a real gentleman and have a way with words.

[springer]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I have an old 1948? Tudor with Rolex on the dial.

Is this correct?

The dial is not genuine, sorry. Can't speak for the rest of the watch.

[tudorman8276]

...even in your FACTORY photos there is one thing missing-a Rolex crown on a Tudor DIAL.

...mmmmmmmm..........wonder why???????

...Eddie...with all due respect, I earnestly believe your watch is a re-dial with the Crown added.

[Alcan]

Originally Posted by springer

Thanks for all the kind words anyway Al. I didn't know I had a reputation, or one to protect! You sir, are a real gentleman and have a way with words.

My apologies if I sounded harsh John, no offence meant. I have always thought of you as one of this site's most knowledgeable members.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Alcan

My apologies if I sounded harsh John, no offence meant. I have always thought of you as one of this site's most knowledgeable members.

Thanks Al. No problem here. Stay warm up there, the old man will be there before you know it! One thing I never missed after leaving Iowa was those cold, blistering winters.

[nowzen]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I have an old 1948? Tudor with Rolex on the dial.

Is this correct?

Hi: Nice watch! I think Springer et al are probably correct in his previous posts in which he identifies Rolex Tudors with a crown as suspect as modified dials. You might very well have a Rolex Tudor co-branded watch, but i think the crown probably would have been added later.

[nowzen]

Regarding some of the posts here, I don't know anyone on this forum that has said all the Tudor/Rolex branded watches are fake. 99.99% of the ones discussed on the forum here in the past are fake. Maybe Nowzen can point out a Rolex/Tudor dialed watch on this Forum that is genuine which another member inferred was fake.

Springer, in spite or the many quotes I've submitted where posters say things like: "Rolex NEVER produced a TUDOR watch DIAL with... the word Rolex on it.", I will note your correction that of the cobranded watches discussed in the past .01% are not fake. Personally, I can’t point to any Rolex /Tudor co-branded watch and identify it as a fake (or not)… I don’t claim that expertise. Especially, since Rolex does not open any history on the matter, it is hard to categorically declare this or that watch as a fake or ‘redial’. The issue I have raised is that any ‘expert’ should not dismiss a vintage co-branded watch, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS CO-BRANDED when the evidence substantiates their being cobranded watches. There are certainly examples on this forum where vintage watches have been summarily dismissed as ‘fakes’ or ‘redials’ based solely on the fact that bore the names Rolex and Tudor. No other reason was given. An example would be that ladies watch pictured above.

So my question is, if Rolex routinely made these dual branded watches, where are they? 99.99% of the ones I've seen have fake dials. I've seen one or two maybe that appear genuine..

Well they're all over the internet, but you have decided they are 99.99% fakes! I would suspect that the very fact they are co-branded would make them a rare collector's item. I certainly would like to know more about how you distinguish the 'one or two maybe appear genuine' from those you regard as fake.

The 1947 Tudor catalog that was posted has been floating around the internet forever. It seems to be the only booklet that I've seen with these co-branded watches. I guess that maybe these were only available in Canada as I have never seen anything indicating they were available anywhere else. I sure would like to see more. The book would surely be printed long before the release of the new Tudor line of watches in 1946.

It is quite possible that the watches in this catalogue were only available in Canada… by the Rolex Watch Co. of Canada. As far as I know it is a recognized division of Rolex S.A. and therefore its watches were still justifiably called a Rolex. Personally, I believe the finder's story to be credible. I am also unclear why you would say the catalogue “would surely be printed long before the release of the new Tudor line of watches in 1946.” Judging by how the Rolex and Tudor logos were presented on the covers, I would say it was clearly printed after 1946 when Wilsdorf established it as a separate brand. You once described the Tudor brand as a 'marketing ploy' and of course that is exactly true and Rolex probably wanted to initially support Tudor's credibility in the first years by clearly associating it with Rolex - hence the initial co-branding.

There are a few people here on TRF that infrequently frequent the forum and consider selling dual branded Rolex/Tudor watches their prerogative, as long as they tell the prospective buyer about the altered (a polite way of not saying fake) Rolex/Tudor branded dial. Personally, this is a travesty.

This statement seems to suggest that you assume, anyone offering a Rolex/Tudor branded watch, must be offering a fake? Which might further explain their scarcity on this forum.

Regarding the original post in this thread, very well presented I must say. But, it remains a fact that the dual branded Rolex/Tudor dialed watch in the Hess Fine Auction is fitted with a fake dial in my opinion, and the opinion of others. These co-branded dials are done to enhance the value of the watch. It's also nice to shop around for a sympathetic ear though, one is bound to find one somewhere.

I cannot judge Mr. Hess’s watch to be redialed or not. Mr. Hess himself says he thinks the dial was altered. there's no doubt there are redialed watches and I also appreciate your right to offer an opinion on the subject. However, again, I would be interested to know of any other reason why this watch would be judged to be a redial other than the fact is says Rolex Tudor?

Lastly, Nowzen wrote, "I am sometimes amused by the vehemence that some posters exhibit in denying the relationship between Rolex and Tudor." I've been on this forum a while now and have never seen anything posted like you wrote. If that were the case, I'm sure the reference was made to the current breed of Rolex/Tudor dials that was the topic of the discussion where you read the post. The fact is, and remains, that you shouldn't confuse the ones that acknowledge the fake Rolex/Tudor dials with those that have ulterior motives in selling the Tudors wearing fake dials - not unlike those watches wearing fake Rolex dials on Submariners or GMT's. Frankly, I could care less if someone is selling fake dialed Tudors or Rolexes, whether divulged or not, the problem is, eventually, some poor buyer that doesn't know the difference is going to get stuck with it. It is simply a matter of integrity - either you have it, or you don't.

I tend to believe Rolex’s President when he says Rolex has sold Tudor labelled watches since 1926. I believe the Tudor official website when it says it sold co-branded watches. I believe the catalogue from the Rolex Watch Co of Canada that it offered co-branded watches. It is also clear that Wildsdorf was quite willing to experiment with a lot of different treatments in the branding of his watches. And, frankly, as far as integrity goes, I would want to have some hard evidence in hand before I would label another person’s a watch a fake – simply because it was co-branded. The evidence of there being a “co-branded = fake” opinion on this forum is self evident by searching threads on the subject for the last 3 years. Springer, I regard you as an expert and senior advisor (no reflection of age) on this forum and I greatly respect your opinion and your right to it. But the history is clear here, that anyone offering a co-branded watch on this forum (real or not) must be glutton for punishment.

[jeff hess]

A dial that has been allegedly redone to say Rolex Tudor is not a fake.

It is simply a redone dial. Is it repainted properly? Who knows?

Who is to say which watch with a repainted dial did not say Rolex Tudor to begin with. Both names DID appear on the same watch.

SO how does one truly know?

Vintage watches are often fitted with parts from other watches to keep them running. Neither this nor repainting a dial makes them "fake". It may make them "not completely original" but it does NOT make them fake.

Disclosure is the key. If a vintage watch has been restored using parts from another watch it should be disclosed. Again, not fake,just not 100 percent original.

(Do we throw in the trash all of the old bubblebacks that have a non Rolex crown, since Rolex quit making bubbleback crowns 15 years ago?)

Jeff

[padi56]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

A dial that has been allegedly redone to say Rolex Tudor is not a fake.

It is simply a redone dial. Is it repainted properly? Who knows?

Who is to say which watch with a repainted dial did not say Rolex Tudor to begin with. Both names DID appear on the same watch.

SO how does one truly know?

Vintage watches are often fitted with parts from other watches to keep them running. Neither this nor repainting a dial makes them "fake". It may make them "not completely original" but it does NOT make them fake.

Disclosure is the key. If a vintage watch has been restored using parts from another watch it should be disclosed. Again, not fake,just not 100 percent original.

(Do we throw in the trash all of the old bubblebacks that have a non Rolex crown, since Rolex quit making bubbleback crowns 15 years ago?)

Jeff

Have to agree Jeff and today with Rolex refusing to service some vintage movements.The only option is have parts made or source generic now Rolex are supposed to be watchmakers.And would have thought they would have all the schematics for all there past movements so why cannot they make a part if needed.With the co-branded Tudors all my findings they were mainly UK market or Canada only.Lets not forget Canada was a market for Rolex watches for quite sometime before Rolex got into the USA market.

[jeff hess]

Padi,

WE have to remember that Rolex of Canada made some very odd and strange watches as they were (as Rolex of USA and Rolex De Argentina) for the most part, completely independent of Rolex SA.

Do you think Rolex ever made Sterling silver ladies watches with fake glass faux diamonds in the band?

yep. They made it in the early 1950's to commemorate the Queens Coronation.

Rolex of Canada made cheap Gold filled watches and all kinds of things. the Rolex Tudor moniker appeared often in Canada.

And even in America the Tudor style "Oyster Watch Company" watches were co-branded with the word "Rolex" on the dial with the Zell Brothers "Turtle Timer" series.

All Original
Genuine with Rolex replacement parts
Genuine with repainted dial.
Genuine with period bracelet (a description often used by Sothebys)
Genuine watch with incorrectly painted dial.

Lots of ways to describe things that have been restored to keep them running without erroneously calling the counterfeit or fake.

Those who put Rolex on a Tudor made by Rolex are stretching the truth. (after all, many Tudors say ROLEX on the back of the case) and this info should be disclosed as what it is. But it does not make the watch counterfeit.

Jeff

[padi56]

Yes I know about the Turtle Timer without doubt IMHO it was Zell that made that part of the contract to have that on dial instead of oyster in the beginning.But old Hans was glad to oblige so he could get a foothold very very near to the huge USA market.Yes I agree about the case backs plus they have the Rolex crown emblem, and many have Rolex plus the Rolex crown on inside of the clasps.IMHO there is a bit of snobbery with the Tudor/Rolex by many, some think its a lesser brand and dont deserve the Rolex crown.And agree about the part of stretching the truth a bit, Rolex makes Tudor the main difference just the movement and a few fonts pre the 1990s.

[Bunny4jeff]

Originally Posted by nowzen

I am sometimes amused by the vehemence that some posters exhibit in denying the relationship between Rolex and Tudor. Maybe it’s a cultural thing – in the US Tudor is not sold while in other countries like Canada where I grew up, every Rolex AD prominently and equally displays the Tudor logo on the storefront.

I have particularly noted some labelling all Rolex/Tudor branded watches are fakes… i.e: if Tudor and Rolex appear on the same dial – “it must be a fake”… and therefore all the examples of vintage Rolex with Rolex/Tudor branding out there must be fakes or at least redone dials.

I wonder what Rolex and Tudor say about this? The Tudor official website (www.tudorwatches.com) is quite clear: “A few rare models associated the name TUDOR with Rolex, corresponding to the fact that Rolex originally guaranteed the technical and aesthetic quality of TUDOR, which the brand later went on to develop autonomously.” (BTW, the deniers will probably say you can’t believe a Tudor website, but I would like to point out Tudor is a Rolex company and the website and all 180 worldwide Tudor websites are published and administered by Rolex at [email protected])

Further, if Rolex Tudor watches never existed, why would a 1947 Rolex & Tudor catalogue from Rolex Watch Co. of Canada display 23 models of co-branded watches, both Rolex/Tudor and Tudor/Rolex? (see below)

Also, I notice the contention that Rolex watch could not have a Tudor branding as the Tudor brand was not launched by Wilsdorf until 1946 and no Tudor would therefore be older than that. In fact the Tudor name was first registered by a Geneva watch company in 1906 (before Rolex, and some say by a friend of Wilsdorf). Another friend acquired the rights in 1926 and they were transferred to Wilsdorf in 1936. Rolex made and sold Tudor branded watches in the 20’s and 30’s (see a 1935 Tudor below, again per the Tudor website).
So, does anybody have anything from the Rolex company which refutes their published statements and advertising that confirm the existence of co-branded watches?... I would love to see it.

Useful information, thanks, but hmmmm, not so sure if the guy who painted the logo on this watch was tipsy or not...