The allure of RED writing, is it the real deal?

[Frogman4me]

Well guys clearly I am losing my mind but you read correctly. I am questioning the allure of the red writing, in particular the 1665 DRSD (only MKIII or IV models) and you can mention the 1680 Red as well.

As many of you know I have been researching, saving, reading, saving, and saving for a 1665 DRSD pretty much since I joined this forum. Did I mention saving? lol. The first time I set eyes on a DRSD its was a wrap, I must have it and I do not care what it takes! Well over the past month or two I've prepared myself financially to buy one but I am having a lot of trouble finding the "right" one.

Well this leads me to my question in point. Is the allure of the red writing something that fades overtime? The reason I am saying this is that I believe when someone who begins to take interest in vintage Rolex they tend to fall in love with the "red" writing models first. Simply because, well they stand out and its clearly easy for a newcomer to understand why they are special. BOLD RED WRITING! like no other

Dare I say it, are the red writing models "grails" for all newbies and because all of us wanted it as a newbie the lust just grew inside of us for so long and thats why they sell like hot cakes! For me I love anything with Red accents so it was right up my alley to fall dead in love with it.

But take for example a nice 5512 Gilt 4 line chapter ring PCG. A newcomer would not even notice the gilt too quickly if at all. 4 lines? I never knew they had 2 lines. I don't see a difference in the ring thing? Ohhh it has different shaped crown guards, Im just staring at the dial. It looks like a regular sub for the most part. 30k? no thank you I would rather have a DRSD!

So my point is that newcomers including myself last year did not lust for this particular model in the beginning because when we saw it we didn't understand or notice the "special features" therefore did not build up such a "I have to have this model" hype/desire like the in your face Red writing models.

Do you collectors who already own reds and other beautiful vintage subs still have the same satisfaction with your DRSD or 1680 red? Would the 5512 mentioned above be a vintage piece a more experience collector would appreciate or go after? And lastly with your experience and years of collecting has it changed your view of the RED writing allure?

Sorry guys, clearly I am in a pickle, please know this is not to bash anyone or any red model, in fact take as a compliments because I am going crazy over it! Love to hear your opinions.

[HL65]

David- I think they all belong in a complete collection. They are all quite different and each bring different things to the party. Try to find a mint perfect complete 61' 4 line 5512 with CR. Not going to happen as there are none out there and I know of quite a few on this forum who have been searching for many months. With that said- try to find a mint perfect 1680 tropical red complete- best of luck. The DRSD is the easiest of those 3 to find but again in mint perfect condition also not the easiest to find although not nearly as hard to find as first two mentioned. Again- each different and each very collectible. I love all 3 and would not sell or trade any of them. I also can appreciate the beauty and rarity in each one. Stare at a mint gilt dial 5512 and it will captivate you quickly with it's allure! Again- the best suggestion I give to any true collector.: Figure out which watches you will want and always buy the very best example when it presents itself whichever reference that would be- from the best sellers or private collections. There are some great hunters out there that can track them down for you which is how I ended up with just about everyone of mine.

[Frogman4me]

Ken your always right, when I emailed you I was basically saying that I want both models eventually, But I've been saving for the DRSD no question. But based on the market and your advice here I should go after the best example that pops up. But for me if I pull on the 5512, the DRSD will have to wait a long while before I can go after it again. Will I be satisfied till then or should I just fill the big gaping hole I put in my heart for the DRSD? Ahhh!!!! What to do!

[HL65]

David- such a tough call. They are all so nice. As for Sub 5512- trying to hunt down an early 61' 2 line CR gilt PCG with COSC and rare butterfly rotor also next to impossible. There are so many variances in each reference which is why you have to put together your list and rank them in order of importance to you- one at a time. I would just not compromise quality and again find the very best examples you can find! Since I know how badly you want a DRSD - that is where your heart is so that should be first target!!

[Paracentesis]

Hi David,

Like you, for many years I had a hankering for a "red" something. I never really had the money, so I forgot about it. Then recently I got back into watch nerdery, and was directed by the good gentlemen of the forum to MW.

So I picked up a mint 1971 Red 1680. At the moment, it's my favourite watch, but I've only had it three weeks. I even enjoy watching the arthritic-looking ticking of the seconds hand (I'm used to smoother 4Hz movements). It's not perfect - it's ft first, and it's got a service replacement bezel ring, and no papers. But it's a start. And it might even be a finish, too.

Good luck.

[Frogman4me]

Damn it Ken you are wise and your guidance never disappoints, what do I owe you for counseling fees?

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by Paracentesis

Hi David,

Like you, for many years I had a hankering for a "red" something. I never really had the money, so I forgot about it. Then recently I got back into watch nerdery, and was directed by the good gentlemen of the forum to MW.

So I picked up a mint 1971 Red 1680. At the moment, it's my favourite watch, but I've only had it three weeks. I even enjoy watching the arthritic-looking ticking of the seconds hand (I'm used to smoother 4Hz movements). It's not perfect - it's ft first, and it's got a service replacement bezel ring, and no papers. But it's a start. And it might even be a finish, too.

Good luck.

James I've seen your 1680 and it's a beauty! Stop posting it because you are a bad influence..lol, no but thanks for your input my friend.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

Damn it Ken you are wise and your guidance never disappoints, what do I owe you for counseling fees?

That's what friends are for and what makes TRF such a great place!

[Clay]

If I may chime in......

I think you have to ask yourself a big question......

Are you going to be a "collector" or just an enthusiast?????

In the past I have owned 5512's 5513's, 1680's (both red and white), 1665's, 16660, 16800's, GMT's, etc etc.......

They were ALL FABULOUS and I would have liked to have kept them all...

But in the end I realized that that would never happen......I just don't have the money to be a real "Collector" the way I would like to be....

So I decided on a different path.......As you well know I ended up with two watches that I LOVE and that suit my needs and budget......The rest I just dream about....

But the desision to own what I own didn't happen over night......It was the result of buying, owning, wearing and then selling (and sometimes buying agiain ) many different vintage pieces (and some modern) until I found what it is I truly loved and what made me happy and what "worked" for my life style and how and where I like to wear my watches.

I guess my point is this....If money isn't an issue, then it's a no brainer....

But if you're like me, and you buy "wisely", you can always resell and recoup your investment.....And often times make a few bob in the process...

This is part of what it takes to find out what you really like and what works for you.....

It can also be a fun ride and should be part of what this hobby is all about......

Sorry to go on and on.....I hope this helps a bit.....

[Paracentesis]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

James I've seen your 1680 and it's a beauty! Stop posting it because you are a bad influence..lol, no but thanks for your input my friend.

David, I think whatever you get, follow Ken's advice and go for the best condition you can find. Looking forward to seeing pics of your DRSD!

[lhanddds]

Originally Posted by Clay

If I may chime in......

I think you have to ask yourself a big question......

Are you going to be a "collector" or just an enthusiast?????

In the past I have owned 5512's 5513's, 1680's (both red and white), 1665's, 16660, 16800's, GMT's, etc etc.......

They were ALL FABULOUS and I would have liked to have kept them all...

But in the end I realized that that would never happen......I just don't have the money to be a real "Collector" the way I would like to be....

So I decided on a different path.......As you well know I ended up with two watches that I LOVE and that suit my needs and budget......The rest I just dream about....

But the desision to own what I own didn't happen over night......It was the result of buying, owning, wearing and then selling (and sometimes buying agiain ) many different vintage pieces (and some modern) until I found what it is I truly loved and what made me happy and what "worked" for my life style and how and where I like to wear my watches.

I guess my point is this....If money isn't an issue, then it's a no brainer....

But if you're like me, and you buy "wisely", you can always resell and recoup your investment.....And often times make a few bob in the process...

This is part of what it takes to find out what you really like and what works for you.....

It can also be a fun ride and should be part of what this hobby is all about......

Sorry to go on and on.....I hope this helps a bit.....

Outstanding advice!!!!!! I think if the DRSD really tugs at your heart, you will never be satisfied until you've had one. My practicality will not allow me to pay twice as much for a red 1680 as I did for my white, but I love to look at them. Go get your favorite, you simply will not know for a long while if you made the right choice. Then you can sell if you no longer like it. Good luck

[BB83]

Hi David, I'm starting to think about a DRSD myself and have loved to follow your passion for them on here! As well as Clay's love of his beautiful Great White!

There's a lot here that i've thought about myself. The collector vs. enthusiast point is a good one to consider, as is (of course) finances and how many pieces you want (need!)

What I've concluded about myself is that I would like to collect, not just be an enthusiast, so rarity/collectability matters to me. But I have financial constraints, so there are lines I will have to draw in terms of how far down the "specialness" road I can go.

First, I will only buy a piece in the very best condition I can find -- NOS. Will I later scratch it up wearing it? Yes! But that doesn't bother me anymore -- I just want it to be wonderful when it comes to me, and even with regular wear, you're talking only scratches and minor dings (hopefully) -- the dial (most important) should remain perfect, and the case/lugs will never be polished on my watch (second most important).

Second, I will always pay for a piece that comes with books and papers, because that's just important to me for collectability. Buying from trusted sources means I don't need b&p to verify authenticity -- but as Mark Lerman says in his fantastic Red Subs post, it's really about rarity, as finding perfect examples with b&p is really hard to do.

Combining 1 & 2, I'm already paying top dollar for a particular model, so finances come into play in terms of what model that will be. Right now I have a perfect complete set 6265 Daytona, but a PN will have to wait because to get the one I want will cost a fortune. On the SD, I like the rarity/collector's desirability of the double red model, so I will pay for that when the time comes (rather than just going with white). But, it will probably be a Mark III or IV dial, as for me, the premium for a Mark I or II is too much. Same goes for almost all tropical variations for me -- like them, know they're rare, put for me not worth another however many more thousand for that feature. (The tropical Mark II Red Sub is the one I might make an exception for, because Red Subs aren't as pricey as some other pieces, so even the tropical Mark II within range - if you can find!)

I think it's all personal line-drawing based on collector or not (yes for me), number of pieces desired (I'm a quality over quantity guy, but still want several pieces!), finances, availability, etc. Anyway, that's my stream of consciousness for the morning. Thanks for starting the thread -- it's really interesting!

[Clay]

Also, I agree with Ken here....What ever you end up with, get the very best example that you can find......

This may take a while, but the end result will be worth it....

[Racer X]

Hey David, stay away from my 5512 PCG! They're already hard to find as it is and I don't need any more competition! Haha

Seriously though, at the risk of sounding corny, you've got to go with what moves you. If that's the DRSD (and it clearly is!) go for that one. If the magic fades for some reason, you've got a valuable asset that you can sell/trade so that you can get what ever you want in the future. I'm considering options too, but I think I'm much more on the fence than you. If I had such a clear front runner in mind like you do, I would grab it and not look back.

To answer your original question, my red sub still tugs at my heart strings. And it's not just the red writing that does it. In fact, I really can't see the red writing all that well in day-to-day use because of the black background. That said, I know it's there, I know the rarity and uniqueness associated with it, and that gets me. Of course, a deep patina doesn't hurt either!

[PhilM]

Buy what you like, if you opt for DRSD and it gives you that buzz and of course makes you smile then it's a done deal. However over time people change, so if you buy right then you can always flip it at a latter date and buy something else.

The other thing is patience, just keep looking and you'll eventually find the one. As over the last 10+ years I've seen people quickly get into watches and if they've got deep enough pockets they just go out and buy all the top references and then that's it, what next, part of the fun is hunting them down and doing the research.

Besides, sometimes the chase is more fun than actually owning the blasted watch...... a bit like girls

[conrail]

Originally Posted by PhilM

Besides, sometimes the chase is more fun than actually owning the blasted watch...... a bit like girls

Haha, well said! Right on.

[Frogman4me]

Ok guys, I am not even going to bother with quoting because everyone has given sound advice and great recommendations. Thank you. Clay you brought up an excellent point that others have elaborated on in this thread. Will I be a collector or an enthusiast? Obviously if I had the money I would get all collector pieces and be a collector, but this is not a reality for most of us.

While I think many of us want to be collectors deep down inside I believe many are concerned with the cost associated with owning collector type pieces. Now I would hate to associate a solid collection with money as I do believe one can have a wonderful and satisfying collection without selling their kidney but the reality is, and its a harsh one, that the rare models we often speak about are very expensive to own especially if you have a collectors mindset and require all the provenance and conditions tied with it.

For me, in the stage in my life that I am at right now, I try to walk the fine line of getting a piece that I can wear, all original, in great shape and if I can afford papers then that as well. But when faced with a situation like a full set 1680 Red MF vs non full set DRSD, it gets tricky.
I can probably go after a solid 1680 red meters first full set and probably have enough money left over to buy dinner. But would be willing to accept a solid 1665 MKIV DRSD without papers from reputable seller for a little more? The answer is Yes. Now does this thinking constitute a collectors mindset? In my mind I think a collector would rather have the 1680 red in its completion over the DRSD.

I think I am a new generation of the hybrid thinking..."Collecthusiast" lol

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

Ok guys, I am not even going to bother with quoting because everyone has given sound advice and great recommendations. Thank you. Clay you brought up an excellent point that others have elaborated on in this thread. Will I be a collector or an enthusiast? Obviously if I had the money I would get all collector pieces and be a collector, but this is not a reality for most of us.

While I think many of us want to be collectors deep down inside I believe many are concerned with the cost associated with owning collector type pieces. Now I would hate to associate a solid collection with money as I do believe one can have a wonderful collection without selling their kidney but the reality is, and its a harsh one, that the rare models we often speak about are very expensive to own especially if you have a collectors mindset and require all the provenance and conditions tied with it.

For me, in the stage in my life that I am at right now, I try to walk the fine line of getting a piece that I can wear, all original, in great shape and if I can afford papers then that as well. But when faced with a situation like a full set 1680 vs non full set DRSD.
Well I can probably go after a solid 1680 red meters first full set and probably have enough money left over to buy dinner. But I would be willing to accept a solid 1665 MKIV DRSD without papers from reputable seller for a little more. Does this thinking constitute a collectors mindset? In my mind I think a collector would rather have the 1680 red in its completion over the DRSD.

I think I am a new generation of the hybrid thinking...lol

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on the labels. Collector or enthusiast, you should buy what you want most. Simplistic, I know, but that's what it really comes down to. Yes, it would be nice to have a full set 1680 but you need to ask yourself if you would feel any disappointment when looking down on your wrist and not seeing a DRSD looking back at you. IMHO, you should go with the DRSD b/c that's what you've always wanted. If you can't get papers with it, so what? Are you more concerned about being a "serious collector," or about having a watch you love and enjoy?

[HL65]

Originally Posted by Clay

Also, I agree with Ken here....What ever you end up with, get the very best example that you can find......

This may take a while, but the end result will be worth it....

I agree with Clay here as well.

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan1965

I agree with Clay here as well.

I agree with Clay, agreeing with Ken...wait a minute who are we agreeing on originally

[BB83]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

Ok guys, I am not even going to bother with quoting because everyone has given sound advice and great recommendations. Thank you. Clay you brought up an excellent point that others have elaborated on in this thread. Will I be a collector or an enthusiast? Obviously if I had the money I would get all collector pieces and be a collector, but this is not a reality for most of us.

While I think many of us want to be collectors deep down inside I believe many are concerned with the cost associated with owning collector type pieces. Now I would hate to associate a solid collection with money as I do believe one can have a wonderful and satisfying collection without selling their kidney but the reality is, and its a harsh one, that the rare models we often speak about are very expensive to own especially if you have a collectors mindset and require all the provenance and conditions tied with it.

For me, in the stage in my life that I am at right now, I try to walk the fine line of getting a piece that I can wear, all original, in great shape and if I can afford papers then that as well. But when faced with a situation like a full set 1680 Red MF vs non full set DRSD, it gets tricky.
I can probably go after a solid 1680 red meters first full set and probably have enough money left over to buy dinner. But would be willing to accept a solid 1665 MKIV DRSD without papers from reputable seller for a little more? The answer is Yes. Now does this thinking constitute a collectors mindset? In my mind I think a collector would rather have the 1680 red in its completion over the DRSD.

I think I am a new generation of the hybrid thinking..."Collecthusiast" lol

I'm not sure the collector would go with the 1680 w b/p in all cases because the DRSD is more of a rare and collectible piece. And based on what I've read in your prior posts, if you don't want to wait and save up even longer for a DRSD with b/p, go for a great example DRSD from a trusted seller without! As everyone has said, it's the one you really want, and personally I agree with that choice between the two. Love the date without the cyclops! Anyway that's what I'd do--just my opinion!

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by Racer X

IMHO, you should go with the DRSD b/c that's what you've always wanted. If you can't get papers with it, so what? Are you more concerned about being a "serious collector," or about having a watch you love and enjoy?

Originally Posted by BB83

I'm not sure the collector would go with the 1680 w b/p in all cases because the DRSD is more of a rare and collectible piece. And based on what I've read in your prior posts, if you don't want to wait and save up even longer for a DRSD with b/p, go for a great example DRSD from a trusted seller without! As everyone has said, it's the one you really want, and personally I agree with that choice between the two. Love the date without the cyclops! Anyway that's what I'd do--just my opinion!

I guess I was just looking for a reason to get the DRSD later down the road but everyone is right, for me piece number 1 is the DRSD, thanks everyone for putting me back on track.

Now someone sell me theirs!!!

[BB83]

Originally Posted by Racer X

Hey David, stay away from my 5512 PCG! They're already hard to find as it is and I don't need any more competition! Haha

Speaking of 5512 Gilt CR w PCG -- can't resist posting mine! So I'm not in the race, Dave--one less collector-enthusiast to contend with!

[HL65]

Beautiful and unreal patina!!!! Stunning!!

[Clay]

One suggestion David.....I am not a box & papers guy......I rather have a pristine example then a lesser example with B&P.......
But I do know that the watch you buy today may very well be the watch you have to sell tomorrow.....
As corny as that may sound it's the truth......
And with all of the fake DRSD'd out there , I personally would be hard pressed to buy one without some sort of documentation.....
To my mind the best would be recent Rolex Service Papers.....
I know others might disagree, but to my way of thinking they are even more valuable then original B&P..........
And something like that makes the selling (Should you have to) of a DRSD much much easier.....
Just my own two cents....

[Clay]

And by the way...I agree with everyone who agrees with me.....

[Racer X]

Originally Posted by BB83

Speaking of 5512 Gilt CR w PCG -- can't resist posting mine! So I'm not in the race, Dave--one less collector-enthusiast to contend with!

Attachment 197528

That is good news. Even better news would be you want to sell that watch to me.

What a beautiful example! Now I really want one.

[Frogman4me]

Originally Posted by Clay

And by the way...I agree with everyone who agrees with me.....

hahahahah, great advice though Clay I am all over it

[phelix_da_kat]

This thread is brilliant!

I saved up for one of the last Zenith Daytona in pristine condition, full B&P - now my daily beater.

Started on my next grail quest - looking to stepping through to a 1680 before a DRSD. Will take a few years as I will have family on the way shortly - but will seek advice and a seller from TRF when the time comes..

Keep the great work up!

[BB83]

Thanks on the 5512!!

Dave--you won't be sorry when you get one!!