Looking for my first rolex

[Becker]

Hey guys,
I have enjoyed reading the posts. I am in the market for my first rolex. I have narrowed it down to either a seadweller or a non date submariner. I have tried them on, and the size and weight of the seadweller don't bother me. That being said, and since I am not a diver, is it worth about $1000 more for a date function and to be COSC certified?

Also, I went to the main Tourneau store in Manhatten, and when I mentioned a discount, they said they do not discount the rolexes. Do I have a better shot at a smaller authorized dealer. How much can expect to save on a SD or non date Sub? 10%?

Last thing. Do the colors of the face and markings fade after time? I have seen some older ones, and it seems as though the black face turns bluish and that the white markings turn beige. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

Sorry for the long post.

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Becker

Hey guys,
I have enjoyed reading the posts. I am in the market for my first rolex. I have narrowed it down to either a seadweller or a non date submariner. I have tried them on, and the size and weight of the seadweller don't bother me. That being said, and since I am not a diver, is it worth about $1000 more for a date function and to be COSC certified?

Also, I went to the main Tourneau store in Manhatten, and when I mentioned a discount, they said they do not discount the rolexes. Do I have a better shot at a smaller authorized dealer. How much can expect to save on a SD or non date Sub? 10%?

Last thing. Do the colors of the face and markings fade after time? I have seen some older ones, and it seems as though the black face turns bluish and that the white markings turn beige. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

Sorry for the long post.

Welcome to TRF, Becker.

There is a considerable difference between the two watches. The SD is much more of a professional watch with a built-in Helium valve, greater depth rating and a much better bracelet.

I mean, you're never going to ever need any of those extra features, but the date is useful. However, if date is not an issue, then the no-date Sub is an all time classic with a very symmetrical and aesthetically pleasing dial.

Don't worry about fading. If you sit out in the strong Tuscan Sun long enough, rest assured you are going to fade much before your dial does!!

Good luck in your final choice - try them both on and see which one smiles back at you - you will find the SD much thicker and sitting up high. Not recommended for small wrists.

Cheers - JJ

[scott22]

Originally Posted by Becker

Hey guys,
I have enjoyed reading the posts. I am in the market for my first rolex. I have narrowed it down to either a seadweller or a non date submariner. I have tried them on, and the size and weight of the seadweller don't bother me. That being said, and since I am not a diver, is it worth about $1000 more for a date function and to be COSC certified?

Also, I went to the main Tourneau store in Manhatten, and when I mentioned a discount, they said they do not discount the rolexes. Do I have a better shot at a smaller authorized dealer. How much can expect to save on a SD or non date Sub? 10%?

Last thing. Do the colors of the face and markings fade after time? I have seen some older ones, and it seems as though the black face turns bluish and that the white markings turn beige. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

Sorry for the long post.

If I'm correct, the retail price of the Seadweller is $5375, the Submariner Non-Date is $4525, and the black Submariner date is $5175. If you are not a diver I don't see the value of the Seadweller, unless you really like the look of not having the magnifying bubble. With the normal Submariner, you could dive pretty deep. So for me, the choice would come down to the date and non-date Submariners. The premium for the date function is $650. To me, that was worthwhile, but that is a chunk of change, and some people might prefer the cleaner look of the non-date. But you don't want to buy a Rolex and then regret for years to come that you didn't splurge a little extra to get the date function... In terms of the COSC certification, I think that's more marketing than anything, so that has never been a consideration in my purchases.

I have yet to find an authorized dealer that offers discounts on Rolexes (consistently, they have all said they can only sell Rolexes at list price), although from reading this board it's clear some people are able to get discounts. You have a better chance of getting a discount if you build a relationship with a smaller dealer, and offer to pay with cash, as they'll save the credit card transaction fee that way. Another way you can save money is to visit an authorized dealer out of state, and have the dealer ship the watch back to you -- by doing that, you can apparently avoid paying sales tax (which is not insignificant on an expensive item like a Rolex). But you don't get to walk out of the store wearing the Rolex, beaming from ear to ear.

It seems dealers are less likely to discount on the popular sports models, such as the Submariner. If you were buying a less popular or much more expensive model, I'm sure there would be room to negotiate.

I find it useful to refer to Alan Furman's site, which has a list of Rolex prices:

http://www.alanfurman.com/noframes/rolex1.html

Alan Furman is a grey market dealer. The site shows the list price and their grey market price. The best discount you could hope for from an authorized dealer would probably fall somewhere between list and the grey market price. By looking at the spread on Alan Furman's site, you can get an idea of the current demand for particular Rolex models. On the Submariner date, for example, Alan Furman's price is only $375 lower than the list price -- that's about a 7% discount. So you probably would be very lucky to get a 5% discount on that model from an AD. I think offering to pay cash would be your best chance, since credit card transaction fees can be several percent. Anecdotally, the people getting reasonable discounts on these forums often appear to be people who have bought several watches from a dealer, building a long-term relationship. Since this will be your first watch purchase, I don't think there's too much room to negotiate, but others may have different experiences.

In terms of fading, much older Rolexes have been known to fade. I would expect current models would be much less likely to fade over time. I'm not sure, but I would not be surprised if the sapphire crystal is treated to block UV rays, and the dyes are probably better these days too. It's not something I would worry about -- if it happens, it would probably only happen after a long time, and a lot of time in sunlight. (And hey, Subarminer owners spend most of their time underwater away from the sun, right? :) I know owners of older Rolex models often view the fading favorably. If ten years pass and the color fades a bit, you can probably have a Rolex Service Center replace the faded part. But I haven't heard of current Rolexes fading -- I guess only time will tell!

[SPACE-DWELLER]

First of all: WELCOME to the FINEST Rolex Forum of the world...Period!

Now to your questions:

I would go for the Sub (No date), since I believe that the Sub 14060M, as its reference number is, will be quite collectable in a few years. Rumours have it that the 14060M is soon to be upgraded to a COSC, too.

I like the 14060M since it is NOT a COSC (on paper!) and has some of the "old style" features like "Non SEL" (SEL = Solid End Links).

Concerning the discolouration of the hour markers (and hands): It is NO trick of the eye......
But: You won't see that on the "new" Rolex watches. By "new" I mean the Rolex watches that have SuperLuminova as luminous substance on hands and hour markers.

But on earlier Rolex watches, the radioactive Tritium was applied to hands and hour markers, and this Tritium tended to "age" during the years of use in terms of not only COLOUR, but it also had a radioactive decrease in terms of radiation power.

So many Rolex watches with Tritium do not longer "glow in the dark", but would then again show that *desired* yellowish patination

[rschroeter2124]

Welcome! I think you should buy from an AD who's willing to give you the 10% most are. It may be that their sale volume allows them to sell at full price, but others outside may be willing to give the 10% off. Rolex does have strict rules on what is acceptable for discount, and it seems 10% off is somewhat standard (i'm in Massachusetts) and everyone i've been to (albeit not many) offered 10% without even asking- they just say "that's x... on sale for 10% off". As for fading?? I doubt they'd be fading to the degree you describe. Were these pictures you were seeing, or in person? In photos (printed or on the web) colors are giong to look 'off'.

Good luck with the purchase, you're going to be very pleased either way.!!!

[Welshwatchman]

You can't go wrong with the 14060M.

It is a classic sports watch and is not going to depreciate a lot, especially if you can squeeze a bit of discount when purchasing.

[mike]

All three references will give you many years of good solid use.

I really think it's more which appeals to you. Certainly the SD carries the larger premium of the three, but it's also the more cultic of the trio. The SD presents a more utilitarian look and as such has a more "tool" look IMO.
Both the date and non-date subs are icons, either bring a lot of history to the table.

COSC is more marketing than anything. Noteworthy is the fact the 14060M uses the same movement as the EXP- a watch that carries the COSC banner.
(Of course the M is going to be certified now also).

The fading you speak of is called "patina". It's a natural process of tritium dialed watches that occurs to one degree or another over time. Various explanations exist from exposure to UV radition, to the natural drying process of the paint matrix containing the tritium and phosphors of the older dials.

Newer pieces using luminova (a non-radioactive substance) are said not to patina as the older references did.

Good luck on your choice! Which ever you pick is a winner!!

[Teofilo]

Originally Posted by Becker

Hey guys,
I have enjoyed reading the posts. I am in the market for my first rolex. I have narrowed it down to either a seadweller or a non date submariner. I have tried them on, and the size and weight of the seadweller don't bother me. That being said, and since I am not a diver, is it worth about $1000 more for a date function and to be COSC certified?

Also, I went to the main Tourneau store in Manhatten, and when I mentioned a discount, they said they do not discount the rolexes. Do I have a better shot at a smaller authorized dealer. How much can expect to save on a SD or non date Sub? 10%?

Last thing. Do the colors of the face and markings fade after time? I have seen some older ones, and it seems as though the black face turns bluish and that the white markings turn beige. Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

Sorry for the long post.

Becker, trust me when I say that every penny(cent) that you spend on the non date Sub will prove to be a bargain. I just cant tell you how much pleasure this watch has given me in the 5 weeks since I got it.
The best gift I have ever had....even if it was from me

[Kris]

The sub-no date doesn't get sent in for a COSC "Third-Party" test of the movement itself like the SD does.

A COSC approved movement gets tested for 15 days by placing the movement in various positions, states, and temperatures. It either does, or doesn't get at stamp of approval. If it does, Rolex takes it and put's the movement into a case and assembles the rest of the watch.

If not, Rolex will fine-tune the watch and send it back for another 15-day test and approval.

With the sub-no date, Rolex just assembles the movement and slaps it into a case and ships it straight out to an AD for immediate sale.

Now, you tell me which of the 2 methods above is more thorough and which you feel more comfortable with.

[mike]

Interesting information on COSC testing,

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php...oto=2063&rid=2

[Solar]

The Dweller is a heavy, thick beast, but that was part of the appeal to me when I got it. I figured at the time that I wouldn't likely buy more than one Rolex , and as such I figured I may as well pay for the toughest, most over-built Rolex made if I was going to pay at the pricepoint of a Sub no date vs Sea Dweller.

Now, since I got the GMT II, I wear both in rotation. The Dweller does have the beefier design aspects, and as such the weight may be a consideration for you.

There are also some small differences on dial and case sizes between the Sea Dweller and other sports ss Rolex. I really need the date function, so I went with the Dweller over the no-date or the Sub date with cyclops. The Sub is also lighter than the Sea Dweller, which I appreciate in the the design of my GMT II, which is 20 grams lighter than the SD.

Overall, the Sea Dweller is quite a piece with a proven dive history which I appreciate. I don't require a helium escape valve (never did commercial saturation dive work), but its there all the same, as is the unbelieveable dive rating of 1220 meters......if I ever make that depth, I'll likely have cement shoes on at the time.................

If you like the exclusive, well, you rarely see people wearing a Sea Dweller.

For me, I wear what I like, what's comfortable and what's built to last. I don't care about potential collector value or whether I'm the only one with a certain model. I like well-designed, tough, functional watches with classic design as a rule.

Liek Mike wrote earlier, any of your potential choices are going to serve you really well, so pick what you like, not what some salesperson or acquaintance tells you, myself included!

Best of luck,

Chris

[Tombstone]

I would say select the watch you like. I liked the Sea-Dweller it is a classic and it is not as common. I would try another AD the big T does not discount others will you just have to look around that is the fun part about shopping the search. You have the gold you make the rules who ever will discount gets some of your gold.

[Andad]

I wore my Subdate and SD last week (no not at the same time) and I do like the feel of the SD if I had to choose between them.
SD sits higher and is heavier but doesn't look as big as the Subdate from front on.The SD dial is slightly and noticably smaller than the subdate.

[Teofilo]

I think the real acid test between the SD and either sub (date or non date) is to try them on. Certainly the first time I tried on a SD in the shop it lost its appeal for me. It just felt "clonky" on my wrist and slid about quite a bit.
Not exactly a scientific review of a fine watch.......but you just can't beat trying the buggers on !

[Welshwatchman]

Originally Posted by Kris

The sub-no date doesn't get sent in for a COSC "Third-Party" test of the movement itself like the SD does.

A COSC approved movement gets tested for 15 days by placing the movement in various positions, states, and temperatures. It either does, or doesn't get at stamp of approval. If it does, Rolex takes it and put's the movement into a case and assembles the rest of the watch.

If not, Rolex will fine-tune the watch and send it back for another 15-day test and approval.

With the sub-no date, Rolex just assembles the movement and slaps it into a case and ships it straight out to an AD for immediate sale.

Now, you tell me which of the 2 methods above is more thorough and which you feel more comfortable with.

Buy the 14060 and if it is not within COSC specs take it back and get the dealer to sort it out.

It will then be within COSC spec. albeit without a certificate.

There has been at least 20 posts over the last couple of years where members state that their new COSC Rolex is running outside COSC spec.

We all advise them to take it in for adjustment.

The COSC certificate only warrants that the movement was within spec for the period of the tests and not necessarily beyond that point. I am also quite confident that Rolex does not take a "slap dash" quality approach to the 14060.

[Tools]

Becker,
Welcome.

You can't go wrong with either decision. It's our first Rolex.....it will take weeks for the smile on your face to dim. I would go with the Sub, classic, recognizable, and it's a watch that will last you the rest of your life.

Wear it all the time; for any occasion. After awhile, you might find you want another with a different look.

[mikey]

Welcome, I see you interested in the Sport Models but please try the Datejust. The Datejust is contagious!