need to vent, why do some vintage sellers do this?

[SubKing]

This really kills me.
from time to time I see sellers posting pictures of their vintage watches for sale.

They remove the crystal to get a better pic of the dial and this is what drives me crazy.

with plexi crystal rolex models, theres a bezel retainer ring they have to pry up inorder to get the crystal off, this bezel retainer ring is responsible for holding the crystal to the watch case and also holds the bezel in place; the bezel retainer ring is basically a case back to the front of the watch!

Now, every time that ring is removed, not only does it cause little stretch in the ring itself, but also shaves thin layers off the sides of your plexi crystal which causes less of a seal the next time around when you re install the retainer ring. The crystal should really only be removed 2 times in that crystals life... every time that ring is removed and put back on it causes less and less of a seal and anyone who says different is wrong.

When you have a brand new crystal tropic 16 or what ever you find for your vintage, once the watch maker or you put it on the watch, and use the press to install that ring down over the crystal, it should not be removed again unless you want to replace that crystal again..

I just feel the sellers who remove the crystals to show the dial in the flesh either don't know any better or just don't care that it's just not good for the watch, either way, I know most of you won't ever dive in your vintage but still, the crystal should be left alone.

you want as tight and as fresh of a seal on that crystal as possible and when that crystal is brand new, that first initial seal when the ring is pressed down over the crystal is the best you will get, after that, it will get worse and worse and could hurt the dials longevity in the future due to moister leaking in and you won't even know it, among other things.

If you really feel the need to take a picture of the dial in the flesh then remove the caseback, remove the crown and stem, drop the movement outta the watch and take a picture, if you have the correct movement holder for that caliber.. this is far better than taking off the crystal, sure it will take a bit more time, but its well worth it.

So don’t mess with those crystals!! Unless you're going to install a new one!

i'm done venting now, just wanted to throw this out there for those that did not know about this info.

[YetiBiker]

SubKing, great post and very good observation. Sound advice my friend.

Now, if you still need to vent, you can do as George Costanza's father did on "Seinfeld" and say, "Serenity Now! Serenity Now!"

Sorry if you are not "Seinfeld" fans

[greekbum]

I agree and there are a few out there who play the watchmaker who aren't and it can only compromise the watch and might lead to future issues doing this. If you are at the watchmaker and he is changing the crystal its a good time for a picture but to pop it off for a picture and reuse it....

[Beaumont Miller II]

That is truly insightful and useful information. I did not know that.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

That is truly insightful and useful information. I did not know that.

thanks,
I just call it like i see it.

[Frogman4me]

I think the fact that there is so much value in the dial is the reason sellers do this but I did not realize it was at the cost of the crystal. Thank you for informing us, great post.

[SubKing]

also drives me crazy when they take a 50+ year old movement and place it down on a counter top resting on that 50+year old rotor... if that rotor bends or snaps, kiss it by by, then it will have to have a more updated rolex rotor installed which will change the caliber and of course hurt the value.. there are special holders to hold movements, thats why they make them. just little things like this i see that really turn me off from buying that watch they have listed for sale.. What you don't see won't hurt you, but to actually see it in photos, it hurts.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Frogman4me

I think the fact that there is so much value in the dial is the reason sellers do this but I did not realize it was at the cost of the crystal. Thank you for informing us, great post.

thanks.

you know, all they have to do is remove the movement from the case back end and take a pic of the dial if they have to.. but these crystals are not meant to be popped on and off like a case back.

don't forget tho, they should use a movement holder if they insist on removing the movement otherwise they should just not do it.

on a newer rolex sure, people set the movements down on the rotor all the time, it's still not great for the watch, but the vintage movements, that really kills me.

[gtb5]

I haven't really seen crystal being taken off at all on ebay??

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by SubKing

thanks.

you know, all they have to do is remove the movement from the case back end and take a pic of the dial if they have to.. but these crystals are not meant to be popped on and off like a case back.

don't forget tho, they should use a movement holder if they insist on removing the movement otherwise they should just not do it.

on a newer rolex sure, people set the movements down on the rotor all the time, it's still not great for the watch, but the vintage movements, that really kills me.

It started with cosmos (ESP pn tbh) yes it's easy to pop a movt out but it's also easy to graze an edge or chip a dial and if it's a 50-60k dial but 30k with damage you'll get the idea why going in from the front became common. It then spread to drsd .. Same again massively prone to chipping and a mk 2 with a chips is several thousand less than one with .... Hence again.

Why folks do it on a 5513 is beyond me.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by jedly1

It started with cosmos (ESP pn tbh) yes it's easy to pop a movt out but it's also easy to graze an edge or chip a dial and if it's a 50-60k dial but 30k with damage you'll get the idea why going in from the front became common. It then spread to drsd .. Same again massively prone to chipping and a mk 2 with a chips is several thousand less than one with .... Hence again.

Why folks do it on a 5513 is beyond me.

good point.
why they would do it on any model is beyond me my friend...

I don't think they should take it out from the front or the back,

but if they must, I would say the back, if their a watchmaker and they know what their doing and they have the right tools, then chipping the dial could be avoided.

but, when removing the crystal, all it takes is a slip of the screw driver while prying up that retainer ring and off fly’s the crystal and a nice big gash across that 60k dial from the screw driver or the hands... it really isn't any watch makers favorite thing to do is changing a crystal on a 60k watch. But when they do need to change a crystal on a 60k watch, you can bet your life that they take the movement outta the watch first while pressing that crystal back onto the case.

if you don't take the movement out while re-installing the crystal, could you imagine if that watch case slipped off that nylon surface and landed face down on the dial without the crystal to protect the dial and hands.. yikes.

Less force and pressure is needed when going from the back, and if the crystal retainer ring comes off that easy without having to pry it up then its time for a new crystal and maybe even a new ring at 600 a pop if you can find a NOS ring..

I think they should all be left alone.

[jedly1]

With the cosmos there isn't a crystal retaining ring it's the bezel
And so is quite easy to do it, I've seem some of ouritaliannfriends do it quicker than I can realise what they are doing ...

As for chips n grazes ...
Every rsc in the world will tell you it's a possibility on every strip down ... Which is one of the reasons Rolex us stopped doing valuable dials and used movt parts as a lame excuse

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by jedly1

With the cosmos there isn't a crystal retaining ring it's the bezel
And so is quite easy to do it, I've seem some of ouritaliannfriends do it quicker than I can realise what they are doing ...

As for chips n grazes ...
Every rsc in the world will tell you it's a possibility on every strip down ... Which is one of the reasons Rolex us stopped doing valuable dials and used movt parts as a lame excuse

Cosmos aside, all rolex watches use some form of a retaining ring. Date-just crystals are held on by the bezel which acts as the retaining ring as well but are just as hard to get off as any other retaining ring6.

I see your point, but I just feel they should not be touched period. open the watch for servicing, open the watch for a minor repair, open the case back to snap the movement inside but don't open the watch to the point where you're jeopardizing the watch itself all for some pictures.

at the end of the day, rolex designed their watches to be worked on from the back, not the front. So if people out there are taking the crystals off to gain access to the dial for what ever reason, it's not good.

me personally, if i had to and only if i had to, would rather remove the movement from the back to gain access to the dial then have to remove the crystal then re install that crystal regardless of the value that watch had and the risk of damaging the dial. There are such tools that allow you to re-insert a watch dial and movement with great control. if you can think of a tool, bergeon already has it.

[jedly1]

dont neccessarily disagree with you ..and i dont photo unless movt out as a whole and even then only usualy if its before a service trip ..

just offering up a thought on WHY some do it and how it came about ...

[adt]

Thanks for the information SubKing and Jedly1. Much appreciated. I learnt something today

[Jason71]

Very interesting thread. I learned something this morning.

[Johny]

Originally Posted by Jason71

Very interesting thread. I learned something this morning.

x2.

[Michael M.]

Originally Posted by greekbum

I agree and there are a few out there who play the watchmaker who aren't and it can only compromise the watch and might lead to future issues doing this. If you are at the watchmaker and he is changing the crystal its a good time for a picture but to pop it off for a picture and reuse it....

I agree

[lhanddds]

So great to hear watchmaker info, thanks

[Kolkek]

Interesting indeed

[TurboWatch]

who's worth a damn would not be using a screwdriver to remove the crystal/retainer. There's proper tool to do the job without compromising the integrity of the parts.

[wyattearp]

Originally Posted by yetibiker

subking, great post and very good observation. Sound advice my friend.

Now, if you still need to vent, you can do as george costanza's father did on "seinfeld" and say, "serenity now! Serenity now!"

Sorry if you are not "seinfeld" fans

insanity later!

[KarlFr]

Well I've bought from on of the sellers doing this and I don't mind seeing the dial properly(which is pretty much the main value on some pieces). After buying as in the latest case having the watch serviced with replacing the crystal with a NOS one is pretty great to do

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by TurboWatch

who's worth a damn would not be using a screwdriver to remove the crystal/retainer. There's proper tool to do the job without compromising the integrity of the parts.

not sure if i can make sense of what you just said?
but ill try.

most of these sellers that remove the crystal to show the dial are not watch makers, so the fact they actually have a bergeon wedge spacer is a long shot when most can do it with a screw driver.. it's a 200 tool that only a watch maker would buy.

and trust me, the crystal is compromised every time it's removed, these arnt saphire crystals were talking about here.......................................

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by SubKing

not sure if i can make sense of what you just said?
but ill try.

most of these sellers that remove the crystal to show the dial are not watch makers, so the fact they actually have a bergeon wedge spacer is a long shot when most can do it with a screw driver.. it's a 200 tool that only a watch maker would buy.

and trust me, the crystal is compromised every time it's removed, these arnt saphire crystals were talking about here.......................................

every one i've ever seen do it ..inlcuding watchmakers and even the odd rolex tech ...have used a caseknife. dont know if you could even do it with a screwdriver withourt gouging the case/ring.

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by jedly1

every one i've ever seen do it ..inlcuding watchmakers and even the odd rolex tech ...have used a caseknife. dont know if you could even do it with a screwdriver withourt gouging the case/ring.

Wow thanks Jed for the info, nice to know. I have seen them use the knife to remove bezels but not the case ring on subs. Do most use a press to put them back on?

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by jedly1

every one i've ever seen do it ..inlcuding watchmakers and even the odd rolex tech ...have used a caseknife. dont know if you could even do it with a screwdriver withourt gouging the case/ring.

I use a bergeon pry tool. it's curved with a very thin dull edge and designed so it gouges nothing, you tip the pry tool back and off comes the case back or what ever your lifting, 10x better than any case knife. cannot tell you how many times i have cut myself using those case knives.

but on another note, even using a case knife is not correct for the crystal retainer ring. using a case knife only lifts up one side at a time when lifting a crystal retainer ring, doing it this way can actually cause the ring to get miss shaped and or bent. there are tools that lift up the ring with even presure all the way around the ring, almost like a reverse press.

what ever their using to lift the ring i really don't care nor do i know for sure. i can only think a seller who is not advertised as a watch maker does not have most tools a watchmaker does..

my point is, Do not take that crystal retainer ring off. it's only going to shave thin layers off the sides of the crystal every time you remove it and press it back on... it's metal rubbing on plexi, its known fact it's not good to do more than a couple times in that crystals life. you don't want to mess around with a good solid seal on a crystal, for the love of god thats why rolex put case backs on their watches!

so you don't have to gain access to the dial through the crystal.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

Wow thanks Jed for the info, nice to know. I have seen them use the knife to remove bezels but not the case ring on subs. Do most use a press to put them back on?

don't use a knife for the retaining ring. i mean, you can, but i wouldn't.

and a press is the only way to put them back on. if the ring slides on without a press, it's 1000% time for a new crystal and maybe even a ring. there goes a 1000 bucks for the set.

[TurboWatch]

Originally Posted by SubKing

don't use a knife for the retaining ring. i mean, you can, but i wouldn't.

and a press is the only way to put them back on. if the ring slides on without a press, it's 1000% time for a new crystal and maybe even a ring. there goes a 1000 bucks for the set.

isn't your common household knife

It's something that every watchmaker has in their tool box (couple of dollars worth) :

[SubKing]

Thanks and I have 3 of them but I prefer to use better quality tools then that when doing anything on a 12k watch.

I use case knives when doing batt changes on swatch watches

Glad I don't send my watches to you for service.

Poor taste coming on my thread arguing fact with fiction