fake milsub on eBay

[fauxataraxia]

let the fake-spotting, finger-wagging and tongue-lashing fun begin (thanks to hodinkee)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ROYAL-NAVY-Ref-5...d=253972132039

[scarab007]

That watch is all jacked up.

[mtgmt]

please help me here and tell me what and why this is fake im very new to these vintage watches

[capote]

"great accurate time keeping within 30seconds in a day" How is this great?

[Annan]

Originally Posted by mtgmt

please help me here and tell me what and why this is fake im very new to these vintage watches

Yes....me too. The picture is apparently no longer available. What I did see earlier that would make me think FAKE was (1) inscription on the caseback and (2) very shiny case sides. What other clues were there?

[apeogre]

I love reading Engrish.

[mcjp6]

The case absolutely fake........

Dial either fake or very badly refinished.

seller nippon-vintage-watch

[LI Matt]

Doesn't have the "short 'E's" that Orchi told me to look for.

You'd think an established dealer would know the Milsub is the über-Grail, and set an opening bid accordingly.

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by LI Matt

Doesn't have the "short 'E's" that Orchi told me to look for.

Orchi is a good and well respected font of knowledge here .....

It is the long "E's" on this case that shows that it is counterfeit.

[joeylim]

hey guys I won a bid from the same seller from ebay and was it really a counterfeit sub? or just some unoriginal parts in em? heres the link to the bidding I won. see for yourself if this is another one like the sub. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/221592714554?...84.m1439.l2649
scroll down

[Blong]

Originally Posted by joeylim

hey guys I won a bid from the same seller from ebay and was it really a counterfeit sub? or just some unoriginal parts in em? heres the link to the bidding I won. see for yourself if this is another one like the sub. http://www.ebay.ca/itm/221592714554?...84.m1439.l2649
scroll down

It looks ok. But you do realize that this is a very small watch...typically good for younger boy or even a woman. The size is 29mm.... Just wanted to make sure you saw that....obviously I don't know the situation for which this is for...

[joeylim]

Yes, I'm almost positive it's a 30mm case, not a whole lot different but still. I think I'm fine with it, perhaps I find modern 41mm datejust and what not a bit too much. I'm not quite sure by what you say ok, is like the condition or something that's not right? I find it to be quite mint.

[locutus49]

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

[joeylim]

haha what?

[Blong]

Originally Posted by joeylim

Yes, I'm almost positive it's a 30mm case, not a whole lot different but still. I think I'm fine with it, perhaps I find modern 41mm datejust and what not a bit too much. I'm not quite sure by what you say ok, is like the condition or something that's not right? I find it to be quite mint.

Quite mint? No, it's a 50 yr old watch that has been polished and looks good, but you can see the dial is a bit discolored, there are scratches and some pitting on the case, and the hands are chipped a bit etc...which again is good for a watch that old.

Back to the size thing tho...most men that are not into a watch that is 41MM are then into something 36MM like the standard mans DateJust, etc (often considered small this day and age). I am telling you that 30MM is quite small...it is a watch made for a boy just like they said in the eBay description.

[joeylim]

Originally Posted by Blong

Quite mint? No, it's a 50 yr old watch that has been polished and looks good, but you can see the dial is a bit discolored, there are scratches and some pitting on the case, and the hands are chipped a bit etc...which again is good for a watch that old.

Back to the size thing tho...most men that are not into a watch that is 41MM are then into something 36MM like the standard mans DateJust, etc (often considered small this day and age). I am telling you that 30MM is quite small...it is a watch made for a boy just like they said in the eBay description.

Yes, as a part of taking good care, polishing and doing auxiliary after work is necessary to maintain good condition. I think most people that try to find cheaper old "luxury" watches intending to take it into a good service shop to fix up. For my 'case' (haha) it's been already done, and quite frankly I think they've done a good job. As you say, the watch is still in great condition for +50 years...
I gotten lots of concerned advice for the case diameter. I don't think it'll be a huge problem as I have a quite thin/small wrist. Obviously I would prefer a nice 34-36mm vos spec, but i'll have to live with this until I can find a good way out. Not saying I don't like the case diameter, i'll just need some time to get used to :). On another topic, most young watch advocates nowadays love the reverso despite how small the watch is. Who knows if the esoteric small diameter watches will temporarily rule the industry in 10 years.

[drifter01]

Originally Posted by joeylim

I gotten lots of concerned advice for the case diameter. I don't think it'll be a huge problem as I have a quite thin/small wrist. Obviously I would prefer a nice 34-36mm vos spec, but i'll have to live with this until I can find a good way out. Not saying I don't like the case diameter, i'll just need some time to get used to :). On another topic, most young watch advocates nowadays love the reverso despite how small the watch is. Who knows if the esoteric small diameter watches will temporarily rule the industry in 10 years.

For what its worth, I have a 32mm Bulova 23 Jewel that I wear quite a bit, and I have 8.5 inch wrists. I normally wear 34mm AKs. Small watches aren't bad, just different (these days). If you like it, wear it! If someone else thinks its too small, that's their problem, not yours.
Wear what you like.

[joeylim]

Originally Posted by drifter01

For what its worth, I have a 32mm Bulova 23 Jewel that I wear quite a bit, and I have 8.5 inch wrists. I normally wear 34mm AKs. Small watches aren't bad, just different (these days). If you like it, wear it! If someone else thinks its too small, that's their problem, not yours.
Wear what you like.

thanks for the input, nobody has told me that till now :( haha.

[joeylim]

Quick update guys: I decided to just give up the ref.6551, I will contact the seller on ebay and I will bid on a different watch I had my eyes on. Here's a link if you are interested to see and give me some great opinions and ideas! thanks, hope to hear from you.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rolex-Oyster-...-/111505683786

[Blong]

Originally Posted by joeylim

Quick update guys: I decided to just give up the ref.6551, I will contact the seller on ebay and I will bid on a different watch I had my eyes on. Here's a link if you are interested to see and give me some great opinions and ideas! thanks, hope to hear from you.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rolex-Oyster-...-/111505683786

That definitely appears to be a redone dial to me. There is no Swiss Made at the bottom, the crown looks odd the way it is placed around the minute markers....also it could just be the angle, but the Rolex lettering appears to be a bit crooked (almost like the dial is turned just a touch to the left).

I would have some concerns as to what other things may be after market including the bracelet.... It could be a good buy, but I would have it really checked prior to purchase - maybe see if you can get some pics of the movement etc.

[Old Expat Beast]

Definitely a redone dial, IMO. Horrible lume, plus the points mentioned above.

[joeylim]

Hmm now that you've mentioned it kinda looks like it too. Is it a big problem or perhaps something hard to service? Also the seller describes it as a faded blue dial which discoloured to look like purple. Hmm

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by joeylim

Hmm now that you've mentioned it kinda looks like it too. Is it a big problem or perhaps something hard to service? Also the seller describes it as a faded blue dial which discoloured to look like purple. Hmm

Move on.

[joeylim]

Idk if I should start bidding...

[Blong]

Originally Posted by joeylim

Idk if I should start bidding...

If it's a redone dial, then rolex will not service it and you will have to pay for a new one....he is lying in his description by calling the dial original and faded. I wouldn't buy this watch with your money....

Also, I don't think the bezel should be stainless steel on a two tone...haven't seen that before....

[Presa canary]

Way to hop on a 3 yr old thread

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Presa canary

Way to hop on a 3 yr old thread

I think it's fair enough in this case. He's buying from the same seller whose wares were questioned by the OP.

[joeylim]

Originally Posted by Blong

If it's a redone dial, then rolex will not service it and you will have to pay for a new one....he is lying in his description by calling the dial original and faded. I wouldn't buy this watch with your money....

Also, I don't think the bezel should be stainless steel on a two tone...haven't seen that before....

Before I say anything, I hope you guys understood I'm new to the forum and new to vintage watches. That being said, I'm learning a lot these couple of months. So I have done some research for the dial and the bezel that bought some suspicion. I'm not a 100% sure but by the pictures from chrono24 and other confirmed authentic dials, the dial on this ebay listing doesn't seem that off. As in I'm not quite sure if it is a aftermarket/redone dial. All of the pictures show tinge of discolouration or perhaps that's the original color. But one thing that's bugging me is the placement of the crown, It seems it's not lined perfectly with the second markers. It seems like it moved slightly to the left.hmmm
For the bezel, I found that some models have a two tone, matte and shiny combination on them. some don't and some do, it really depends on the production year I think. Not that common but I do see some of the same reference with that.
Overall I think that the problem you guys have suggested is a legitimate cause but again with some research it seems some areas are really grey.
i)crown placement
ii)no "swiss made" sign on the bottom
iii)listed serial # doesn't match the suggested year.

bid ends tomorrow morning.. I'll have to think about it for a long time.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by joeylim

Before I say anything, I hope you guys understood I'm new to the forum and new to vintage watches. That being said, I'm learning a lot these couple of months. So I have done some research for the dial and the bezel that bought some suspicion. I'm not a 100% sure but by the pictures from chrono24 and other confirmed authentic dials, the dial on this ebay listing doesn't seem that off. As in I'm not quite sure if it is a aftermarket/redone dial. All of the pictures show tinge of discolouration or perhaps that's the original color. But one thing that's bugging me is the placement of the crown, It seems it's not lined perfectly with the second markers. It seems like it moved slightly to the left.hmmm
For the bezel, I found that some models have a two tone, matte and shiny combination on them. some don't and some do, it really depends on the production year I think. Not that common but I do see some of the same reference with that.
Overall I think that the problem you guys have suggested is a legitimate cause but again with some research it seems some areas are really grey.
i)crown placement
ii)no "swiss made" sign on the bottom
iii)listed serial # doesn't match the suggested year.

bid ends tomorrow morning.. I'll have to think about it for a long time.

There's no grey area here. Knowledgeable people have given you good advice. You really should not be considering bidding on this watch, in my opinion.

[joe100]

New or not, you received sound council. Avoid this watch, don't bid. I'm not sure how much more clearly we have to say it.

The details about the brushed and polishing on the finish aren't grey at all. They're very well known. This watch is a dud... Move on!