What is the commercial value of a box and papers ?

[RolexSA]

First a thank you to the people running this forum and the ones contributing some excellent info .

This summer when on holiday in Spain , I bought a Rolex Sea-Dweller Deepsea that was on offer at a secondhand store in a famed holiday spot .
I instantly liked the watch and after going back and forth over a couple of days we came to a deal .
The watch on offer was being sold on behalf of the owner and the shop assistant assured me the watch came with its original box and more importantly it's documents as they had seen them . When I came back the next day to make the final payment and pick up the watch it turned out that the owner was abroad and could not bring in the box and documents till a week later .
Maybe foolishly and mainly I was eager to have that watch on my wrist , I agreed that they would ship the box and documents to my home address and I paid the full amount .

6 weeks and many phone calls later I have still not received the box and papers . The shop manager says that they haven't seen the owner yet , but I understand that they have credited his account with the proceeds .

The shop now offers me 250 euro compensation . To be honest I would much rather have the box and papers .

I had the watch looked over at the Rolex importers in Brussels and it is all OK . They said they can not replace the documents but could perform a service that would give me some kind of equivalent . Snag .. 250 euro will not pay for a service nor will give it me a box and spare links .

What should I do ? I really like the watch and comparing the prices on Ebay and what I paid for it I'm pretty satisfied on that side .

What would you do ? Take the 250 Euro and forget about the box and papers ??
I was made believe that the watch came with all that when I paid for it .
For the moment I will refrain from mentioning the name and exact location of the shop as we are still negotiating .

[bondtoys]

Hello,

really difficult question because it depends on people's opinion re. this topic.

You'll find many users here who will be telling you, that if the authenticity is without doubt and the watch is older than 2 years (warranty is over), the certificate is useless.

You'll get a box on ebay for ~US$ 100,--

I would never buy a watch without a certificate as it will affect the resale value and it gives me considerable safety, that the watch has not been stolen.

I had burglars in my home, they took the watches but not the papers. I have found one of my watches on ebay and got it back.The poor guy, who purchased the watch without paper did not get compensated at all.

Additionally, there are groups in Asia, who knockout tourists with drops and take their watches. These wathces then are sold without papers - obviously...

[bayerische]

It's a bummer not to have the b+p for sure. I would rather have them too than the 250 euro.

However, that are not linked to the proper functioning and enjoyment of your watch in anyway, so if you are happy with the sea-dweller keep it.

Try and get the shop to pay you a bit more for "the damage done". 250e is not bad, but maybe you could get more? Or say 250e + a box. Boxes are available.

[cruvon]

I would say about a 10-30% premium is what a watch with papers+boxes would command. If you got yourself a really good deal you might still be ahead, but doubt that since is from a dealer.

[Passionata]

You need the papers,period,box is nice but papers are a must .
EUR250 for compensation, 2k at least or full refund.

[dddrees]

It sounds like this isn't a vintage\older watch so 250 euro is about right for Box and Papers. The spare links if your missing some thats another story. Sounds like you don't need them, however if you go to sell the watch that could very well be a problem.

If your missing any you need to try to get a larger discount for the cost of each link missing. How many links if any are missing? Is there any chance they can track the owner down and get him to forward the rest of the items missing?

[93 Turbo]

You've had your new watch authenticated, so no loss there.

Box and papers would be nice, but.

I'm not a box and papers guy, a piece of paper and a cardboard box isn't going to make your watch more than it is.

So long at the watch is authenticated, a recent RSC service with service document is more valuable to me than a document that is X amount of years old.

Get the Euro refund, that way you'll be that much ahead on the watch.

Enjoy your new watch.

[RolexSA]

Thanks for the input , true at this time I'm happy with the watch and the only other "expensive" watch I owned before , a Breitling , came with it's box and documents but I misplaced these somewhere and never looked back .
Not contemplating to sell or replace the watch at all until it falls off my wrist in years to come .
I did sent them a mail , saying I would take 500 euro and return it if they get the box and documents to me . This was a couple of days ago but I haven't had an answer on that so far .

[padi56]

Originally Posted by RolexSA

First a thank you to the people running this forum and the ones contributing some excellent info .

This summer when on holiday in Spain , I bought a Rolex Sea-Dweller Deepsea that was on offer at a secondhand store in a famed holiday spot .
I instantly liked the watch and after going back and forth over a couple of days we came to a deal .
The watch on offer was being sold on behalf of the owner and the shop assistant assured me the watch came with its original box and more importantly it's documents as they had seen them . When I came back the next day to make the final payment and pick up the watch it turned out that the owner was abroad and could not bring in the box and documents till a week later .
Maybe foolishly and mainly I was eager to have that watch on my wrist , I agreed that they would ship the box and documents to my home address and I paid the full amount .

6 weeks and many phone calls later I have still not received the box and papers . The shop manager says that they haven't seen the owner yet , but I understand that they have credited his account with the proceeds .

The shop now offers me 250 euro compensation . To be honest I would much rather have the box and papers .

I had the watch looked over at the Rolex importers in Brussels and it is all OK . They said they can not replace the documents but could perform a service that would give me some kind of equivalent . Snag .. 250 euro will not pay for a service nor will give it me a box and spare links .

What should I do ? I really like the watch and comparing the prices on Ebay and what I paid for it I'm pretty satisfied on that side .

What would you do ? Take the 250 Euro and forget about the box and papers ??
I was made believe that the watch came with all that when I paid for it .
For the moment I will refrain from mentioning the name and exact location of the shop as we are still negotiating .

For me the most important bit is the watch, the box well its just a box a packaging box and not the best of those.As for the papers if warranty has expired well thats all it is a bit of paper.And I would never pay extra money for a box and out dated warranty paper I always buy the watch.Now when you have a watch serviced by any RSC you will get Rolex service papers, with all the details about your watch plus that will be a valid two year warranty paper.

[DiamondJack]

If you were talking vintage, it's a far bigger issue since back then watches were not so collectable. So, it is far harder to find a vintage watch with box and papers. Vintage therefore tends to comand about a 20%-25% premium for B&P depending on the watch.

For modern watches, I would not be so worried and, as other people have said, the watch is the most important aspect. It will have a slight impact on the resale value and may put some people off. But if you price it accordingly, there will be plenty of buyers out there for a good condition piece whether or not you have B&P. Indeed, I have seen newish B&P's on ebay since many people just sell them on to get some money back on the original watch outlay.

So I would check e-bay out to get a better idea of the value of a newish set.

[Speed]

Take the 250 euros of course!!!

You will take a hit if you ever sell...but does not sound like that is a concern for you.

[mboverst]

Hmmm, here's my thought. I don't value the box and papers as much as some owners on here. In the end it's just another box that is taking up space in your closet and the paper is pretty much worthless once that warranty expires. I think the paper offers some feeling of safety for people when purchasing second hand, but if the warranty is expired the watch can be authenticated by an expert very easily and probably means more than the original paper.

Ex: You're buying an 'M' or earlier sub. The warranty has expired so all you have is a piece of paper with a serial matching the case. This makes you feel warm and fuzzy that you're purchase is authentic. Unknown to you, the watch has been fitted with an aftermarket bezel insert and crown. Now if you had an updated COA from a Rolex expert (or Rolex themselves) then you could be assured that it was recently inspected and confirmed authentic. Just my $0.02...feel free to disagree :)

Back on topic. You paid with the agreement of receiving both. The only way they can replace those is to offer to pay the full price for a service so that you receive official Rolex papers documenting everything. I would make them source you a complete kit ($150+ US) including box, pamphlets, etc or compensate you how you see fit on top of the above requested service. You paid a premium for everything and anything less than what I state is a complete breech of the agreement and making for a fraudulent sale (as I think it is pretty evident they had no intention of every getting you these non-existent papers).

[mtgmt]

Originally Posted by Passionata

You need the papers,period,box is nice but papers are a must .
EUR250 for compensation, 2k at least or full refund.

LOL 2k???????WTF

[DG123]

$2,000 to $3,000 value for papers.

Originally Posted by RolexSA

First a thank you to the people running this forum and the ones contributing some excellent info .

This summer when on holiday in Spain , I bought a Rolex Sea-Dweller Deepsea that was on offer at a secondhand store in a famed holiday spot .
I instantly liked the watch and after going back and forth over a couple of days we came to a deal .
The watch on offer was being sold on behalf of the owner and the shop assistant assured me the watch came with its original box and more importantly it's documents as they had seen them . When I came back the next day to make the final payment and pick up the watch it turned out that the owner was abroad and could not bring in the box and documents till a week later .
Maybe foolishly and mainly I was eager to have that watch on my wrist , I agreed that they would ship the box and documents to my home address and I paid the full amount .

6 weeks and many phone calls later I have still not received the box and papers . The shop manager says that they haven't seen the owner yet , but I understand that they have credited his account with the proceeds .

The shop now offers me 250 euro compensation . To be honest I would much rather have the box and papers .

I had the watch looked over at the Rolex importers in Brussels and it is all OK . They said they can not replace the documents but could perform a service that would give me some kind of equivalent . Snag .. 250 euro will not pay for a service nor will give it me a box and spare links .

What should I do ? I really like the watch and comparing the prices on Ebay and what I paid for it I'm pretty satisfied on that side .

What would you do ? Take the 250 Euro and forget about the box and papers ??
I was made believe that the watch came with all that when I paid for it .
For the moment I will refrain from mentioning the name and exact location of the shop as we are still negotiating .

[Kringkily]

Get the box and papers. Increases your sale value more than that 250 Euro and gives assurance to the buyer that the watch was not stolen and could be confiscated by RSC.

[rad87gn]

I kept every last thing of every watch I own. All stickers, books, bezel protectors, extra links, papers, receipts, even the plastic bag they went home with. Just so there is zero question they are real if I decided to sell later. That worth? I'd say about $100 if sold straight out. With the watch? That's what most buyers want but doesn't affect the real value of the watch itself.

I went into my AD with all my watches listed below to get an update on insurance. They thought I was joking when I dropped them all on the table. Then was shocked once they opened them up and realized it was no joke. Good times.

[GOB]

I asked this same question a few weeks ago and the consensus was the same, though this time around people are placing a lot more importance on the papers. I just got a Daytona with no papers, but the seller, a well known jewelry store, gave me a certificate from their store and having the serial number on it. There is definitely a price difference with no papers, but it is not like it is worthless. I have heard a $1K difference in selling price for an AP Rubberclad, and in other instances, selling price is the same (all depends as to what watch you are selling).

[ManUtd]

If you are going to keep the watch then take the 250 Euro. As been mentioned before, you will get similar "papers" when you get the watch serviced at RSC in the future.

[mboverst]

Just as an update. It's really more valuable to collectors like you find on the watch forums here. Out in the wild boxes and papers don't affect the value as much as you would think.

At the dealer trade shows, I'd say 85%+ of the watches sold have no boxes and papers and you'd be shocked as to how little the price difference is on these pieces vs. complete sets.

[ingoodtime]

Originally Posted by padi56

For me the most important bit is the watch, the box well its just a box a packaging box and not the best of those.As for the papers if warranty has expired well thats all it is a bit of paper.And I would never pay extra money for a box and out dated warranty paper I always buy the watch.Now when you have a watch serviced by any RSC you will get Rolex service papers, with all the details about your watch plus that will be a valid two year warranty paper.

Since you have no proof that this watch was not stolen, you might want the store to pay for an RSC service. If the watch was not stolen, all will be well. If it was stolen, you may lose the watch and have an even tougher problem.
I bought my pre loved SERTI sub from a non AD small jewelry chain with box and the Rolex original purchase warranty paper with the original puechasers name etc.The story to me was the owner passed away and the wife finally decided to part with the watch. Except, the original owners paperwork shows an address close to the original store of purchase, that is many hours drive from the store I bought it at. Morale of this story is.......how sure can u be that no theft claim is pending? Rolex USA does us a dis-service not allowing us to check the serial number before purchasing. I am guessing an AD would have the ability to check prior to buying a preowned.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by GOB

I asked this same question a few weeks ago and the consensus was the same, though this time around people are placing a lot more importance on the papers. I just got a Daytona with no papers, but the seller, a well known jewelry store, gave me a certificate from their store and having the serial number on it. There is definitely a price difference with no papers, but it is not like it is worthless. I have heard a $1K difference in selling price for an AP Rubberclad, and in other instances, selling price is the same (all depends as to what watch you are selling).

Dont know why they call them papers all they are is a warranty paper much like any other warranty paper you get with say any domestic item.The warranty paper is in fact the easiest to fake, and just because a watch has got a bit of paper don't always mean the watch is genuine.

[Mikel212]

"Rolex USA does us a dis-service not allowing us to check the serial number before purchasing. I am guessing an AD would have the ability to check prior to buying a preowned. "



Rolex doesnt earn a penny in the secondary market (used watches), so why would they care to spend time, money and resources to confirm whether the watch that youre interested in buying from a complete stranger is stolen or not?
Do ADs buy used Rolex watches from the public? I dont think they do. They may take in a used watch as trade or return, but I dont think they would pay money for my used watches. I've never hear of an AD having access to Rolex's stolen serial number datatbase. Even when you bring in a Rolex for service at an AD, they cant check. Only Rolex servicing centers can cross reference the serial numbers.

[ro-lex]

Your offer to accept 500 Euro is about right. On a modern Rolex in UK you could get around £400 to £500 more with B&P . The talk of thousands of Euros Dollars or Pounds, is simple not the true value. But...get a signed paper with the sellers guarantee that he accepts full liability if the watch turns out to be lost of stolen, then just enjoy wearing it !

[RolexSA]

Originally Posted by padi56

For me the most important bit is the watch, the box well its just a box a packaging box and not the best of those.As for the papers if warranty has expired well thats all it is a bit of paper.And I would never pay extra money for a box and out dated warranty paper I always buy the watch.Now when you have a watch serviced by any RSC you will get Rolex service papers, with all the details about your watch plus that will be a valid two year warranty paper.

I think the same as this gentleman , I bought the watch and not the box and papers . I was told at Rolex Brussels that the watch most likely no longer benefits from the warranty . The watch was sold end 2008 or early 2009 and it would not require service for another 3 years or so .
I would have bought the watch regardless it had de documents , but given that the shop used the fact it had the documents and papers as a sales argument I believe I'm intiteled to them or a compensation .
So far no reply on my latest mail to them .

[dricig]

Since you are asking for opinions here, you are concerned about the Box/Papers issue.
I myself would return the watch immediately unless they come up with the promised and paid for items.
The dealer misled you and does not deserve your business.
If it really bothers you (and it will) I would go to an AD and buy new.


I always go by:
No box - no papers - no deal
especially with vintage.

dave

[Time2time]

I would either;

1) Ask for a FULL refund.

If not,

2) Ask for the cost of a service and buy a box on Ebay.

[ingoodtime]

Originally Posted by Mikel212

"Rolex USA does us a dis-service not allowing us to check the serial number before purchasing. I am guessing an AD would have the ability to check prior to buying a preowned. "

Rolex doesnt earn a penny in the secondary market (used watches), so why would they care to spend time, money and resources to confirm whether the watch that youre interested in buying from a complete stranger is stolen or not?
Do ADs buy used Rolex watches from the public? I dont think they do. They may take in a used watch as trade or return, but I dont think they would pay money for my used watches. I've never hear of an AD having access to Rolex's stolen serial number datatbase. Even when you bring in a Rolex for service at an AD, they cant check. Only Rolex servicing centers can cross reference the serial numbers.

If Rolex RSC is going to confiscate a watch reported as stolen when receiving it for service even though you have purchased it in what you thought was a
lawful sale, then, they should help a potential consumer of their product before this situation arises. True, they may not make money on our purchasing a preowned watch but I feel it is good general customer service. Let's use me as an example. My first Rolex is pre owned. I enjoy the watch and became a Rolex customer and bought my next Rolex, a brand new GMTIIC at an AD.Rolex made money. With Rolex USA not supplying us in this way, some owners in the secondary market may be afraid of sending their pre owned to an RSC for service. Now, that is a direct financial loss for Rolex RSC. Even if the RSC is privately owned and under some sort of contract with Rolex, I would imagine there are some fees owed to Rolex on each service performed although I may be off base on that.it is possible that they only must purchase parts from Rolex. Rolex in the UK makes serial number information available to consumers per posts I have seen on TRF.Perhaps an email blitz to Rolex USA by TRF members will let them know how concerned we are.

[jonathon555]

I bought a pre owned diamond dj for my wife from a specialist pre owned watch dealer

The watch did not have the original papers with it as it was 13 years old

The dealer provided a modern genuine Rolex box, there own paper work showing all serial numbers & Rolex check data, insurance valuation etc & the next Rolex service F.o.c

I was happy enough, however they made it perfectly clear what was included before doing the deal, the price also reflected what was being offered I would buy another watch from this dealer, no problems.

[Dr.A]

I would not touch a watch without papers, don't really care for the box (as you can obtain it from a pre-owned jeweler who sells rolexes)

papers increases resale value or if not, it will attract more buyers when you want to flip it. Some buyers like to know the origin of the watch, and at the same time to verify the authenticity of the watch. Papers, original receipts, etc. are needed for travelling outside of the country to prevent hassle and problems at the customs.

IMO the more the value of the watch is high, the higher the loss in value of a watch without papers. I have seen 3-4k difference on all gold daytona models without certificates when I was shopping for one.

good luck.

[Tools]

You say that you got a good deal on your Deep-Sea.. Good for you..

I've never seen more than a couple of hundred bucks difference in actual purchase price, although some folks think their old warranty paper is worth more and try to jack up the price, they all still run fairly close...

You need to decide if you want the watch you have now for a great price, or send it back and spend considerably more just to have a box and card..