Thailand is the place!!!

[drainaps]

Good morning,

Spent a few days last week in a business conference in Bangkok. As the conference came to a closing..... I googled BKK Vintage and here is what happened.

Went to a big middle of the road shopping centre by the name of MBK. On the 3 floor, there are quite a few watch traders. I spent quite some time at one of them, which was particularly busy.

To one side of the shop, there was a Pakistani gentleman sitting at a table with one Thai gentleman and ome of Japanese origin ( did learnt it afterwards, not at first sight). The Pakistani gentleman travels the world trading in second hand Rolex, mainly buying from pawn shops in places like Thailand ( some owned by the Thai gentleman at the table) and selling in Dubai and China ( and had the wads of cash in an unassuming paper bag to prove his credentials).

Guys, what a sight. The Thai pawn shop owner got watch after watch from his unassuming black nylon bag. All in plastic pouches, no box or papers. The Pakistani negotiated over the counter in groups of 3/4 watches. He was mainly interested in gold and SS/ Gold models, as these seem to go well with his Middle East and Chinese customers. Prices were...... Well, breathtakingly low. Just as an example, a gold president switched hands for the equivalent of EUR 6,000. Middle of the road Gold/SS traded for around 1,500- 2000 EUR. The buyer just handled every piece for a few secs, mostly looking at how worn down the bracelet was and, voilà, on to the next.

Before you guys believe it was a setup to make me buy something fake or overpriced, they clearly told me I was not a "dealer" and was not allowed to participate in the trade. In any case, the Thai seller did not trade in sports models, and these are the only rolexes I fancy.

After they finished their deal and something like 100K USD changed hands, the Pakistani gentleman told me that the cheapest brand new and second-hand Rolexes at this point in time are in Thailand, and on witnessing what I had witnessed, I fully believe him.

This gave me the opportunity to browse with them the second- hand counter in the shop where the trading was taking place, and I left with 2 Tag Aquaracers Calibre 5, in mint condition, w box and papers. One was the 300m aluminum bezel ( 700 EUR / 950 USD) and the second one a limited-edition 500m helium valve equipped Aquaracer for 1,100 EUR / 1,550 USD.

Not a bad afternoon in Bangkok after all, and all this without hitting any of the girlie bars downtown?

Enjoy your day.

[Puffy]

pics or you weren't in Thailand

[adt]

how can you be sure they are all genuine?

[Flash Gordon]

There must be a lot of guys in Bangkok who are broke and never paid back the pawn shops OR there are lots of stolen Rolexes sold to pawn shops. Take your pick!

[MoBe]

If Rolex sells 700,00 watches a year you know they are`nt all coming to North America or Europe now,are they?

[desmo996]

I would be very weary of buying a high end watch from a place like that in the East. Sure the lure of an incredible deal is intoxicating but you have absolutely no way of knowing what you're getting especially if there aren't any papers with your purchase.

It would be a fun place to explore though...

[bayerische]

MBK is a huge high-end shopping center.

The "normal" watch stores in Bangkok blows away most high-end watch stores in Europe and USA.

So it's very much a "stereotype" to claim it would be fake watches, or you wouldn't know what you are getting.

What about the over the counter sellers in a US mall, say Sawgrass mills in Florida? Not many papers and box Rolex's there either.

Sure, there's a lot of franken watches around, but having even my amount of Rolex knowledge, I would be comfortable to buy from a store like that.

[bondtoys]

from what I am being told, there is a Thai mafia, who lure tourists with pretty girls, later using k.o. pills to raid them for their Rolexes.

Of course all of them are without papers and maybe some of them end up in the mentioned shopping center.

[drainaps]

Bayerische, Thanks for your support. Exactly as you describe.

I have been living for 6 years in Asia now and most AD "in the west" look like a kitchen equipment shop compared to Asian ADs. Entry-level SS galore, truffled with the occasional precious metal piece to create a pretty sight in the display window and keep the dealership alive.

I have had my share of ADs in the West, full of pompous guys who take their job pompously. The guy running that Thai shop was seriously overweight, would not wear a tie or long- sleeve shirt unless you put a gun to his head, and will eat noodles off a paper cup behind his counter..... Not your typical Western Rolex AD employee. I could not care less ( and he cares even less).

Guys please wake up. Jakarta might sound like a girlie destination with cheap booze for some of us half a world away. Many pics / forums describe the delights of Bangkok's red light districts...... No Rolex but fake Rolex.......Please wake up, and enter the 21st century.

Rolex keeps raising prices not because of flat markets in brain-dead Europe or ERish US, but thanks to the Thai, Indonesian and Chinese buying by the bucketload.

Raising prices in Europe or the US I guess it's mostly to discourage those same Chinese or Indonesian from taking a first-class ticket with their mistress, book themselves in the Crillon in Paris or the Dorchester in London,and go buy their hardware on Bond Street or Place Vendôme, paying cash and negotiating a volume discount like there was no tomorrow ( not asking for one means you are a softie, not that you cannot pay your watch upfront). Credit card you say? Bank of China, unlimited. Gold or platinum card of course, Visa's marketing savvy also works here).

Stainless steel Ceramic Sub you say? That will not beat one single eyelid in a posh party in Shanghai or Jakarta. Limited-edition gold Panerai? Gosh, you are starting to show some face here. But that's the only decent watch you have? You're back to square one.

The Rolexes were real, I own "the necessary number of pieces " to know what I'm talking about (no bragging here or I will lose my credibility). I find it sad that some of us are so naive to think that any new or second hand watch not bought in Palm Beach, Rodeo Drive or New England and not sold by a patronizing guy with a jacket and tie is a fake. And yes, I am sure that some of the rolexes I saw will end on EBay in Europe or the US, and landing in a place near you.... With someone smiling ( and rightly so) about the watch of their dreams.

Enjoy your day and please visit Asia soon.... You are in for an electroshock.

Originally Posted by bayerische

MBK is a huge high-end shopping center.

The "normal" watch stores in Bangkok blows away most high-end watch stores in Europe and USA.

So it's very much a "stereotype" to claim it would be fake watches, or you wouldn't know what you are getting.

What about the over the counter sellers in a US mall, say Sawgrass mills in Florida? Not many papers and box Rolex's there either.

Sure, there's a lot of franken watches around, but having even my amount of Rolex knowledge, I would be comfortable to buy from a store like that.

[adt]

i live in asia and been to mah boon krong (MBK) many times. its actually known to have lots of knockoff products. but at the same time a lot of genuine stores as well, it is a huge mix of products due to the size of the place.

where is the store and sorry for asking again, but was "everything" genuine? or something like 50/50?

i may be going to bangkok soon.

[arttay10]

I think having a trusted local guide or someone with the right knowledge of where to go is 'key'.

No matter what country you live in - in your in the know... you will always find bargains to be had...

[akiruno]

drainaps
Well put...Thank you

adt
I'll be in BBK late Nov, how about you?

[Java]

Originally Posted by drainaps

Good morning,

Spent a few days last week in a business conference in Bangkok. As the conference came to a closing..... I googled BKK Vintage and here is what happened.

Went to a big middle of the road shopping centre by the name of MBK. On the 3 floor, there are quite a few watch traders. I spent quite some time at one of them, which was particularly busy.

To one side of the shop, there was a Pakistani gentleman sitting at a table with one Thai gentleman and ome of Japanese origin ( did learnt it afterwards, not at first sight). The Pakistani gentleman travels the world trading in second hand Rolex, mainly buying from pawn shops in places like Thailand ( some owned by the Thai gentleman at the table) and selling in Dubai and China ( and had the wads of cash in an unassuming paper bag to prove his credentials).

Guys, what a sight. The Thai pawn shop owner got watch after watch from his unassuming black nylon bag. All in plastic pouches, no box or papers. The Pakistani negotiated over the counter in groups of 3/4 watches. He was mainly interested in gold and SS/ Gold models, as these seem to go well with his Middle East and Chinese customers. Prices were...... Well, breathtakingly low. Just as an example, a gold president switched hands for the equivalent of EUR 6,000. Middle of the road Gold/SS traded for around 1,500- 2000 EUR. The buyer just handled every piece for a few secs, mostly looking at how worn down the bracelet was and, voilà, on to the next.

Before you guys believe it was a setup to make me buy something fake or overpriced, they clearly told me I was not a "dealer" and was not allowed to participate in the trade. In any case, the Thai seller did not trade in sports models, and these are the only rolexes I fancy.

After they finished their deal and something like 100K USD changed hands, the Pakistani gentleman told me that the cheapest brand new and second-hand Rolexes at this point in time are in Thailand, and on witnessing what I had witnessed, I fully believe him.

This gave me the opportunity to browse with them the second- hand counter in the shop where the trading was taking place, and I left with 2 Tag Aquaracers Calibre 5, in mint condition, w box and papers. One was the 300m aluminum bezel ( 700 EUR / 950 USD) and the second one a limited-edition 500m helium valve equipped Aquaracer for 1,100 EUR / 1,550 USD.

Not a bad afternoon in Bangkok after all, and all this without hitting any of the girlie bars downtown?

Enjoy your day.

I spend a lot of time in Bangkok mostly in Silom. However the scene you describe is not at all uncommon. I have seen , I believe, the very same at MBK. I will be back there again in a few weeks. There are similar dealings in Silom, the Gemstone area. However, in Thailand, caveat emptor rules. Particularly in purchasing gemstones, and I am sure equally with watches. Although I am sure all of the watches you speak of were the genuine article. I would wonder how many have been at some time the subject of an insurance claim.

[fusionstorm]

I've visited MBK several times whilst in Bangkok. Yes, there's plenty of knockoff shops. But there are hidden gems just like the OP is discussing.

Although I'm not sure that the Vintage forum is the best spot for this post, as the shops I saw there carried a far heavier inventory of modern Rolexes than vintage.

[Fin]

I would not consider MBK as "high-end shopping center" , like Gaysorn (e.g. Panerai shop) or WTC (now known as Central World).
Many vintage watch shops in Bangkok, also many in those (not Gaysorn). Thai people love Rolex and it is a status symbol for them to wear one. So, if You make business with thai people,You have much more credibility, if You wear a Rolex..

Usually dealers are friendly in those places, if You know them, but also very tired of tourists, who ask only copy-watch, and are suprised about real watch prices.

A lot of franken watches in Asia, aftermarket bracelets, aftermarket diamond dials and -bezels and so on. But most of those vintage are original and the dealers tell You usually, if any aftermarket parts (at least, if You have been talking with them often).

But I have seen also some vintage steel watches, that have been modified with aftermarket gold bezel and TT bracelet & crown etc..
I have been visiting Thailand "too often" and as I am interested in watches, have been talking with those dealers a lot. Nice people, always some of them offer You something to drink, even You not buy anything, and a lot of dealers from Europe and Japan go there to buy watches.
Many times I have seen cheaper watches in Scandinavia, if buy direct from the owner.

[drainaps]

Shop in question is VIRAT WATCH, on the 3rd floor, close to the entrance of the Tokyo Dept. store. Husband runs the Rolexes and APs, wife the "low-end" stuff ( Omega and Tag ) and son just tries to appear like he is busy and worth of his father trust. A few other similar places around.

Most of the second hand stuff was NOT vintage, but ALL of it was ORIGINAL. I own almost as many rolexes as fingers to know it ( I had to say it at last, looks like a guy in Thailand is there for either the fakes, the ladies, or both ).

If you still believe I was a tourist fresh off a 12 HR flight in coach, jet lagged and half-poisoned by cheap charter airline food and drink, and was misled by a few fakes, your call, and wish you a lot of luck with your next visit to an AD full of properly attired / patronizing / fake employees that will explain to you that yur dream watch is made of 904L stainless steel, an "almost magic" material, and that the one you want is "reserved" for another customer but that they can get you the last remaining one in another AD but only if you pay full price.

If that plays miracles to anybody's ego, I have nothing to say. I don't need that kind of "service" to buy an original one in a plastic bag ( I will ask for the case to be opened though, I do not have x-ray vision yet, and I might ask a couple of discreet questions around to fine tune the price), I don't make a living out of trading watches..... Yet

Good luck!

[Keeperoftime]

Sounds like an interesting time. I've seen unusual dealing at U.S shops. :)

[Mickey®]

Originally Posted by puffy

pics or you weren't in thailand

lol

+1

[drainaps]

Guys, guys, guys. I don't think the gentlemen playing Rolex poker would have appreciated any pics, while tens of thousands of USD changed hands...... without any invoices to be seen! Please be sensible. If you are thinking of another type of pics.... I'm afraid you are drawing a blank here....

Now that I think of it, I still cannot understand how they did allow me to watch the whole thing.... I know I have a pass as a friendly guy and am a reasonably knowledgeable collector, but this was really unusual. By the way , there were a few unassuming "Company employees" buzzing around us, so I am sure they would have set things straight should I have overstayed my welcome....

Originally Posted by Mickey®

pics or you weren't in Thailand
lol
+1

[Lamone]

Great post, thanks for the info

[Flyjet601]

Been to BKK many times myself and you have the same chance to get a real Rolex "on the street" so to speak as you do of picking up a real girl(especially if she has a deep voice)
So always check under the hood and assume nothing is as it seems.....

[SPARTAN2161]

Was 6000 EUR for a new President or vintage? If it was vintage i would say thats not much of a deal

[mikkolopez]

Yup seen this shop in Ma Boon Kung MBK. Just be careful dealing here some of the Rolexes have movements which have been replaced. Truth be told Bangkok RSC will not touch or open Rolexes bought from non Rolex AD in MBK. This was the experience of my Bangkok based colleagues. Maybe some are 100% genuine but some aren't. Just be careful.

[BKKJake]

Thanks for the info. I'll be back to BKK in about a month and I'm thinking of picking up a GMTc or a Panerai luminor. I know..completely different watches but I haven't decided yet.

Can anyone recommend a shop and an approx price from an AD for a new or lnib GMTc?

[cgjane]

Originally Posted by adt

how can you be sure they are all genuine?

Well if the "lady" has an adams apple...

[Alsey]

I thought I would add to this thread hopefully for the benefit of those that have never been to Bangkok and therefore maybe unaware of how things are here.

Most of the used watch shops will be as the op posted in the mbk centre. Many have been there a long time, some have a nice shop set up whereas a few are simply a glass counter on the side of the concourse,quite a suprise for first time viewers. These dealers have been there long before the high end malls were built.

If you buy a watch from them they will give you an invoice and generally agree to buy back it from you at say 15% discount or 10% for trade(this is for a rolex) other brands will vary. They only take cash.

If you sell a watch to them for cash they'll take a copy of your ID(if your a national) or passport and ithere'll be no invoice.

As far as I know there are no vintage dealers here, occasionally some of these shops may have a few older items. There are two shops I know of that have had a few 1680, 16660 and 1675's at times when I visited them.

Regarding my own dealings with these shops, I've only dealt once with the shop the op posted about, as recently as 2 wks ago I picked up a speedy pro iwith box and paers in a nice condition and [price. I've examined a number of rolex's and all appear genuine, some will have papers and others without. Who the sellers were is a mixed bag, could be locals or visitors hard up for wanting cash or a trade in. The man(husaband) always says hi and asks what I'm looking for as he has seen me buy several items from a nicely decked out shop about 10 yards away. My reason simply being that the other shop had what I was looking for and very helpful owner. Since that first time I've bought and sold with him several times. I asked him once if they ever open up a watch to check it's authenticty, he said no after about 20 yrs in this business I can just tell.

If Virat watches had a rolex I was interested in, I'd have no issues with buying from them.

About prices here, well I often check prices and they are never often better than here on trf.

If buying from an AD here, you'll only get about 7% sales tax rebate and infact the AD'S are only to be found in the high end malls, like Gaysorn, Paragon and central world.

I would say that buying anything expensive is about peace of mind, the last thing you want is to be on that plane going home thinking could this be a frankenwatch or a good copy etc. Only you know how you feel. I visit these shops often and feel comfortable with them. If you stayed here long enough you'd know what I mean. From my experience and dealings with 3 different shops I would say they in terms of integrity they all rank the same.(although I always go see my main man 1st).

[RAZZELL]

There were some nice watches in MBK in September. The ones I saw were not particularly cheap.


RAZZ

[hatidua]

Buying in Asia, be it Thailand/HK/QL/S'Pore/JKT/RP/Etc. is NOT for amateurs unless you want to eventually (or instantly) get burned badly. When I've bought Rolex's in Asia, I had the luxury of living there long-term and researching the seller over time. Flying in for a week and buying some Swiss watches in plastic baggies is an eventual recipe for disaster for most consumers.

There seems to be the implication by some that "Asia is different, because of gazillions of authentic Rolex watches here, there isn't the risk of fakes here". WRONG - the best counterfeit watches in the world are from Asia!

There is no free lunch, it matters not whether discussing hawker centres in S'Pore, sattay in Yogya, or churros in Tulum.

[Java]

Originally Posted by RAZZELL

There were some nice watches in MBK in September. The ones I saw were not particularly cheap.


RAZZ

I am frequently in MBK I was there in October. There are some very experienced dealers with some very fine and genuine watches. By and large they are about 10 to 15 % more expensive than the equivalent here in the UK. For that reason alone, I have never bought from them. I am also frequently in China and I find there too the prices are a little high.

[GeoGio Greece]

I had never being in Bangkok and I think I will never be. But I share your new purchase joy and wish you ENJOY !!