Gilt 5513. Relumed?

[lsavoldi]

Saw this on an auction at e-bay. I am not an expert but the markers seem to have been relumed, especially the 3,6,7,9 and 12 markers.
What do you guys think?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare...t_18023wt_1396

[SubKing]

I have purchased watches from Mark in the past. He only sells top notch stuff. You can trust him. if he says their not relumed then their not. he has too good of a rep to screw someone over on a relumed dial..

[Paul]

I can't help you regarding the dial's originality but you may like to read this link.


http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=199507r

The links posted by our friend conrail (good guy) may be of interest to you.

[SubKing]

that is a real shock to me, never knew of any of that...

so what you're saying is he made fake papers to sell along with a real rolex watch?
thats sad.

at the end of the day, He is in california, if he sends you a fake, dispute it and sue him.. not like he isn't local..

he still has nice stuff, but I have learned in the watch world, people you least expect can be liars.. its esp worse for those who buy vintage, which gives a very very small window of actual good sellers, but IMOH the better the seller, I notice they charge alot more than other sellers.

[Frogman4me]

Mark has been off my list of dealers I recommend or use.

[toph]

i would not touch anything he sells. i contacted him many times about his questionable listings, papers, originality, always to get an inadequate response
beware

[patina]

I do not know this person Mark but I see nothing gilt on that dial as the text and minute markers are all in white.

[SubKing]

Here is my thing, if mark is that bad of a guy, then how has he managed to get over a thousand feedback, all positive, and all high dollar vintage watch sales for the past few years with a clean eBay track record.. I can't speak for deals on vrf... Only for what I see on eBay.

I can also speak for what he has sold me in the past and it was exactly as advertised

[Paul]

Mark has many satisfied customers who have purchased from him over the years - seems he usually gets it right in his dealings.


The problem for me is that when doubt was raised a few months back about the papers that accompany (many of) his watches, Mark chose not to offer any explanation.


Of particular concern were documented instances where watches that had passed through several owners without papers were suddenly being marketed with papers. Many folk will pay a premium for a watch with papers but the legitimacy of the papers is paramount.


As I understand it, to this day Mark has maintained complete silence since fairly serious allegations of impropriety were leveled at him.


I'm a great fan of the innocent until proven guilty premise. When Mark fronts up with a valid explanation I'll happily add him back to my "good guy" list.
He has some nice stock at times but this hobby is too expensive to not have absolutely certainty of a sellers credentials

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Paul

Mark has many satisfied customers who have purchased from him over the years - seems he usually gets it right in his dealings.


The problem for me is that when doubt was raised a few months back about the papers that accompany (many of) his watches, Mark chose not to offer any explanation.


Of particular concern were documented instances where watches that had passed through several owners without papers were suddenly being marketed with papers. Many folk will pay a premium for a watch with papers but the legitimacy of the papers is paramount.


As I understand it, to this day Mark has maintained complete silence since fairly serious allegations of impropriety were leveled at him.


I'm a great fan of the innocent until proven guilty premise. When Mark fronts up with a valid explanation I'll happily add him back to my "good guy" list.
He has some nice stock at times but this hobby is too expensive to not have absolutely certainty of a sellers credentials

I agree with what you said paul.
i remember a few months ago when I was speaking with Mark over the phone, I asked him if he ever posts on VRF/TRF, I remember him saying he didn't like the forums very much anymore because he was fed up with vintage collectors always adding their 2cents and making people feel bad about their watches over the most tiny little things... In a way I knew and understood exactly what he was saying, because at times, i too think there are people out there who are just too harsh and rude when people try to share a watch they love, someone will just out right attack the piece and say how this and that is wrong etc.. Its okay if someone asks members what they think of it, but not when they just want to share it.. I think tho some have been more aware of that and I notice how it's a bit more friendly these days. But at a time, it had got real bad, i myself got fed up..

Again, this is before I knew anything about these papers that mark was cought in the middle in...

i see two sides, One side is, he was cought buying antique stamping devices and he had a watch with box and papers for sale that didn't used to have papers as per the original owners... but then again, How do they know its the same exact watch? did Mark or the old owners provide the serial numbers? On the other side, I could easily see how Mark could have gotten offended by everyone attacking him. Maybe he felt he didnt have to explain himself to any of these people so instead chose to take the high road and ignore them and stop selling on forums..

At times, i myself have gotten fed up and im not really a seller.. some people go over board on the things they say.

Yes some of the stuff above I read about Mark does seem odd and shocking to me, but, what hard evidence are people going on here? He had told me over the phone he likes collecting old antique watch tools and things, so for him to buy stamps or old pressure testers etc isnt a bad thing..

You know, i feel this day and age it's so hard to please people, wheres selling something as advertised isn't enough.. it's so hard to sell vintage watches and it is also so hard to buy them to. so many little things to watch out for..

Personally, with how many happy customers and nice watches Mark has sold, Is it really worth it for him to fake papers and ruin his rep over papers? He's local in the USA and doing local deals mostly, does he really want to run the risk of getting sued?

People feel they were owed an explanation, Maybe Mark feels he doesn't owe anyone anything. He chose to stay out of the line of fire in several attacks that were being made to him, maybe he felt no matter what he said, members would just attack him more... forum drama can get really bad. i have seen it happen too many times. it can be like grade school at times, yet were all adults..

The best i can say is, Mark isn't my friend, He is just someone who i have wired money to and gotten exactly what was promised.

Now, instead of reading investigational work from members, if there was a customer he actually stiffed over big time, I would love to read about it and hear what they have to say. But as of right now, i kinda feel for the guy. But that could obviously all change if I actually spoke with someone or read about someone who got screwed, then I would prob not deal with him again thats for sure.

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by SubKing

but then again, How do they know its the same exact watch? did Mark or the old owners provide the serial numbers?.

The history of that watch and the hands it passed through were documented

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by CaveDiver

The history of that watch and the hands it passed through were documented

Regardless, if they didn't get the serial number from mark, then there is no proof yet so they can match it up to make sure it's the same watch... plain and simple. at that point, it is just speculation IMO

[CaveDiver]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Regardless, if they didn't get the serial number from mark, then there is no proof yet so they can match it up to make sure it's the same watch... plain and simple. at that point, it is just speculation IMO

think of it more in the terms preponderance of the evidence

[springer]

Comexfan, tread carefully, very carefully with Lerman.

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by patina

I do not know this person Mark but I see nothing gilt on that dial as the text and minute markers are all in white.

x2.... the ad is unbelievably wrong. I would be wary to buy anything from Mark.

[patina]

Sold at $9,500 .. buyer just bought himself a very expensive non-gilt dial 5513.

[Kingair]

Originally Posted by patina

Sold at $9,500 .. buyer just bought himself a very expensive non-gilt dial 5513.

If he is satisfied with this 5513 . . .
Great for the buyer ;-)
Could have been a 1680 Sub . . . . for this price

HANW

[adam78]

Originally Posted by patina

Sold at $9,500 .. buyer just bought himself a very expensive non-gilt dial 5513.

I also thought this was white printing, except in a couple of the photos, where it appeared slightly gilty.

A much better gilt example is this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rare...item2c649a74de