Independents

[jerseyden]

I find I am being pulled towards small independent watchmakers such as Dornbluth, Gerber and Speake-Marin. While they produce some fantastic watches I am concerned that as soon as I take the watch out of the box I am halving the value. I know no watch, or very very few, can be seen as an investment, but I would like something back if I ever decide to sell. The used market in these pieces seems almost non existant. In a perfect world, watches should be like pieces of art, primarily to be enjoyed but it is not a perfect world. What is a boy to do?

[mfer]

My largest fear with independents is the future longevity of the company. If the company closes down, you could be left with a paper weight or a boat (a thing you throw money in to fix).

[WatchTimes]

Originally Posted by mfer

My largest fear with independents is the future longevity of the company. If the company closes down, you could be left with a paper weight or a boat (a thing you throw money in to fix).

I agree it is a concern but there are just certain pieces I have not been able to get my mind off.

Dornbluth being one and the second is the MIH watch which I already own.

I have owned a couple of Gerber's pieces and they are very nice.

Another indi watch I own is the PITA Oceana, really a unique dive watch!

[sierra11b]

Originally Posted by mfer

My largest fear with independents is the future longevity of the company. If the company closes down, you could be left with a paper weight or a boat (a thing you throw money in to fix).

I disagree and gave this a lot of thought in my deciding Dornbluth.

I think that, depending on the complexity of the movement used by an independent, you'd be more likely to be left with a paper weight with the bigger companies, especially if major brands keep going the direction of eliminating independent watchmakers parts accounts. Dirk has a year waiting list so unless he gets sick or passes away with nobody to take the helm, business is good. And because he uses the venerable Unitas 6498 base with no shortage of parts, my children will be likely to find parts. If there's no watchmaker around with the ability to decorate said parts to match (like RGM), then they'll have a decorated movement with one undecorated part, but a working watch nonetheless.

For examples of the big fish, my Grand Seiko has a 9S movement and despite the fact GS states a decade parts guarantee covering the watch, let's say 30 years tops for the venerable 9S movement alone as it's in a nearly all their current mechanical GS movements. They already don't service many early GSs due to lack of parts and many have learned this the hard way (I can link a couple threads from another forum). You can only get GS service in Japan which is impeccable so long as they have parts.

Rolex is the same way granted they'll guarantee service further compared to GS. I think the difference is that Rolex simply produces tons more of a model and can guarantee cosmetic parts whereas GS changes models frequently with the same movements but cannot guarantee cosmetic parts beyond 10 years because of the model's expiration. I don't have my pulse directly on independent makers and their current Rolex parts status, but I'd be willing to bet servicing a 1675 today will be easier than servicing my 216570 when Rolex refuses to do so anymore. Companies like JLC are creating their own little monopoly by completely cutting off independent makers accts, so if they do service an old watch it will be on their terms and likely for more than the watch is worth (many current accounts of this if you search). Otherwise, they will simply refuse due to lack of parts and you're really left stranded with a paper weight.

[Young Connoisseur]

But who will know how to service a movement that there were only say, 20 of?


De Bethune/Journe/Dufour watches may have a VERY small amount of parts in existance for even right this moment.


What if they pack up shop?


Custom fabricated parts might be expensive...

Originally Posted by sierra11b

I disagree and gave this a lot of thought in my deciding Dornbluth.

I think that, depending on the complexity of the movement used by an independent, you'd be more likely to be left with a paper weight with the bigger companies, especially if major brands keep going the direction of eliminating independent watchmakers parts accounts. Dirk has a year waiting list so unless he gets sick or passes away with nobody to take the helm, business is good. And because he uses the venerable Unitas 6498 base with no shortage of parts, my children will be likely to find parts. If there's no watchmaker around with the ability to decorate said parts to match (like RGM), then they'll have a decorated movement with one undecorated part, but a working watch nonetheless.

For examples of the big fish, my Grand Seiko has a 9S movement and despite the fact GS states a decade parts guarantee covering the watch, let's say 30 years tops for the venerable 9S movement alone as it's in a nearly all their current mechanical GS movements. They already don't service many early GSs due to lack of parts and many have learned this the hard way (I can link a couple threads from another forum). You can only get GS service in Japan which is impeccable so long as they have parts.

Rolex is the same way granted they'll guarantee service further. I don't have my pulse directly on independent makers and their current Rolex parts status, but I'd be willing to bet servicing a 1675 today will be easier than servicing my 216570 when Rolex refuses to do so anymore. Companies like JLC are creating their own little monopoly by completely cutting off independent makers accts, so if they do service an old watch it will be on their terms and likely for more than the watch is worth (many current accounts of this if you search). Otherwise, they will simply refuse due to lack of parts and you're really left stranded with a paper weight.

[sierra11b]

Originally Posted by Young Connoisseur

But who will know how to service a movement that there were only say, 20 of?

De Bethune/Journe/Dufour watches may have a VERY small amount of parts in existance for even right this moment.

What if they pack up shop?

Custom fabricated parts might be expensive...

Custom fabricated parts will be expensive regardless of whether or not an independent closes shop or if a major brand simply refuses to service a watch with no independent repair shops with parts in sight.

Servicing a watch there's only twenty of may be a problem and especially if it has complications. If the movement is a low beat with parts similar to an old pocket watch, then there's still plenty of vintage pocket watches working and being serviced today. Trick is to keep up with preventative maintenance so that no major parts need replacing and do not abuse the piece.

In the case of Dornbluth, if any maker has a problem servicing a Unitas base then my watch won't be serviced there from the start.

Bottom line is nothing lasts forever...

[slcbbrown]

Originally Posted by sierra11b

I disagree and gave this a lot of thought in my deciding Dornbluth.

I think that, depending on the complexity of the movement used by an independent, you'd be more likely to be left with a paper weight with the bigger companies, especially if major brands keep going the direction of eliminating independent watchmakers parts accounts. Dirk has a year waiting list so unless he gets sick or passes away with nobody to take the helm, business is good. And because he uses the venerable Unitas 6498 base with no shortage of parts, my children will be likely to find parts. If there's no watchmaker around with the ability to decorate said parts to match (like RGM), then they'll have a decorated movement with one undecorated part, but a working watch nonetheless.

For examples of the big fish, my Grand Seiko has a 9S movement and despite the fact GS states a decade parts guarantee covering the watch, let's say 30 years tops for the venerable 9S movement alone as it's in a nearly all their current mechanical GS movements. They already don't service many early GSs due to lack of parts and many have learned this the hard way (I can link a couple threads from another forum). You can only get GS service in Japan which is impeccable so long as they have parts.

Rolex is the same way granted they'll guarantee service further compared to GS. I think the difference is that Rolex simply produces tons more of a model and can guarantee cosmetic parts whereas GS changes models frequently with the same movements but cannot guarantee cosmetic parts beyond 10 years because of the model's expiration. I don't have my pulse directly on independent makers and their current Rolex parts status, but I'd be willing to bet servicing a 1675 today will be easier than servicing my 216570 when Rolex refuses to do so anymore. Companies like JLC are creating their own little monopoly by completely cutting off independent makers accts, so if they do service an old watch it will be on their terms and likely for more than the watch is worth (many current accounts of this if you search). Otherwise, they will simply refuse due to lack of parts and you're really left stranded with a paper weight.

And, I agree. If you are talking about a watch built around a reworked 6497/8 or other ETA movement, parts won't be a problem, but that isn't the same class as Speake Marin. Many if not all of the boutique watchmakers can have the same problem with inhouse movements-- no parts or service easily available because they sell so few watches. If a watch is independent and complicated, it's typical to ship it back to the factory where only one or two watchmakers can actually work on it. Just something to keep in mind.

I believe Maurice Lacroix is still independent.

[sierra11b]

Nomos is another independent that I have always had an interest in but never pulled the trigger. They are a young and aspiring company that I love to watch grow. My only gripe with them is that they do too many limited edition watches instead of more innovation.