Sub next but 1680 or 5512/3?

[Time Exposure]

I was surprised my search on the topic didn't produce any results. I want a Sub with a matte black dial and no white gold marker surrounds. I like both models with or without date. Which do you prefer and why (if possible to explain?)
I like a date feature (great crutch when I'm too lazy to look at my phone). But the no-date seems more...iconic.

Thoughts?

[Michael M.]

I've owned 2-3 5513's and a few 1680's. My favorite would be a Meters First 5513 in Minty condition, a very undervalued watch IMO!

Here's my current 1680, but I long for my old 5513 that I sold to a forumer

[Tudor66]

I have similar, less expensive version of the watches on your list.
A 1966 Tudor sub, which is similar to a 5513, it has the matte dial, the only downside is the lack of the date which I use pretty regularly.
A 16800 matte dial submariner- this one has the date, it's newer, dead on accurate.

The 1680 has a huge following here, I've tried on several, they are great, someday I hope to add one to the collection...

[mrarchiegoodwin]

Time Exposure: I think that's a very good question because I have been considering the same thing for almost a month. Started by searching for a 5513 meters first and encountering 5512. Considered the 5512 because of nostalgic associations. However I could not tell the difference between the two. Then realizing I use my watch's date function (similar to Tudor66 I refer to the date almost daily) I figure the 5512 would be inconvenient for everyday use.

So I looked at the 1680 with its date function. I could not decide between the red or white. I know red is supposed to be more "interesting" but I like the anonymity of the white version--I prize innocuousness. The only aspect of the 1680 I did not like was the cyclops lens. To me it compromised the watch's understatement and symmetry.

Cyclops-averse I was pleased to stumble upon the 1665 because it looks like a 5513 with a date (and no magnification). Again, I have been debating between red or white. I haven't even considered the subsequent debate between the price and my bank balance.

But now I see Michael M's red 1680 meters first and there's no cyclops. It looks more "balanced" to me. Is the omission of the cyclops because it's a meters first? I don't recall even seeing a meters first 1680. Back to the internet classroom.

Fascinating.

[Time Exposure]

I think the no-date (no Cyclops) crystal from the 5513 fits the 1680. If I'm mistaken here, I do know the 1680 had a cyclops when it left Bienne. I'm with you, I like the date but not the magnifier. However, I'd rather have a "correct"example.

The only reason I won't get a 1665 is they're too pricey. It was actually my first Rolex: I bought it as an 8-yr old used Sea-Dweller in 1989 for $855. It was my favorite of over a dozen Rolexes since and I can't touch them now.

As for Red Dial Subs: Very high "cool" factor but not justified
by the price difference IMHO.

[high5]

Does 1680 have quick set? If not, is it your only wear your are going to wear until you are tired of it? If not, will it wear the watch parts out every time you adjust the date via the minutes hand?

[Clay]

How about Great White 1665???

[Time Exposure]

Love the Great White, but see above. I would wear the Sub in rotation, so yeah the whole non-quickset date is a turnoff.

I'm leaning toward 5512/3. I also looked at a new one tonight at an AD. $6,300! Price okay, but lacks the soul of a matte black, no white metal surrounds-dial.

[Time Exposure]

What was the last reference of the matte black, no date Subs?

[high5]

5513 maxi dial type v.

[Beef]

I have a 5513 MK V and 2 1680's, both red and white. The white has a service replacement dial. The 5513 still has a pretty good glow on the old lume. The 1680 Red is a safe queen, pretty much. No quick set on the 1680s. So I wait until its about the date on the watch to set it. I check the date on my phone when I wear the 5513. That's a once a day thing, no big deal. There's no way to go wrong with any of them. I totally agree on the lack of soul in the new models! Daily wear 1680: white. I'd feel guilty banging around a red. If only because of the price difference. 5513, no worries at all.

[mrarchiegoodwin]

Originally Posted by Beef

I have a 5513 MK V and 2 1680's, both red and white. The white has a service replacement dial. The 5513 still has a pretty good glow on the old lume. The 1680 Red is a safe queen, pretty much. No quick set on the 1680s. So I wait until its about the date on the watch to set it. I check the date on my phone when I wear the 5513. That's a once a day thing, no big deal. There's no way to go wrong with any of them. I totally agree on the lack of soul in the new models! Daily wear 1680: white. I'd feel guilty banging around a red. If only because of the price difference. 5513, no worries at all.

Thanks to everybody for these posts!

Can you elaborate on "lack of soul in the new models" because I sense it, but don't understand it.

After reading these posts I became concerned about the vintage checklist: over-polished case, skinny lugs, incorrect numbers, incorrect dial, uneven patina, patina itself, substitutions made by Rolex during service, non-original bracelet, lack of papers. Wouldn't it be easier to buy, say, a 16600 instead of a 1665? The new watch would be cheaper AND eventually it will become an old watch (but will it become a vintage watch?).

Still learning.

[Beef]

Originally Posted by mrarchiegoodwin

Thanks to everybody for these posts!

Can you elaborate on "lack of soul in the new models" because I sense it, but don't understand it.

After reading these posts I became concerned about the vintage checklist: over-polished case, skinny lugs, incorrect numbers, incorrect dial, uneven patina, patina itself, substitutions made by Rolex during service, non-original bracelet, lack of papers. Wouldn't it be easier to buy, say, a 16600 instead of a 1665? The new watch would be cheaper AND eventually it will become an old watch (but will it become a vintage watch?).

Still learning.

Well, Arch, what follows is only my opinion. Most people on this forum have one and they widely differ. This sub-forum has some of the most learned people in the vintage world ( I am not one) and most of those are purists. I am not one of those, either. I have seeked out Rolexes that have been restored, to include replacement dials. I buy 90%+ of my watches to wear. A restored watch is more functional, it keeps better time and the lume glows. Most importantly, it still retains its SOUL. To me soul is NOT a maxi case, white gold surrounds, polished center links and should not look too much like it looks like it was made from Legos. It should be a something that you could see in a 1960's movie or on the wrist of members of an Everest expedition or MACV SOG recon guy. It should exude classic ruggedness of days gone by when a Rolex was a trusted tool, not a status symbol.

[mrarchiegoodwin]

Originally Posted by Beef

Well, Arch, what follows is only my opinion. Most people on this forum have one and they widely differ. This sub-forum has some of the most learned people in the vintage world ( I am not one) and most of those are purists. I am not one of those, either. I have seeked out Rolexes that have been restored, to include replacement dials. I buy 90%+ of my watches to wear. A restored watch is more functional, it keeps better time and the lume glows. Most importantly, it still retains its SOUL. To me soul is NOT a maxi case, white gold surrounds, polished center links and should not look too much like it looks like it was made from Legos. It should be a something that you could see in a 1960's movie or on the wrist of members of an Everest expedition or MACV SOG recon guy. It should exude classic ruggedness of days gone by when a Rolex was a trusted tool, not a status symbol.

Beef, thank you for elaborating.

I'm in agreement with you and share the same policy. Unless the watch is dainty (such as PVD) or historic (maybe that's another version of dainty) I buy my watches to wear.

Also you have made me wonder if I have the same motivation. Most of my watches are not old (except 2 military IWCs I got via internet--yuck). My "old" IWC MkXII began to not feel vintage to me so I began looking at 5513s.

Perhaps what I have really been searching for is the ineffable "aura" of the 1960s and, of course, the 16600 will not provide that.

Again, thank you.

RC (sounds like Archie)

[high5]

Iwc mk xii is a very nice watch in any way you look at it except perhaps it's size. It may not have as many fans as the sub but it is in no way inferior to anything else. Have you ever tried to find a mk 9?

The Matt/gilt face sub has much more characters than the new ones in my opinion. The white gold surround markers makes it way too unisex, which is great for rolex as it enlarges it's audience by two fold.

[mrarchiegoodwin]

Originally Posted by high5

Iwc mk xii is a very nice watch in any way you look at it except perhaps it's size. It may not have as many fans as the sub but it is in no way inferior to anything else. Have you ever tried to find a mk 9?

The Matt/gilt face sub has much more characters than the new ones in my opinion. The white gold surround markers makes it way too unisex, which is great for rolex as it enlarges it's audience by two fold.

Thank you for the assurance about the MkXII. I have worn it 90% of the time for the past 14 years (perhaps longer). I have a skinny wrist so it's not diminutive on me. By chance I got a MkIX and MkX and they are tiny! Someday I will encounter a MkXI, but probably in China.

I too prefer the appearance of the matt dial. I'm not sure what a gilt dial is. It's not what I thought--the dial with markers surrounded by shiny metal outlines.

I did not think there would be so much to learn, but vintage Rolexes are a mine field for the novice. Time for me to buy the book.

Thanks, again.

Best wishes.

RC

[high5]

I learn a lot from this forum， a lot of hardcore here

I also find it very helpful to visit vintage stores， a lot of stores owners and salespeople are collectors or fans themselves and happy to talk to me and share their knowledge

[high5]

Those mk ix and x u have are treasures

[high5]

Gilt dial is even older than matt and require even more attention， they are THE vintage watches， many vintage fans consider matt dial as middle level and gilt is high level• An example of gilt dial is 6538， check the web for its look

[mrarchiegoodwin]

Originally Posted by high5

I learn a lot from this forum， a lot of hardcore here

I also find it very helpful to visit vintage stores， a lot of stores owners and salespeople are collectors or fans themselves and happy to talk to me and share their knowledge

High5, you can visit vintage stores because you are in the midst of watch central. Once I met friends from Europe there and we got together with someone from a watch forum. We invited him to lunch and he brought 4 unusual watches and then took us to his favorite shop where everyone was knowledgable. My friends were astonished. I love Hong Kong.

[high5]

Originally Posted by mrarchiegoodwin

High5, you can visit vintage stores because you are in the midst of watch central. Once I met friends from Europe there and we got together with someone from a watch forum. We invited him to lunch and he brought 4 unusual watches and then took us to his favorite shop where everyone was knowledgable. My friends were astonished. I love Hong Kong.

Yes， it is indeed quite nice， but there are also many fake or franken watches around， so it is very important to buy the seller

[Time Exposure]

Originally Posted by high5

Gilt dial is even older than matt and require even more attention， they are THE vintage watches， many vintage fans consider matt dial as middle level and gilt is high level• An example of gilt dial is 6538， check the web for its look

Gosh! Those don't even have shoulder guards for that huuuuge crown! FORGET IT! ;)

I imagine those sell well over $5-$6K?

[high5]

more like 30k+

[Time Exposure]

So, for a matte black dial, no white gold surrounds, no date Sub, is the 5513 the last reference? Or was there another before the shiny dials came out? I guess my actual question is: what is the most reasonably-priced matte dial no date Sub to look for?

[high5]

yes, it is the last reference. But please be careful, it had changed to white gold surround at mid 80. Also, replacement dial of 5513 had since been white gold surround.

There are many varieties of 5513 matt dials: for example, meter first, serif, pre-comex, maxi 1 to 5. They are all matt dials. They prices can be different by 1.5k. As in any vintage watches, condition is everything.

It's currrent price is about 5 to 6k usd. you can find some in the for sales section here.

[mike]

Originally Posted by high5

Does 1680 have quick set? If not, is it your only wear your are going to wear until you are tired of it? If not, will it wear the watch parts out every time you adjust the date via the minutes hand?

No it doesn't. While the 1680 introduced the date function to the submariner line, features like the quickset, 120 click ratching bezel, and 3xxx fast beat movement made their debut on the reference 16800.

[Vincent65]

[mrarchiegoodwin]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

Vincent:

I'm encouraged to see this is your daily watch. Beautiful details. Great incentive for finding the right one. Thanks for sharing.

RC

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by mrarchiegoodwin

Vincent:

I'm encouraged to see this is your daily watch. Beautiful details. Great incentive for finding the right one. Thanks for sharing.

RC

My pleasure Archie - they were built to be worn and built to last!
Good luck with your quest, and I look forward to seeing the result soon!

[RC2]

The 1680 with a tropic 19 crystal