Why would a new watch not have all papers?

[bycrom]

I am looking for my second Rolex, and check out TRF selling items daily. There is a thread active right now "Stolen Rolex serial number database" that makes me cautious to buy used unless all papers come with the deal.

I can not figure out why any watch would not have all papers/box/etc included in the sale? That right there is a flag IMHO, and right now I would not consider that offer.

Am I being over cautious? Is there a valid good reason other then the original owner, for some crazy reason, tossing these items in the trash when they first bought them?

Thanks in advance.

[RolexDivers]

You know some people actually throw away the papers and the boxes, just as though they were peeled off stickers! I can't beleive it.

I would stay away from a watch with incomplete or missing paperwork -- there are way too many complete watch sets out there waiting to be bought.

Stolen watches ofcourse do not have paperwork but not having paperwork dos not mean it is stolen but it is suspect and I would walk away no matter how sweet the deal might be.

You are not being overcautious. You are being a smart buyer. Later down the road, if there is a SELL time, you are gonna have a hard time selling your watch or justifying to the next buyer why you do not have paperwork .... many buyers are ok with missing paperwork but they would want a pretty hefty discount. So the missing paperwork can
come back and bite you where the sun doesn't shine...

[dman]

Originally Posted by bycrom

I am looking for my second Rolex, and check out TRF selling items daily. There is a thread active right now "Stolen Rolex serial number database" that makes me cautious to buy used unless all papers come with the deal.

I can not figure out why any watch would not have all papers/box/etc included in the sale? That right there is a flag IMHO, and right now I would not consider that offer.

Am I being over cautious? Is there a valid good reason other then the original owner, for some crazy reason, tossing these items in the trash when they first bought them?

Thanks in advance.

I have seen people literally buy a watch from an AD and not take any of the boxes or papers from the store. Lots of different reasons for them not being with the watch but like you said, could be a red flag. The saying seems like it gets old but again it goes back to buying the seller as much as the watch. Keep in mind that if you like to flip or trade that not having full package hurts your resell value as well.
Happy hunting!

[NYMike]

Box is worthless and can be bought on Ebay or anywhere else. The papers are just warranty papers and expire pretty quickly. In the old days the papers had a ton of info, with signatures of testers and a detail on the COSC test. today it's just a form. Most people who buy watches who are not enthusiast don't really care much about the box.
Consider this, do you keep computer boxes, tv boxes, shoe boxes, audio equipment boxes, camera boxes? Plenty of camera's cost thousands. I don't see people caring much about those boxes.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by bycrom

Why would a new watch not have all papers?

Because the AD did not give them to you.

Beyond that, no watch is "new" and as already pointed out some people do not care about papers or boxes. If a watch is being sold into the secondary market without these items it is most certainly not new.

[BCNJ]

I rarely look at the paperwork and could care less about the box. the only reason to keep them for me is to make resale easier.

[bycrom]

Thanks guys, this is why I love this forum.

[Rocco22]

Cause people lose them.just like they lose a box.shit happens.ive boughten many watches without box an or papers,usually gets nice discount.

[imwatchingu]

I would be suspicious and probably steer clear if the seller is claiming to be selling a brand new unworn watch without those items.

As for a used watch, I have personally witnessed my brother trade his watch off on a whim in Las Vegas to an AD without providing the box and papers making that watch boxless in the market.

As I have read and learned on this forum, buy the seller for a more care free experience.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by bycrom

I am looking for my second Rolex, and check out TRF selling items daily. There is a thread active right now "Stolen Rolex serial number database" that makes me cautious to buy used unless all papers come with the deal.

I can not figure out why any watch would not have all papers/box/etc included in the sale? That right there is a flag IMHO, and right now I would not consider that offer.

Am I being over cautious? Is there a valid good reason other then the original owner, for some crazy reason, tossing these items in the trash when they first bought them?

Thanks in advance.

Well the so called papers or the box do not prove authenticity of any watch.With todays technology things like the so called papers/cards which in the real world are only a warranty paper/card valid now for two years.These items are a lot easier to fake than the actual watch, so never rely on any box or bit of paper or plastic card unless bought direct from AD or trusted source.

[RolexDivers]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well the so called papers or the box do not prove authenticity of any watch.With todays technology things like the so called papers/cards which in the real world are only a warranty paper/card valid now for two years.These items are a lot easier to fake than the actual watch, so never rely on any box or bit of paper or plastic card unless bought direct from AD or trusted source.

Very well said PADI ...seems that there are very few ironclad avenues left that can prove the authenticity of a watch...

[bridgs]

Does not make much sense that a Rolex would not have its box and papers. Like a car that does not have its owners manual in the glovebox. Sometimes there are divorces and fires which might be an excuse one might give for not having the goods or they just did not care as some have said. I would be more inclined to pursue watches with the box and papers which would indicate to me that the owner was caring and responsible.

[Chopped54]

Originally Posted by bridgs

Does not make much sense that a Rolex would not have its box and papers. Like a car that does not have its owners manual in the glovebox. Sometimes there are divorces and fires which might be an excuse one might give for not having the goods or they just did not care as some have said. I would be more inclined to pursue watches with the box and papers which would indicate to me that the owner was caring and responsible.

I buy and sell cars and you would be surprised how many do not have owners manuals, so that is not a valid analogy. Would be more on par as a car without a title, although a car without a title is worthless where the watch still retains value.

[Furbo]

Originally Posted by BCNJ

I rarely look at the paperwork and could care less about the box. the only reason to keep them for me is to make resale easier.

+1

I also have to safeguard that stupid box and all the paper crap because I will MAYBE sell my Rolex in the future.
Or maybe I'll have to prove that it's mine.
I haven't bought it with intention of selling it. Who does?

Rolex please deliver your watches in airtight plastic and nothing else. :) Warranty and everything else could be based on serial number.

[Tools]

The vast majority of watches for sale in the world do not have boxes or "papers".

It's a watch, like other items of clothing or jewelry, made to wear each day for decades.. Just like your wedding rings, shoes, and belts... Not many of those with boxes and "papers" hiding under the bed ether..

These "I gotta have...", and "I wouldn't buy without..." are a function of the armchair buyer who doesn't travel any further than the Internet..

[crowncollection]

papers mean nothing at the end of the day

[jolimont]

but they can add value to your watch

i prefer my watches to have papers, but its not a deal killer if the price is right

[bridgs]

bycrom, many people on this site do not care whether there is a box or papers with their watch possibly because they buy and sell used cars the same way they do their watches. If they get taken on a watch, besides taking legal action they can just chalk it up to, "that is the way the cookie crumbles". If you are someone who does not have a large cash flow, then you understand where I am coming from when I say this. It seems prudent to have some documentation even if in the end the paperwork is irrelevant due to being out of date or whatever. There is some value to it, if nothing more than peace of mind. When selling it, you can bet that an interested party will probably ask if there is a box and paperwork.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by bridgs

bycrom, many people on this site do not care whether there is a box or papers with their watch possibly because they buy and sell used cars the same way they do their watches. If they get taken on a watch, besides taking legal action they can just chalk it up to, "that is the way the cookie crumbles". If you are someone who does not have a large cash flow, then you understand where I am coming from when I say this. It seems prudent to have some documentation even if in the end the paperwork is irrelevant due to being out of date or whatever. There is some value to it, if nothing more than peace of mind. When selling it, you can bet that an interested party will probably ask if there is a box and paperwork.

Interesting how you attempt to insult TRF members as if they were ignorant children and imply that the legal title on a used car equates, even remotely, to sales paperwork for a watch.

No paper authenticates a watch unless it is commissioned and received by you and provided by a known expert.. Thousands of buyers are bilked annually by mistakenly believing that because a watch has paper, it must be genuine. Counterfeit paperwork and purchased "boxes and paper" are common on Internet watches specifically because con-men know that many buyers now very little about the actual product.

Condition of the watch should always be the driver when purchasing, not if it comes with a box and "papers". Papers that demonstrate provenance are nice-to-have. Not to prove authenticity, but to provide history for the watch - provided that the papers can be properly authenticated too.

[balla]

Originally Posted by jolimont

but they can add value to your watch

i prefer my watches to have papers, but its not a deal killer if the price is right

+1

[gregvisser]

Originally Posted by NYMike

Consider this, do you keep computer boxes, tv boxes, shoe boxes, audio equipment boxes, camera boxes? Plenty of camera's cost thousands. I don't see people caring much about those boxes.

I read this and now know I have problems: yes I still have the box my pc came in. It is 3 years old. Yes, I still have the box my last pair of sneakers came in. Yes, I still have the box my camera came in. Etc etc. No wonder I need a larger house!

If I didn't know better, I could be a hoarder.....

Greg

[T. Ferguson]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well the so called papers or the box do not prove authenticity of any watch.With todays technology things like the so called papers/cards which in the real world are only a warranty paper/card valid now for two years.These items are a lot easier to fake than the actual watch, so never rely on any box or bit of paper or plastic card unless bought direct from AD or trusted source.

This is a good point; hadn't thought of that. Though one would think that a Rolex with box and papers matching the watch would at least be less likely to have been stolen. My rationale is that counterfeit boxes and papers are probably more apt to be paired to a counterfeit Rolex than a stolen real one.

But given the ability to fake papers I suppose the best documentation for the watch would be a recent service receipt. Assuming the receipt is authentic it means Rolex has looked at the watch and considers it genuine.

Has anyone heard of counterfeit RSC papers?

[Tools]

Originally Posted by T. Ferguson

. . .
But given the ability to fake papers I suppose the best documentation for the watch would be a recent service receipt. Assuming the receipt is authentic it means Rolex has looked at the watch and considers it genuine.

Has anyone heard of counterfeit RSC papers?

We catch and ban sellers on a semi-regular basis here on the Forum for offering counterfeit papers, blank "papers" that are "95% equivalent" and other such nonsense..

There are Forums dedicated to fakes and fake papers, documents, and boxes..

If there's a market, there's a scam artist selling it - and Rolex is a worldwide market for counterfeiters in every aspect..

[Rock]

I'm meticulous in relation to record keeping and whilst I wouldn't keep packaging from everyday tools and appliances I would never discard materials that came with an expensive item like a Rolex or Mont Blanc pen etc.
I do understand that I am not typical of consumers in general however, and therefore do not expect that others will behave in a similar manner.
It is my choice however, as to whether I would buy a used item without papers, booklets, boxes etc., and as jolimont says, it would depend upon the price and a range of other factors. The reputation of the seller is everything and even well known businesses have been known to disappoint, as I have found to my detriment.

[bridgs]

Mr. Tools, Don't get yourself so worked up...Goodness, CALM DOWN!! I am not trying to insult TRF members. First of all, when I say papers, I am not only referring to ownership papers, but papers showing a pattern of service such as invoices showing that a watch in question has been serviced or at least seen by a service tech at some point in time. As far as watch authentication is concerned, I am no fool and realize that anything can be faked. When I made the comments originally, I foolishly thought I was contributing on this forum rather then callously insulting people. I shall certainly be more careful with my comments. I meant no offense to anyone on this forum and sincerely apologize if my comments offended anyone here especially you Larry.

[jolimont]

Originally Posted by T. Ferguson

Has anyone heard of counterfeit RSC papers?

someone got done at VRF for faking papers (stamping fresh papers)

[lmj2a]

Originally Posted by bycrom

I am looking for my second Rolex, and check out TRF selling items daily. There is a thread active right now "Stolen Rolex serial number database" that makes me cautious to buy used unless all papers come with the deal.

I can not figure out why any watch would not have all papers/box/etc included in the sale? That right there is a flag IMHO, and right now I would not consider that offer.

Am I being over cautious? Is there a valid good reason other then the original owner, for some crazy reason, tossing these items in the trash when they first bought them?

Thanks in advance.

Well, I just sold a GMT Master II to a forum member here with no papers... it didn't have papers when I bought it. Some people just don't care about that type of thing and throw them away when the warranty expires.

Personally, I keep them.... but I'm a nerd, not a "normal" person.

[Htab]

From personal experience the box and papers mean nothing. Unfortunately having them Does add value to the watch

[polarinda]

yes they mean nothing unless you wanna sell it.

[wokafu]

Originally Posted by jolimont

but they can add value to your watch

i prefer my watches to have papers, but its not a deal killer if the price is right

x2