Classic 18038 bracelet authenticity discussion.

[LordNinja]

I noticed a recent seller of a similar watch had issues when the buyer declared his band was after-market. I am aware that this happens quite a lot on presidential bands as the gold is soft... often gets melted down after the infamous stretching and life goes on.

I did some research on the band I had and all looked well enough. I noticed there were mainly two kinds of bands seen on the 18038 wherein where the hinge meets one seems to be squared off.. the other has a rounded back.

On one site they point to the squaring as evidence of the band being a copy.. on other sites it's just the stamping they are interested in and so forth.. I've sorta given up being able to tell at all.I've seen plenty of squared clasp holes on watches posted on here sold as factory as well.

I recently sold the watch and the buyer thinks the band is a replacement due to how it drapes, I'll provide a shot of that as well.

I am in a very lucky position of being friends with the buyer so we can work it out just the same.. but what do you guys think about the band pictured? The gold was tested as 18k. My confidence was high on the band so I'm rather surprised though I am not generally dealing with pieces from this era so I could be wrong.

The clasp code is centered '55' on stamped inside the endlinks, I did not snap a picture of that but it looked as expected.

Keep in mind the band would be around early 80s.

Thanks for your time.

[LordNinja]

The last picture shows the squaring on the right clasp component I mention. It's been driving me crazy because again.. go look in the for sales section and you'll see others like it sold. Unless it's a common issue and people just don't mention it.. I'm perplexed. The stamping looked good to me under a loupe, if I could I'd post a loupeshot but he still has t he watch as we decide what we want to do.

[TimeToGo]

I am sure David, CrownCollection, will chime in later. He is a wealth of information.

[LordNinja]

Also: Just to point out some differences I have noticed, the fabled square and rounds.. check it out.

Strange huh?

[imono]

Some were made that way.
Here are pics of more.
1976 and 1978 DD with the Square type.
1984 and 1995 with the Rounded type.
And the 55 on the end links.

[LordNinja]

How interesting. Thanks for chiming in.

[LordNinja]

I'm telling him to follow along, he seems pretty convinced to the point of exploring melt options. I figure that is how we will handle it in the end, if proved lacking I would rather have it melted then let it exist.

I am really not a fan of aftermarket anything.

[crowncollection]

Hi, Imono is correct, they made them in both styles, if you are happy with the clasp hallmarks, detail of scrolling and G for geneve near the ladies head. There are so many more things to check to ensure the band section has not just been replaced, there are three things to check alone in every removable link, please provide some close ups of the screw thread, one aspect must be of the ends of the screw thread (longways) screw head from the side also, the screw hole. Then you check the welds for certain characteristics in a few places, and you can even weigh a link and screw as a final check on removable links. Please private message me and we can go through the checks as i do not wish to give every trick away on an open forum, happy to discuss such matters with other well established members though regards

[LordNinja]

And it turns out your reputation is well deserved.

Fantastic, I will message you right now. I understand about the open forum bit.

[LordNinja]

For those following along I am speaking with David now. The watch is out of my hands until my buyer returns from NY and decides what he wants to do.

If I end up with it again I'll get some super photos of the requested components and at least I will know what to look for in the future if it is in fact one of these damn aftermarkets.

I'll know what's up tomorrow. Thanks again David.

[jolimont]

great forum

[themast]

Interesting thread.

What puzzles me is WHY there are so many president aftermarket (or fake, if they reproduce copyrighted stuff) bracelets.
I mean, I understand for datejusts, because some may want to upgrade from SS or TT but why one should buy an aftermarket president bracelet?
DayDate has not always been gold (or plat) only?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by themast

Interesting thread.

What puzzles me is WHY there are so many president aftermarket (or fake, if they reproduce copyrighted stuff) bracelets.
I mean, I understand for datejusts, because some may want to upgrade from SS or TT but why one should buy an aftermarket president bracelet?
DayDate has not always been gold (or plat) only?

About 7 years ago I decided to replace the bracelet on my DD 1803. The price for a Rolex replacement was ~$8,000.00 if I recall. (For a watch I paid less than $3000 for) An aftermarket/non-infringe Italian 18K bracelet was <$3000.00. That $5K difference buys a lot of stuff.

This was long before I even knew about TRF or that WIS's even existed. I'd probably opt for a strap knowing what I know now.

But I still wear my DD, as is, with no desire to replace the aftermarket bracelet with a Rolex and no intention to deceive on what I have.

[themast]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

About 7 years ago I decided to replace the bracelet on my DD 1803. The price for a Rolex replacement was ~$8,000.00 if I recall. (For a watch I paid less than $3000 for) An aftermarket/non-infringe Italian 18K bracelet was <$3000.00. That $5K difference buys a lot of stuff.

This was long before I even knew about TRF or that WIS's even existed. I'd probably opt for a strap knowing what I know now.

But I still wear my DD, as is, with no desire to replace the aftermarket bracelet with a Rolex and no intention to deceive on what I have.

I thought about a situation like this but my question would be: why you did not restore your original DD bracelet? I have no exact idea but I guess that the main things were polishing and replacing pins: that could be done with <3000$ you paid for a replacement. Where am I wrong?

[jolimont]

Originally Posted by themast

I have no exact idea but I guess that the main things were polishing and replacing pins: that could be done with <3000$ you paid for a replacement. Where am I wrong?

only 1 guy in the 7 billion on this planet does this sort of stuff, as far as i know

not the easiest thing to go and get done

[LordNinja]

One man indeed is well known for it.. 'michael young' {Bracelet repair} Mostly he has good reviews but some really bad ones too.. as with anything else. Some people would not want to ship a solid gold bracelet to China.

As for the why do they exist question? Because, much like the aftermarket bezels.... people buy them. As Crowncollection has mentioned.. It's best not to give away all the details that are used in detecting aftermarkets.. as then the fakers get better..

I know it's hard to find a Daydate factory bracelet by its lonesome, as this transpires I am learning the replacement cost from rolex is over 10K.

Again for updates sake: I have heard nothing from my buyer today as of yet. Spoke to him last night about this thread and he was friendly as ever and just said he is confident that it is aftermarket. So, I'm just waiting to see what he wants to do.

I still see websites dedicated to aftermarket detection getting some things wrong.. The square hole alone is a misnomer for instance. It was in fact done on some bracelets...

*shrug* on the plus side I am learning more then I thought was left about Rolex engineering. Makes me feel better about the whole thing.

Fascinating hobby though. I love every minute of it.

[mkmk]

Much to do about nothing. What is the difference in putting on a replacement bracelet with your original Rolex clasp or a leather strap. Both are after market. As long as it is disclosed that the bracelet (links portion) is aftermarket and the "watch" and clasp are original upon a sale to someone else, I see no problem. I would not melt the bracelet. Get a price for a new gold bracelet from Rolex--it will blow you away and you may reconsider the melting. After market bracelet or aftermarket leather strap--both are aftermarket.

[themast]

Originally Posted by jolimont

only 1 guy in the 7 billion on this planet does this sort of stuff, as far as i know

not the easiest thing to go and get done

So a president bracelet is not serviceable? Not even by Rolex?

Sorry guys, I still do not understand in full why one should buy an aftermarket, full gold, president bracelet.

Let say, for instance, that Jack (made up name) has a yellow gold day date. If the bracelet gets a lot of play or, let's say, has a broken link. Would it be cheaper for Jack to buy an entire, aftermarket, solid gold bracelet rather than fixing what he currently has?
I am trying to understand why one would buy a new one. I genuinely do not understand it (yet).

[crowncollection]

i once took a ladies president for service at rolex, really to get new warranty papers and the report came back from rolex that the bracelet was an optional fix which i declined, it had a medium amount of slack, they wanted to charge 5500 dollars for the band sections, they would return to removable links to the new links sections and the original clasp, so this gives you an idea of cost of original stuff, i bought the whole ladies president watch with a factory diamond dial for $5500 approx.
The band was quite wearable still

[themast]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

i once took a ladies president for service at rolex, really to get new warranty papers and the report came back from rolex that the bracelet was an optional fix which i declined, it had a medium amount of slack, they wanted to charge 5500 dollars for the band sections, they would return to removable links to the new links sections and the original clasp, so this gives you an idea of cost of original stuff, i bought the whole ladies president watch with a factory diamond dial for $5500 approx.
The band was quite wearable still

Thank you David. I had no idea that was so expensive. This puts things in perspective now for me.

[jctrolex]

Originally Posted by themast

So a president bracelet is not serviceable? Not even by Rolex?

Sorry guys, I still do not understand in full why one should buy an aftermarket, full gold, president bracelet.

Let say, for instance, that Jack (made up name) has a yellow gold day date. If the bracelet gets a lot of play or, let's say, has a broken link. Would it be cheaper for Jack to buy an entire, aftermarket, solid gold bracelet rather than fixing what he currently has?
I am trying to understand why one would buy a new one. I genuinely do not understand it (yet).

I think when people think about replacing a solid gold president bracelet they are talking about a bracelet that is really stretched, they are not talking about a broken link that you can buy from Rolex and just replacing that link. When a bracelet is stretched Rolex won't retore it and there are very few people have the skill to do so and for the time it takes it would be very expensive (may be someone here in TRF can chime in with an approximate cost). Buying one from Rolex would be over 10K versus about 3-4K for an after market one with the same gold content. It is similar (but not entirely the same) when the leather strap on my Omega has to be replaced I would opt for a good quality Hirsch strap for about $100 instead of paying $300 for a genuine Omega strap, to me they are both good quality leather and an Omega stamp on the back of the strap is simply not worth $200 defference to me.

[77T]

It is a controversial topic when any aftermarket bracelet (or strap for that matter) has any Rolex name or logo on it. So not a subject for debate - it would be counterfeit.

But generic aftermarket replacements are sometimes the only economical approach to a broken bracelet/strap.

[LordNinja]

Fair enough. Though, the topic of wether a certain bracelet is one or the other can be debated when the details are rather fuzzy.

[LordNinja]

I guess I should say when the details are rather fuzzy AND the knowledge of what to look for is incomplete.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by themast

I thought about a situation like this but my question would be: why you did not restore your original DD bracelet? I have no exact idea but I guess that the main things were polishing and replacing pins: that could be done with <3000$ you paid for a replacement. Where am I wrong?

The previous band was also aftermarket. It was in such bad shape from stretch it barely resembled a 'President'. The watch was over 40 years old at the time and who knows how old that bracelet was. I sold it to the store as scrap value towards the purchase of a new bracelet.

Like I said, knowing what I know now and seeing how beautiful/classic the 1803 is on a strap, I could have had an even more less expensive alternative to a Rolex bracelet.

Sorry OP for the derail.

[LordNinja]

No worries my friend. It's interesting to me how these things come to be.

Originally Posted by Eulogy

The previous band was also aftermarket. It was in such bad shape from stretch it barely resembled a 'President'. The watch was over 40 years old at the time and who knows how old that bracelet was. I sold it to the store as scrap value towards the purchase of a new bracelet.

Like I said, knowing what I know now and seeing how beautiful/classic the 1803 is on a strap, I could have had an even more less expensive alternative to a Rolex bracelet.

Sorry OP for the derail.