Happy Holidays - New 1665 on the site

[BermudaKRS]

I have been searching for a good looking, vintage timepiece which will hold its value well, and by chance I had the opportunity to acquire this 1974 Sea Dweller last week.

It is a one owner watch bought from a local Rolex authorized dealer on the island, which is still in business, in 1974 by a father for his son. Apart from having a few scuffs over the past 40 years and no papers, it is in fairly good condition, and I am very happy with it.

Any recommendations on how best to handle and care for this piece would be much appreciated. I assume a service and professional cleaning are first in order. Apart from a 1966 Breitling Navitimer, this is my only watch, and it will be a daily wear.

I have to say, finding and reading this forum over the last two days has been great. The enthusiasm is refreshing and the photos of these nice vintage pieces out there never get old. Hope to have a few more of my own to show in the future.

[swish77]

Looks very nice! But are you sure on the year? What's the beginning of the serial number? It might have a service replacement dial, because I think it should be a double-red for that year. Might want to research the dials to find out for sure. Nonetheless, nothing wrong with a service dial in my book, as long as you know that going in and the watch is priced accordingly. Congrats!

[Cc1966]

Great piece ~ look forward to seeing your growing collection.

[BermudaKRS]

I wish I could say more; the trust I purchased it from mentioned the serial and the year and a site I found matches the early 4 million number to 1974 but there are a host of inaccuracies which could be present. Am I able to take the band off on my own?

[Beaumont Miller II]

Nice watch and a beautiful sharp case. As Aaron pointed out it is a service dial. If the watch is from 1974 it would have been sold new with a matte Sea Dweller dial with 2 lines of red print. A shot of the case back would also help confirm this. It likely has "ROLEX" straight across the back rather than around. Wear it an enjoy it.

[Frosty]

I just like the matt dial and the no cyclops look of the Sea Dweller. I am kind of picky on a new watch, but, on a vintage I like the history that the watch shows.

[BermudaKRS]

That's a shame, i've read about the 'double red' and I assume some of the value is a result of actually having that original dial. Am I correct in assuming that a service dial is basically a replacement? Any way to date it? The serial is 4090001, and as Beaumont Miller II mentioned Rolex is written straight across the case. Does that significantly affect value?

[Beaumont Miller II]

PM sent

[southtexas]

Yes a lot of the premium of that watch comes from the red letters. A DRSD in that condition would be worth north of $20k, I believe. It's cousin, the "great white" as it's commonly referred to, would be worth usd $10k or so (somebody feel free to correct me on the numbers if I'm too far off--numbers based on the US vintage market).

And yes, with the help of a paper clip you can easily remove the band. Just stick it in the holes on the side and the spring bar holding the band in place will retract, allowing you easy access to slide off the band. The serial is located on the case at the 6 o'clock position.

We look forward to hearing more to this story.

[Cc1966]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Yes a lot of the premium of that watch comes from the red letters. A DRSD in that condition would be worth north of $20k, I believe. It's cousin, the "great white" as it's commonly referred to, would be worth usd $10k or so (somebody feel free to correct me on the numbers if I'm too far off).

With "rail" dials add another 4-5K to the $10,000.

[BermudaKRS]

Thanks for the responses Swish77, Cc1966, Frosty and SouthTexas. To gain a bit more knowledge, how would one tell a "Great White" or if it has rail dials?

I was just informed that my apparent service dial is basically used when a true replacement of the original cannot be found or is no longer in production, which helps to explain why it is so clean and the markers are not faded in the slightest.

If I were to purchase an original dial (DR or strictly white) and replaced my service, is that considered cheating?

[Cc1966]

The 1665 with a rail dial has the letters "c" in chronometer and certified aligned vertically. To the OP, I would leave it like it is and enjoy...

[southtexas]

[QUOTE=BermudaKRS;4624543]Thanks for the responses Swish77, Cc1966, Frosty and SouthTexas. To gain a bit more knowledge, how would one tell a "Great White" or if it has rail dials?

I was just informed that my apparent service dial is basically used when a true replacement of the original cannot be found or is no longer in production, which helps to explain why it is so clean and the markers are not faded in the slightest.

If I were to purchase an original dial (DR or strictly white) and replaced my service, is that considered cheating?[/QUOTE]

Now that is an interesting question. If you replaced it with a DR, in my opinion you'd be restoring the watch to nearer to its original state than it is in currently. However, sourcing a serial-correct "Mark 4 (??)" dial will be hard if not impossible. I don't know what it would cost to do so; therefore, I don't know if it would be worth doing--unless money is no object and you just enjoy the project.

QUESTION: If this was a true service dial from RSC, wouldn't it only be SWISS? Is this dial actually a "great white" Mark 2 dial, that was been put in for whatever reason by someone?

[Beaumont Miller II]

If you replace the dial, and I am NOT saying you should, then it would need to be with a mk IV and perhaps a mk III DRSD dial. Putting a mk I white dial would not make sense as the dial would run about a grand and would not be correct for the serial number on the watch. For now enjoy the watch.

[BermudaKRS]

Interesting point. I have seen a few dials/movements for sale on ebay that 'seem' authentic but I do not know enough to say one way or another. Money is definitely an object btw!

For what it's worth, I very much doubt the previous owner was an astute watch aficionado given what I knew of him, and any replacement would more than likely have been done through the factory as needed.

Is it possible to gain service records directly from Rolex on past jobs? There is absolutely no paperwork available to me for this, although I will go down to the dealer on a whim tomorrow and inquire about how servicing jobs are done here.

[BermudaKRS]

Beaumont, I understand and agree. I would not be open to spend another four figures to have an original dial at this point, but happy to at least know what I have. Thanks again for the insight.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by BermudaKRS

Beaumont, I understand and agree. I would not be open to spend another four figures to have an original dial at this point, but happy to at least know what I have. Thanks again for the insight.

A DR dial might cost you five figures, not four! I'm not sure about this number, though. I've been googling for an hour and can't find one. I must be doing it wrong

[BermudaKRS]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ROLE...item51ab92a248

So only a DR dial would be a truly accurate replacement? I did see one with the movement included for $20k, so I may give up the search after seeing that.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by BermudaKRS

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ROLE...item51ab92a248

So only a DR dial would be a truly accurate replacement? I did see one with the movement included for $20k, so I may give up the search after seeing that.

Yes, your watch (and every sea dweller issued in its serial range up to 6 mill.) came with a certain dial with the two lines of red letters. These dials from one serial grouping to the next had small differences from one generation to the next; the dials are known as Mark O, Mark I, and so on up to Mark 5 (I think?).

To be as accurate as possible, you'd need a dial from very near to your serial range (which would have certain attributes unique to its "Mark"). I think yours would be a Mark 4.

As I understand things, Rolex gave up on the red paint in the 6+ million serial range; all sea dwellers made from that point forward had all white letters.

[swish77]

If it were mine, I'd just leave it alone and enjoy a beautiful watch. Nothing wrong with an authentic Rolex replacement dial, especially a tritium dial. The only issue that I would be concerned about is if the seller didn't disclose this fact (or tried to insist the watch was all original), and priced the watch higher than it should have been based on the replacement dial. We all love 100 percent original, unpolished watches, but most of what we see doesn't meet that tough criteria. Your watch is still a super cool vintage Rolex.

[BermudaKRS]

Thank you Swish.

Out of sheer curiosity for myself and anyone else who may be interested, and also knowing that the seller sold the watch as is i.e. no discussion about whether the watch dial was original/replaced (and I did not know any better than to assume it was original unfortunately), [B]what would you pay as a fair price for this watch?[B]

[BermudaKRS]

or a better worded question, what do you think would be a fair price?

[Old Expat Beast]

I heard Rolex will replace a red dial at service if it's correct for the watch.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by BermudaKRS

or a better worded question, what do you think would be a fair price?

What'd you pay for it? And if you have no recourse or chance for refund, this will most likely be an unhealthy exercise (unless you paid next to nothing).

And did you ever get the band off to confirm the serial? It could be the dial is perfect to the watch, but somebody jumbled some serial #s.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by southtexas

What'd you pay for it? And if you have no recourse or chance for refund, this will most likely be an unhealthy exercise (unless you paid next to nothing).

And did you ever get the band off to confirm the serial? It could be the dial is perfect to the watch, but somebody jumbled some serial #s.

I believe the serial number was confirmed above as a 4.0 million. As for price, there are many other factors, but as a DRSD-eligible watch with a service dial, I would imagine it would be priced slightly higher than a regular "Great White," but I'm not sure. Maybe $12K, depending on the other factors, like case condition, service history, etc … I know that's a lot less than what it would be worth with the original dial, but in the vintage world the dial is HUGE, especially with specialty dials, like the DRSDs. It's all about those two little red lines of type.

[BermudaKRS]

I paid $7,500. To me, believing it was fully original, I considered it a steal, but knowing what I do now I would have bargained lower.

To add to this story, I contacted the jeweler it was originally purchased from and they said they do all the Rolex services in house and would have kept records. I am going there later this afternoon to find out more details. The gentleman did also mention that Rolex was very particular regarding the dials, and if one was replaced, the 'old' dial had to be sent back to Rolex and was not allowed to be kept/sold/distributed. Again, this is just what I was told so I won't swear by it.

[southtexas]

To satisfy my own curiosity, I just called the Rolex service center in Dallas to ask if they currently have (or can obtain from the mother ship) service dials with red font for that watch. Unfortunately, they're closed until Jan 6th.

I read back through the posts but couldn't find anywhere where you actually stated you took the band off to confirm the serial number. Did you do so? If the watch is actually a newer model, then you might've made a great deal.

In my opinion, a 4million serial with a later dial would be harder to value. Original DR go for over $20k, original GW go for 10k; what does one that is neither go for?

Is it confirmed this is a true service dial used for sea dwellers of its age, and not simply a newer model "great white" dial dropped in by someone at a later date;

OR--were some service dials for earlier models simply the same as later model factory original dials? I ask because a site dedicated to these watches shows service dials, but they have at least one line of red. There is no mention of all white service dials used for red SD.


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[BermudaKRS]

I was able to take the band off (I think I posted a bad photo of the serial earlier in the thread) and the serial is 4090001, which places it as a 1974. I am hoping that the service records of when the dial was replaced will be available and that should help clear up why the replaced dial is the way it it. I guess if the service was completed in the 90's or 2000's, they may have used the latest dial produced for a SD with 2000ft markings.

[southtexas]

Sorry about that! I missed the post wherein you stated the serial, and my tapatalk is not displaying any images.

My apologies for stalling the conversation!


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[mdw3]

I typically value a double-red watch with replaced dial a bit lower than a perfectly original White sea dweller. To find the dial will be a challenge, and when you do, the cost will probably equate to the difference in value between the two watches in any event. Also, many buyers are not interested in a watch with a replaced dial, at any price.

So, in conclusion, I think at $7,500 you made a very fair deal for yourself, and you are probably best served to use the watch as it is until you tire of it. I doubt there is much money to lose at that figure.

Michael