Submariner (ceramic) bezel wobble

[bbqBiker]

3-4 months ago, I sent my sub-ceramic to Dallas for a small tweak covered under the very last week of my warranty. It sat in the safe, and I just brought it back into rotation this month. Yesterday noticed that the bezel is wobbly. I can (literally) rock the thing back and forth pushing anywhere on opposite ends. In fact I can put my fingernail under the bezel to easily pop it off now. I very rarely use the bezel function (and not at all since it returned for Dallas) so do not know if it came back from Dallas like that or if the wobble has developed since. No drops or dinged incidents, so I was hoping it was just reinstalled incorrectly and this is something I can remedy myself. Any suggestions? Also, it seems to rotate and click just fine and will only move counter-clockwise.When bezel is off I see 4 little 'posts' and 3 are the same height; the bottom right one sits slightly lower and looks different than the other 3 but I know that has something to do with the unidirectional aspect. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave (I did try to search the forums first, btw.)

[padi56]

First what do you mean when the bezel is off ?,and what little tweak did Dallas perform ?.Now all ceramic bezel inserts float on 3 spring-loaded ball-bearings plus a spring-loaded click stop so there will be some slight push down movement.Ceramic bezel and inserts especially the insert needs special tools to replace and not a DIY job to replace.

[bbqBiker]

Dallas cleaned the bezel insert (within the numbers) that had something embedded I could not clean, checked/reset the crown and adjusted the movement.

The black ceramic insert is mounted within the bezel itself (seemingly) just fine. It is the entire bezel that will not set properly. Yesterday I just noticed the loose wobble when I pushed down on the bezel (especially from opposite sides (6and12, 3and9, etc). Once the whole bezel popped off by just inserting my fingernail under it, I cleaned it slightly then carefully pushed it back down. Now it wobbles (see above) and wiggles (moves up and down or side to side if I try to slide it. Totally not right now. Not sure what caused the wobble; guessing I lost a retention spring or something when the whole thing popped off, hence now the wobble and the wiggle. (Sounds like a 1950s dance move.) Guessing I should call Dallas.

[Sublover2166]

Sounds like the nylon retaining ring that holds bezel on is damaged or something wrong. Should not be able to pop the whole bezel off easily. I would send back to RSC or risk that bezel falling off and possibly losing it

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Sublover2166

Sounds like the nylon retaining ring that holds bezel on is damaged or something wrong. Should not be able to pop the whole bezel off easily. I would send back to RSC or risk that bezel falling off and possibly losing it

Have to agree take it back to Dallas either the Delrin gasket was not changed or damaged when they put bezel back on. Or not put back on all together if you lose the bezel and insert it will be very costly to replace get it seen to and fixed.

[bbqBiker]

I see no gasket, so that is most likely the culprit. Back in the safe til this gets sorted with RSC. Thanks for the input. Kudos as always to this site and its members.

[Broker Boy]

Originally Posted by Sublover2166

Sounds like the nylon retaining ring that holds bezel on is damaged or something wrong. Should not be able to pop the whole bezel off easily. I would send back to RSC or risk that bezel falling off and possibly losing it

I spent some time on this site yesterday, and the more I read about the nylon retaining ring, the more concerned I've become about the durability of the Sub C's bezel.

Why would Rolex use such a cheap, flimsy method of seating the bezel to their modern, updated Submariner?

http://www.minus4plus6.com/deepsea.htm

[locutus49]

My experience is that the bezel and seating are NOT flimsy or cheap. Mine is very solid. I think out of the millions of Subs and SDs sold we would have to see how many have had this specific problem before generalizing.

I have noticed a certain nostalgia for older Rolex models (Daytonas, Subs, etc.) by some on the internet. Which is fine. But I prefer the improvements of the new versions. Each to their own.

Originally Posted by Broker Boy

I spent some time on this site yesterday, and the more I read about the nylon retaining ring, the more concerned I've become about the durability of the Sub C's bezel.

Why would Rolex use such a cheap, flimsy method of seating the bezel to their modern, updated Submariner?

http://www.minus4plus6.com/deepsea.htm

[Broker Boy]

And I haven't had a single problem with mine. I was just amazed to learn that the bezel is connected to the case by a thin strip of plastic.

Just seemed a tad elementary for the engineering capabilities of Rolex.

[locutus49]

True. And remember, it was the little rubber O-ring that went bad on the Challenger shuttle. But I guess their engineers had their reasons for the change.

Originally Posted by Broker Boy

And I haven't had a single problem with mine. I was just amazed to learn that the bezel is connected to the case by a thin strip of plastic.

Just seemed a tad elementary for the engineering capabilities of Rolex.

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by locutus49

True. And remember, it was the little rubber O-ring that went bad on the Challenger shuttle. But I guess their engineers had their reasons for the change.

I'm not sure that O-ring could be considered little, except proportionally, I guess.

I also don't expect the DSSD to be shooting fire from the bezel.

Does anyone know how much of this design is shared by the GMTII?

[Jason71]

Originally Posted by Broker Boy

I spent some time on this site yesterday, and the more I read about the nylon retaining ring, the more concerned I've become about the durability of the Sub C's bezel.

Why would Rolex use such a cheap, flimsy method of seating the bezel to their modern, updated Submariner?

http://www.minus4plus6.com/deepsea.htm

I agree with you completely. Reminds me of the Jeep CJ-7 from the early 1980s. It actually came with a plastic valve cover from the factory. Worked fine for a while, but after a couple years the plastic warped and every engine leaked oil like a from a sieve. One of the WORST ideas ever.

I wonder how many years it will take for people to realize what a bad idea these delrin rings are.

[Runnin' Rebel]

Wouldn't the delrin ring be replaced at the normal routine maintenance intervals, kinda like the crown and case back gaskets ? Another reason to not skimp on maintenance. Sounds like if you just have one watch that happens to be ceramic and you don't rotate through a bunch of watches you might be forced into the 5-7 year plan

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by Jason71

I wonder how many years it will take for people to realize what a bad idea these delrin rings are.

I've done some googling about Delrin and what I'm finding is that it may very well be the best material for the job, as it addresses some of the worries about the durability of my own watches.

Of course, Delrin is not used in all my Rolex watches and I've yet to determine if it is used in my GMT, but if these data are correct, then we should have no problem with Delrin.

Delrin®

Homopolymer

Delrin® has excellent dimensional stability, machinability and high mechanical strength and stiffness. As a strong Polymer, Delrin® provides good wear and abrasion resistance, a low coefficient of friction and low moisture absorption, making the product a good choice for use in high moisture environments. Delrin® is an excellent choice for its long term mechanical stability in applications such as Valves, Washers, Gears, Bushings, Bearings, Seals, Rollers, Timing Screws, Electrical Components and Anti-Friction Parts. It is important to note that although Delrin® is strong mechanically, and offers excellent resistance to moisture, gasoline, solvents, and many other neutral chemicals, it cannot tolerate acidic conditions long term.

http://www.jacoproducts.com/material...%AE%3C/sup%3E1


Acetal resins are engineering thermoplastics based on fromaldehyde polymerization technology. These highly crsytalline resins are strong, rigid, and have good moisture, heat and solvent resistance. Acetals produced in the United States include homopolymers (Delrin by Dupont) and copolymers (Celcon, by Celanese). A copolymer is formed by the polymerizeration of two monomers. Because of the chemical make-up differences, do not substitiute one acetal for the other without considering the impact of the change.

Uses in automotive applications include fuel-system and seat belt components, steering columns, window support brackets and handles. Typical plumbing applications that have replaced brass or zinc compnents are shower heads, ballcocks, faucet cartridges and various fittings. Consumer items include quality toys, garden sprayers, stereo cassette parts, butane lighter bodies, zippers, and telephone components.

http://www.midwestplastics.com/nylon.html

Acetal (Delrin®, Celcon®) - Acetals display good impact resistance, dimensional stability and outstanding surface hardness due to their high degree of crystallinity. They have high dielectric strength and are resistant to many solvents. They also exhibit negligible water absorption. Typical applications include roller bearings, gears, reels, counters, control cams, valves, and pump parts.

http://www.proplasticsinc.com/materials.html


Delrin/Acetal

Acetal/Delrin offers design engineers a superior blend of strength, stiffness, lubricity, and dimensional stability. These properties, along with inherent maching ease have made Acetal/Delrin one of the most widely used engineering grade thermoplastics. Acetal/Delrin comes in a broad array of stock shapes. These materials include both homopolymer and copolymer unfilled grades as well as PTFE-filled grades for enhanced wear resistance. We also offer an electrically conductive grade of Acetal that is used in the micro-electronics industry to dissipate static electric charges.

Benefits include: 185°F Continuous Use Temperature, High Strength and Stiffness, Excellent Toughness, Superior Wear Resistance, Low Moisture Absorption, Easily Machined and Fabricated

Industries include: Food Processing, Material Handling Equipment, Fluid Handling, Electronics Manufacturing, Automotive

Applications include: Pistons, ValvesManifolds, Food Product Forming Dies, Timing Screws, Scraper Blades, wear Strips, Pump Components, Gears, Bushings and Bearings, Electrical Components

http://acmeplastics.thomasnet.com/ca...etal-nylon-pvc

Mechanical Properties Performance

The resins in the Delrin® 100 acetal homopolymer series are distinguished by their high molecular weight relative to other acetal grades. This identifying feature of these high performance acetal homopolymers, along with their natural high crystallinity, yields materials that have:

Toughness, high impact strength, high resistance to repeated impact, and high elongation without the need for impact modifiers.

High mechanical strength and rigidity, without the need for fillers/reinforcements or other modifications.

Outstanding creep resistance and long-term fatigue endurance.

These features of high mechanical strength and toughness can be seen in this overlay of stress-strain curves of high viscosity Delrin® acetal homopolymers and standard acetal copolymers of similar viscosity (Melt Flow Rate of 2.5 g/10 min at 190°C). Delrin® 100 and 100P have very high Tensile Strength and Strain at Break, significantly higher than the standard copolymer. These relative advantages are maintained at elevated temperatures as well.

Processing Performance

Delrin® acetal homopolymers are readily processed with a variety of molding machines and tooling configurations. The good flow characteristics, fast cycling, and thermal stability of Delrin® grades allow for these materials to be easily molded into complex shapes for parts in demanding acetal applications. Figure 2 demonstrates that the Delrin® 100 series has excellent thermal stability in this test while being held in a capillary rheometer at 220°C at hold-uptimes of up to 30 min, as evidenced by very little reduction in the melt viscosity.

Most molding processes generate excess material from the runner systems, typically at levels of about 30% of the total shot. For optimum productivity, molders generally regrind these runners for blending with virgin resin, depending on parts requirements. When the blend has been processed correctly, original resin properties are well maintained. Figure 3 shows the results of evaluations on molded test bars of Delrin® 100 with up to 5 regrind passes at the extreme of 100% regrind under recommended molding parameters. Even though use of 100% regrind is not common, the graphs show excellent performance through several regrind passes, with the high Yield Stress and Tensile Modulus being retained even under such extreme conditions.

Specific recommendations for optimized processing parameters for molding and proper use of regrind can be found in the Delrin® Molding Guide and the individual resin data sheets. The good processability of Delrin® acetal resins can result in:

Potential opportunity to reduce cost
Low levels of rejects
Part-to-part consistency

http://www.dupont.com/products-and-s...00-series.html