Vendetta Against eBay!

[locutus49]

Yes, I have been accused of waging a vendetta against eBay for posting a few comments on the Fake threads suggesting buyers WHO LACK EXPERTISE should avoid buying their first Rolex on eBay.

Vendetta, Jihad, war!!! Let me explain my posts. And I invite you to respond, but please remain civil.

First, I do realize that genuine Rolexes are sold on eBay, sometimes by TRF members. I don't know the numbers, but let's assume for the sake of discussion that 50% of Rolexes sold on eBay are genuine. I believe I'm being generous.

That means that a significant percentage of Rolexes sold on ebay are fake, or franken-Rolexes. Please go to the Watchout sub-Forum and check out how many of the fakes are from eBay. One or two, I would wager. Anyway, it will give you a rough idea of the scale of the problem.

My posts ALWAYS contain a qualification that if a buyer is not an expert or possesses expertise, he should avoid buying his vintage Rolex off eBay. I do not offer advice to experienced buyers. YOU may be very honest and experienced in buying and selling on eBay, but many buyers have little money and no experience. Is eBay the place you would advise them to risk their savings on?

New buyers, frequently ones who have saved up for their first Rolex, come to our site for advice and a stamp of authenticity on an eBay watch he has his eye on. I feel it can be helpful to suggest these non-expert buyers be cautious when buying pre-owned Rolexes off an auction site well known to sell fakes of many luxury goods. I never tell people NOT to buy, just to be cautious or to avoid buying "vintage Rolexes" off eBay if they are inexperienced.

You may disagree, and feel that buyers should buy what they want, and since some sellers on eBay are trusted sellers, that it follows that most or all Rolexes on ebay are genuine.

I think we are helping inexperienced buyers by steering them towards ADs or trusted TRF sellers (which I always do).

So if that is a vendetta, so be it. But I never made a slanderous or false allegation against any legitimate or trusted seller on eBay. eBay is a publicly traded company and I believe they could be doing much more to ensure their luxury goods are legitimate. They could hire a watch expert to review all luxury watches proposed for auction. That would at least show credibility.

Bottom Line: TRF should be, and is to a large extent, helping inexperienced buyers buy their first Rolex from legitimate sellers. And help them buy genuine Rolexes. Many will ignore our advice. But it is not a crime or vendetta to help people with a financially important decision.

[MonBK]

This is actually what you said: "But virtually every Rolex sold on eBay is fake,"

[CommanderRiker]

Hey John, newer member here who always finds your posts amusing, entertaining and well thought out. I saw a couple of the posts on another thread regarding this and totally get what you are saying. Some folks are big ebayers and shareholders ... For others it's still a riskier place where bad news comes from. Good post explaining your position please don't let up with your opinions as guys like you are what keep me coming here daily.

[Dishpro01]

EBay would only open themselves to liability by hiring a watch expert. Authentication can only take place when the watch odds physically present. EBay obviously is content with leaving the risk to their buyers.

[breitlings]

good advice. I'd add if the deal is too good don't take it. Anywhere anybody.

As a fan of breitlings. It's likely the best place to shop but you send back about as many as you keep. I think it's 50 percent of the watches on eBay are not worth owning even if parts are real so a legit seller and no questions returns are worth a few hundred. Whereas boxes. I Could take them or leave them, I do find watches with og work are sometimes cleaner.

[Johny]

Originally Posted by MonBK

This is actually what you said: "But virtually every Rolex sold on eBay is fake,"

[Chewbacca]

John,

just let it go.

there's just too much going on with your rant and you're going to get time-out.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Johny

I'm not trying to belittle the OP's post but the watchout section is there for a reason and we have been trying for years to help out.

[Danex]

I support you John. I believe it is correct for you to share your views on eBay and I have taken them to heart. As a newby, I think an eBay Rolex purchase would be a nightmare for me. A Rolex purchase is something very special. A part of the value is the experience. Any worries or concerns about authenticity subtract in a big way. For me, the eBay marketplace is not suitable. I consider it a gamble.

[locutus49]

Originally Posted by MonBK

This is actually what you said: "But virtually every Rolex sold on eBay is fake,"

True, I have went overboard on occasion. And for those times I apologize. But I did leave myself a trapdoor by saying "virtually"

Originally Posted by CommanderRiker

Hey John, newer member here who always finds your posts amusing, entertaining and well thought out. I saw a couple of the posts on another thread regarding this and totally get what you are saying. Some folks are big ebayers and shareholders ... For others it's still a riskier place where bad news comes from. Good post explaining your position please don't let up with your opinions as guys like you are what keep me coming here daily.

Thanks you for your kind words. My posts may be awkward, but hey, at least I try to help.

Originally Posted by Dishpro01

EBay would only open themselves to liability by hiring a watch expert. Authentication can only take place when the watch odds physically present. EBay obviously is content with leaving the risk to their buyers.

Dishpro: Great point. I never thought of it that way. Thanks.

Originally Posted by breitlings

good advice. I'd add if the deal is too good don't take it. Anywhere anybody.

As a fan of breitlings. It's likely the best place to shop but you send back about as many as you keep. I think it's 50 percent of the watches on eBay are not worth owning even if parts are real so a legit seller and no questions returns are worth a few hundred. Whereas boxes. I Could take them or leave them, I do find watches with og work are sometimes cleaner.

I did not follow Brietlings, but much appreciate your points.

Originally Posted by Johny

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

John,

just let it go.

there's just too much going on with your rant and you're going to get time-out.

I felt I needed to air it out. You may be right. I guess I'll find out. Thanks for your warning. Much appreciate it.

Originally Posted by MonBK

I'm not trying to belittle the OP's post but the watchout section is there for a reason and we have been trying for years to help out.

MonBK: I do realize that and was making my posts in the same vein. Or was trying to. Thanks for your input. We may disagree from time to time, but I do enjoy your posts.

Originally Posted by Danex

I support you John. I believe it is correct for you to share your views on eBay and I have taken them to heart. As a newby, I think an eBay Rolex purchase would be a nightmare for me. A Rolex purchase is something very special. A part of the value is the experience. Any worries or concerns about authenticity subtract in a big way. For me, the eBay marketplace is not suitable. I consider it a gamble.

Thank you Danex. We can agree to agree

[Johny]

Originally Posted by MonBK

I'm not trying to belittle the OP's post but the watchout section is there for a reason and we have been trying for years to help out.

I never assumed that you were

[locutus49]

Originally Posted by Johny

I never assumed that you were

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Johny

I never assumed that you were

I know.

[Chrispare]

John I do think you are right
I think Rolex vintage is a very dangereuse world ...too many fakes even in well known auction houses or second hand dealers
Expertise is really really needed in that field

[Zoran]

Hi John,

You are entitled to your opinion, no one is obliged to follow your advice or agree.
I can see where you are coming from, and I have read some of your advice/comments in the Watch Out section. I honestly never took offense or thought anything about it, so I don't see why you feel you have to explain yourself so vigorously.

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

John,

just let it go.

there's just too much going on with your rant and you're going to get time-out.

CJ,
I would love to know why he would get time-out?
Is there something we should know?

[Johny]

Originally Posted by MonBK

I know.

[nickb732]

Hello John, nice to see you used the exact words from my conversation with Mon.. I was responding to your post that virtually every Rolex on eBay was fake, so.. that did seem like a rather serious allegation. Plus, I still disagree with your estimate that 50% of the Rolexes on eBay are fake. That would imply that for every 100 Rolex watches sold on eBay, 50 are fake.

[nickb732]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Yes, I have been accused of waging a vendetta against eBay for posting a few comments on the Fake threads suggesting buyers WHO LACK EXPERTISE should avoid buying their first Rolex on eBay.

Vendetta, Jihad, war!!! Let me explain my posts. And I invite you to respond, but please remain civil.

First, I do realize that genuine Rolexes are sold on eBay, sometimes by TRF members. I don't know the numbers, but let's assume for the sake of discussion that 50% of Rolexes sold on eBay are genuine. I believe I'm being generous.

That means that a significant percentage of Rolexes sold on ebay are fake, or franken-Rolexes. Please go to the Watchout sub-Forum and check out how many of the fakes are from eBay. One or two, I would wager. Anyway, it will give you a rough idea of the scale of the problem.

My posts ALWAYS contain a qualification that if a buyer is not an expert or possesses expertise, he should avoid buying his vintage Rolex off eBay. I do not offer advice to experienced buyers. YOU may be very honest and experienced in buying and selling on eBay, but many buyers have little money and no experience. Is eBay the place you would advise them to risk their savings on?

New buyers, frequently ones who have saved up for their first Rolex, come to our site for advice and a stamp of authenticity on an eBay watch he has his eye on. I feel it can be helpful to suggest these non-expert buyers be cautious when buying pre-owned Rolexes off an auction site well known to sell fakes of many luxury goods. I never tell people NOT to buy, just to be cautious or to avoid buying "vintage Rolexes" off eBay if they are inexperienced.

You may disagree, and feel that buyers should buy what they want, and since some sellers on eBay are trusted sellers, that it follows that most or all Rolexes on ebay are genuine.

I think we are helping inexperienced buyers by steering them towards ADs or trusted TRF sellers (which I always do).

So if that is a vendetta, so be it. But I never made a slanderous or false allegation against any legitimate or trusted seller on eBay. eBay is a publicly traded company and I believe they could be doing much more to ensure their luxury goods are legitimate. They could hire a watch expert to review all luxury watches proposed for auction. That would at least show credibility.

Bottom Line: TRF should be, and is to a large extent, helping inexperienced buyers buy their first Rolex from legitimate sellers. And help them buy genuine Rolexes. Many will ignore our advice. But it is not a crime or vendetta to help people with a financially important decision.

I have to add, that is a false equivalence. If most of the WatchOut fakes are from eBay, that means that some fakes are sold on eBay, not that most watches on eBay are fake. Additionally, there are a lot of fakes on Craigslist as well but most people can't be bothered to look at every individual local website because they don't have general classifieds like eBay.

[bradj]

Originally Posted by nickb732

Plus, I still disagree with your estimate that 50% of the Rolexes on eBay are fake. That would imply that for every 100 Rolex watches sold on eBay, 50 are fake.

Woooohhh Look at the big brain on Nick!

I have sold over a 1000 watch straps on ebay, typically with no trouble. However some items seem to draw the scammers out. Things like watches, cell phones etc. Ebay and Paypal are typically always looking out for the buyers in most cases, however I've never had a good feeling dealing with individual without a history of selling high end items.

I agree that if you've found your way here, the best advice anyone could receive is work with a trusted seller, or visit and AD.

[Welshwatchman]

Bit of a storm in a teacup, I reckon.

[locutus49]

Thanks for your comment. Look, eBay is a great place for sellers and buyers of many, many items. Real items.

My point is that when you are talking thousands of dollars, and the prospective buyer sometimes says he has been saving for years for a Rolex, that we might steer him towards a venue where his chances of buying a genuine watch are high. Like a trusted TRF seller, or an AD (unlikely if they have limited funds).

From the perspective of an inexperienced buyer, many of these fakes (seen on WatchOut) look really good, and great deals for the money. They look real to me.

Originally Posted by bradj

Woooohhh Look at the big brain on Nick!

I have sold over a 1000 watch straps on ebay, typically with no trouble. However some items seem to draw the scammers out. Things like watches, cell phones etc. Ebay and Paypal are typically always looking out for the buyers in most cases, however I've never had a good feeling dealing with individual without a history of selling high end items.

I agree that if you've found your way here, the best advice anyone could receive is work with a trusted seller, or visit and AD.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Thanks for your comment. Look, eBay is a great place for sellers and buyers of many, many items. Real items.

My point is that when you are talking thousands of dollars, and the prospective buyer sometimes says he has been saving for years for a Rolex, that we might steer him towards a venue where his chances of buying a genuine watch are high. Like a trusted TRF seller, or an AD (unlikely if they have limited funds).

From the perspective of an inexperienced buyer, many of these fakes (seen on WatchOut) look really good, and great deals for the money. They look real to me.

that's all you really needed to say in the opening post.

[Rockrolex]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

Bit of a storm in a teacup, I reckon.

On this side of the pond, Paul, we tend to call it a tempest in a teapot.

But whatever we call it, while John may have overblown it a bit, he has the right idea that at least some Rolexes offered on e-bay are fakes and should be avoided like the plague.

[Knappo 1307]

[jvmartin]

Ebay is a great place to buy if you are well versed in Rolex watches and can scrutinize details (i.e. model numbers, clasp codes, end piece numbers, etc.), know the potential mickey mousing that can go on behind the scenes and can spot it on a listing (i.e. aftermarket dials, bands, etc.), are confident in qualifying a seller, and even after all that, have the patience to deal with a potential problem and can stand to lose the cash you are spending without it ruining your life.

I have known buyers who did their due diligence and scrutinized photos and descriptions only to receive a straight up Chinese fake (the seller merely used someone else's photos and description). However, they paid with an AMEX card through Paypal and several weeks later received their money back after filing disputes with both companies. If this kind of situation is too much to bear, stay away from lesser known sellers. If you absolutely demand a 100% flawless purchase with no risk whatsoever, stay away from eBay and buy from an AD.

Buying from well established sellers on Ebay (or TRF) you're more than likely in good hands barring a foul up in the delivery of the watch. Buying from an established "Mickey Mouse" seller, know what you are getting into or make sure you do not have the highest standards in regards to all parts being authentic. Scrutinize these listings like any other and know that words like aftermarket, custom, Italian-made, etc. are sure signs of a non genuine part. However, if you are okay with an aftermarket diamond bezel and have an independent watchmaker who can authenticate and maintain your timepiece, an aftermarket add on is not the end of the world and not a sure sign of a fraudster.

I disagree that half of the watches on Ebay are fake though there are a handful that do sneak through and run their full course. However, I would say that more than half of the watches on eBay are overpriced, incorrectly described, or lacking in their descriptions. I have seen too many listing where descriptions are stolen from similar but not necessarily the same timepiece. I have also seen many listing with incorrect dial, band, and bezel information (especially engine turned bezels described as 18k White Gold). And many many listings where a stretched band is described as having "a little stretch". I also love seeing listings where the seller admits to not knowing much about the watch and puts it on the buyer that they are buying at their own risk.

eBay actually does have certain standards and limitations in place for sellers, particularly newer sellers, regarding the sale of Rolex watches. They are also quick to limit the account of a seller that sells too much, too fast, too soon. I would love to know how the "eBay Police" does their investigating and choosing who to shut down. I have known many honest sellers who were limited without having any open cases or issues in their transactions.

[locutus49]

Thanks for the comments.

Look, it is Sunday on this side of the pond and what is Sunday without a little drama?

And this thread is relatively tame: no personal attacks or name-calling. You should see some of the other websites I belong to (can't mention them). They are vulgar, and largely male reproductive organ measuring contests. TRF is genteel by comparison. Now excuse me while I sip my white wine

Originally Posted by Rockrolex

On this side of the pond, Paul, we tend to call it a tempest in a teapot.

But whatever we call it, while John may have overblown it a bit, he has the right idea that at least some Rolexes offered on e-bay are fakes and should be avoided like the plague.

[BOA]

jvmartin — excellent post!

[AK797]

I agree Ebay is only for those with a lot of knowledge and patience. I was recently looking for an Hemes belt and as they are so expensive I thought I could save a lot with an unworn/hardly worn one from Ebay but despite looking for a month I didn't see one that looked real to me and in that time I reported over thirty and all got removed.

[Silvio Mosiello]

Originally Posted by locutus49

Thanks for the comments.



Look, it is Sunday on this side of the pond and what is Sunday without a little drama?



And this thread is relatively tame: no personal attacks or name-calling. You should see some of the other websites I belong to (can't mention them). They are vulgar, and largely male reproductive organ measuring contests. TRF is genteel by comparison. Now excuse me while I sip my white wine

HA! Like a bawsss


Sent from my Motorola Razor

[Rootbeer]

Ebay's very complicated for buyers of Rolexes. If you're a complicated buyer. Or simple if you're a simple buyer.

If you're a complicated buyer that demands that everything be original, date-authentic, unpolished and A1 then you must learn a lot. A new lexicon - factory, custom, aftermarket, Italian et al all have exclusive meanings on ebay Rolexworld. Plus you've got to count those links, check the b & p and of course due dil on the seller. Oh, and those seller's that are 'Rolex Specialists' have no actual connection with Rolex.

If you're a simple buyer and want something that says Rolex on the (neon) dial, has a Rolex movement, a couple of carats of junk quality diamonds and comes with a meaningless insurance appraisal for mega bucks, eBay has a ton of those.

I doubt it's fair to say that most Rolexes on ebay are fake and certainly not fair to say they virtually all are. But if authenticity is important to you ebay is indeed a tough minefield to navigate.

And of course there's the straight-up fraudulent listings that they guys on this forum do an excellent job of catching.....