Quick hand switch. Beware!

[007timer]

This is one of my first posts on this forum. Consider this to be public service announcement.

A little background. I have owned a few Rolex, Omega, Breitling and other watches over the years. I am familiar with the new and second hand markets.

In January of this year, I saw an ad on Craigslist for a Rolex Submariner 116610LN. The ad stated that it was a 2015 watch with no box & papers. After making contact with the seller I agreed on a price of $5,000. However a condition of my purchase is to have the watch inspected by a Rolex watchmaker that has over 15 years of servicing Rolex watches.

The kid showed up with the watch "on belay of his dad". Handed the watch to the watchmaker and he inspected every aspect of the watch. Clasp, links, bracelet, bezel, case, and opened the back and inspected the gears and movement. EVERYTHING checked out 100%. To the extent that my watch maker said "if you don't end up buying it, I will" absolutely good clean watch with no issues whatsoever.

The seller claimed that his Dad really wanted a little more money that what we agreed on and wanted to call him to make sure it's ok. He made the call and said. Ok. He got paid, I got the watch and I wore for 9 months. Fast forward to last week. I had an opportunity to buy a PP Nautilus Moonphase watch. Went to my jeweler to authenticate when he asked me about my Sub. I gaveit to him for a quick cleaning while I was there, that's when he came back saying "this watch is off" it looks right but something is not quiet right. Asked if the watch ever left my possession or if anyone serviced it, the answer was no. He asked if he can open the watch and that's when we discovered that I had been taken. Back in January, when the watch maker handed the watch back on the counter, he switched the watch with a fake one. Not having any reason to re-check my watch it went unnoticed for 9 whole months. Again, I have 4 other Rolex watches at home and I never suspected it. It's a $1,250 fake watch. Even the movement is an exact copy. The watch maker showed it to two other guys who have less experience and at first glance they both said yes it's real until they started to notice things like the quality of the finish on the movement and the top of the screws. Very subtle and easy to miss. All the markings were correct, stamps and numbers are all present. This is very scary that they are getting this good at faking these watches. I took every precaution I can and the fact that he put his hands on it on the counter in front of cost me the losses.

Advice. If you buy used, follow all the precautions. But from now on, if anyone touches the watch after it's been authenticated, have it checked again.

Good luck and be careful out there.

[tamiya]

I'd be curious to see some pics of your piece :/ did it keep time well whilst you wore it?

Have heard there's replica/clones of 3135 movt but have never come across any yet in person. (Then again not likely to find them in the circles I mosh with nor actively looking around backstreets of Asia either)

APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR DISCUSSING FAKES, y'all.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by tamiya

I'd be curious to see some pics of your piece :/ did it keep time well whilst you wore it?

Have heard there's replica/clones of 3135 movt but have never come across any yet in person. (Then again not likely to find them in the circles I mosh with nor actively looking around backstreets of Asia either)

APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR DISCUSSING FAKES, y'all.

I will open the backhand take a picture. I'll post it. Not to discuss fakes. But to bring awareness. I would hate for anyone to experience what I just went through

[007timer]

Originally Posted by tamiya

I'd be curious to see some pics of your piece :/ did it keep time well whilst you wore it?

Have heard there's replica/clones of 3135 movt but have never come across any yet in person. (Then again not likely to find them in the circles I mosh with nor actively looking around backstreets of Asia either)

APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR DISCUSSING FAKES, y'all.

Here you go. Just got home from work

[007timer]

A couple more pix

[crowncollection]

Just terrible imho


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[SG56]

WOW!

I'm sorry to hear that and thank you for sharing your story!

[uncleluck]

What's the chances of a scamming kid having a real one though? Isn't it more likely the watchmaker originally opened it and saw the Rolex movement and said it was fine... Then since has found out that they can copy the movement? I know a lot of people that just say "take the back off and you'll know" but I bet a lot of them wouldn't be expecting a near identical fake movement.

You said it yourself, he showed it to two other watchmakers there and they said it was real. My money is on him more likely becoming wise to these $1250 near perfect fakes since the last time he saw it.

[Danny83]

I doubt this

[007timer]

Originally Posted by Danny83

I doubt this

What are you doubting?

[imperio]

Sorry to hear of your situation. One prevention measure you could take up going forward is asking for the serial # of the watch before you meet up with the seller and match it with the watch you send for authentication and the watch in your hands as you hand over the money. If not the full serial #, at least the last 4 digits or every other character.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by imperio

Sorry to hear of your situation. One prevention measure you could take up going forward is asking for the serial # of the watch before you meet up with the seller and match it with the watch you send for authentication and the watch in your hands as you hand over the money. If not the full serial #, at least the last 4 digits or every other character.

I should have checked the Serial before and after. But who knows if these guys requested a clone with the serial of a real Rolex. I have trust issues now.

[southtexas]

Which watchmaker authenticated the first time?

Did the original watchmaker switch out the movement during his inspection? Did he just miss the fact that it was a fake?

Or did the kid do a switch while he was on the phone after a real one had been inspected?

I'm confused, but I'm also tired after a long day.


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[007timer]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Which watchmaker authenticated the first time?

Did the original watchmaker switch out the movement during his inspection? Did he just miss the fact that it was a fake?

Or did the kid do a switch while he was on the phone after a real one had been inspected?

I'm confused, but I'm also tired after a long day.


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The kid switched the watches after authentication. The watch maker did everything in front of me. It never left my sight when he had it. But the kid had it after.

[dysondiver]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Which watchmaker authenticated the first time?

Did the original watchmaker switch out the movement during his inspection? Did he just miss the fact that it was a fake?

Or did the kid do a switch while he was on the phone after a real one had been inspected?

I'm confused, but I'm also tired after a long day.


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me too . ill keep reading ,,
ok , kept reading , and im still not seeing how it all happened ,,

[tamiya]

Neat pics, much appreciated.

The 116610 inscription, is that Lasered? Etched vs mechanical engraving/gouging.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by tamiya

Neat pics, much appreciated.

The 116610 inscription, is that Lasered? Etched vs mechanical engraving/gouging.

It appears lasered.

[GLADIATOR]

Movement surely FAKE.
LEC on sapphire gives it away too.
adam

[007timer]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Movement surely FAKE.
LEC on sapphire gives it away too.
adam

Thank you. I never opened it myself after it was checked until last night. I had no reason to. Now I have a very expensive paperweight.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by 007timer

Thank you. I never opened it myself after it was checked until last night. I had no reason to. Now I have a very expensive paperweight.

Sorry to that.
A

[michaelodonnell123]

"A little background. I have owned a few Rolex, Omega, Breitling and other watches over the years. I am familiar with the new and second hand markets."..

Then you should have known better than to browse the ads on Craigslist?

"In January of this year, I saw an ad on Craigslist for a Rolex Submariner 116610LN. The ad stated that it was a 2015 watch with no box & papers."

...Then why did you buy it? A newer watch should have everything with it. Including box, papers and an original receipt.

"After making contact with the seller I agreed on a price of $5,000..." It its too good to be true....

"The kid showed up with the watch "on belay of his dad". ...and you gave a kid your money? Seriously?

The whole transaction from beginning to end was a recipe for disaster. Buy new from an AD is my advice.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by michaelodonnell123

"A little background. I have owned a few Rolex, Omega, Breitling and other watches over the years. I am familiar with the new and second hand markets."..

Then you should have known better than to browse the ads on Craigslist?
CL is a marketplace, yes there is junk but I also sold watches and other items on there legitimately and without incident in the past.

"In January of this year, I saw an ad on Craigslist for a Rolex Submariner 116610LN. The ad stated that it was a 2015 watch with no box & papers."

...Then why did you buy it? A newer watch should have everything with it. Including box, papers and an original receipt. Not everyone keeps these items, I did when I bought mine new.

"After making contact with the seller I agreed on a price of $5,000..." It its too good to be true....[COLOR="red"There is truth in this. The asking price was higher, but since the box and papers were missing I adjusted the offer price to offset the missing items. Still, it was a flag nonetheless [/COLOR]

"The kid showed up with the watch "on belay of his dad". ...and you gave a kid your money? Seriously? The recipient of the funds is not the issue, it could have been a dog in a clown suit, why would that matter? I only cared about the watch, if it was a 50 year old in a suit would that have made a difference? I don't think so

The whole transaction from beginning to end was a recipe for disaster. Buy new from an AD is my advice.

hindsight is 20/20 I did take every precaution buying a second hand watch and got screwed in the process.

I can appreciate the points being made here, unfortunately I can't go back in time to punch the kid (mid 20's) in the face and get my money back. All I can do is hope for my day in court to watch them go to jail for screwing people over.

[imperio]

Originally Posted by 007timer

hindsight is 20/20 I did take every precaution buying a second hand watch and got screwed in the process.

I can appreciate the points being made here, unfortunately I can't go back in time to punch the kid (mid 20's) in the face and get my money back. All I can do is hope for my day in court to watch them go to jail for screwing people over.

You say he's in his mid 20's and you're in SoCal... wouldn't happen to be the same group as the one described in this thread would it - https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=555646

The seller also posted up a reward offered ad on CL with the supposed thief's photo - https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/...264635254.html

There is also a Facebook link to the thief/thief's friend somewhere in that ad.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by imperio

You say he's in his mid 20's and you're in SoCal... wouldn't happen to be the same group as the one described in this thread would it - https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=555646

The seller also posted up a reward offered ad on CL with the supposed thief's photo - https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/...264635254.html

There is also a Facebook link to the thief/thief's friend somewhere in that ad.

I would not be surprised if they are all connected. But a different guy. He was a white kid, then built and a little taller than the rst pictured in the CL post.

[chuckblocker]

It's not the kid that scammed him, it's the watch guy he brought it in to have it checked out. He swapped the kid's real one for a fugazzi. Really sucks if I understand it right. That's why i always try to auth myself :(, many scumbags around.

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by chuckblocker

It's not the kid that scammed him, it's the watch guy he brought it in to have it checked out. He swapped the kid's real one for a fugazzi. Really sucks if I understand it right. That's why i always try to auth myself :(, many scumbags around.

Wrong. OP states "The kid switched the watches after authentication. The watch maker did everything in front of me. It never left my sight when he had it. But the kid had it after."
Kid switched watch when he went to 'confirm' price with 'Dad'.

[mfnj]

sucks big time. it could have been the kid or the watch maker or it could have been both of them acting together.

[RHJ]

Reading this thread I see the following possibilities

1) the kid did it - but if he was so well organized it would have been a lot better to ask around 6500 for being credible and in the tale it wasn't mentioned, that he took the watch back in hand
2) the kid and the watchmaker did it together - we don't know, HOW the watchmaker was choosen
3) the OP wants to see how good is the fake and/or searches a watchmaker with which he can create the con described

I'm missing another possibilty ?

P.S.: Sorry for the mistrust in mankind

[CorradoBrit]

Originally Posted by RHJ

3) the OP wants to see how good is the fake and/or searches a watchmaker with which he can create the con described

I'm missing another possibilty ?

P.S.: Sorry for the mistrust in mankind

Hadn't thought of the market research aspect. Where better than a Rolex enthusiast forum to understand where improvements need to be made by the unscrupulous. I find it hard to believe that someone with experience owning and handling genuine pieces would not have figured out something was amiss 9 months later. The machining can't be equivalent on either the case, dial or bracelet.

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by RHJ

Reading this thread I see the following possibilities

1) the kid did it - but if he was so well organized it would have been a lot better to ask around 6500 for being credible and in the tale it wasn't mentioned, that he took the watch back in hand
2) the kid and the watchmaker did it together - we don't know, HOW the watchmaker was choosen
3) the OP wants to see how good is the fake and/or searches a watchmaker with which he can create the con described

I'm missing another possibilty ?

P.S.: Sorry for the mistrust in mankind

4) Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick?