When grey dealers overstep the mark

[Ruud Van Driver]

Having a mooch on some grey dealers' websites and I saw this:

http://www.watchfinder.co.uk/Patek%2...096/item/97763

I know this piece is very difficult to obtain and I know that there are premiums to be paid to jump the queues but 50% over retail for a one year old watch? Wrong. Just, wrong. Quite frankly, these people are taking the piss and this is why I would never deal with them.

DavidSW can source a brand new one for less (or at least he could when I contacted him earlier this year). That speaks volumes for both him and Watchfinder.

[padi56]

Would agree but while there are many with more money than sense that will pay these crazy prices it will remain the norm in all watch brands.

[tyler1980]

i see it as less of an issue as WF is a grey dealer, not also a PP AD. So you know what they are doing and where they are sourcing the watches IE from an AD or a middle man who buys at an AD at retail prices.

The thread going on in the Patek forum is worse. There is an official PP AD's that also deals in grey market watches. That is bad as where are they getting the watches? From themselves? They sell at comparable prices as that example on WF, but could be buying them at AD margins directly from PP, not retail like WF.

One is very clearly a grey dealer and the other, i don't know what they are but apparently you can be both AD and grey dealer at the same time. I would pick WF every time over that.

[ejvette]

Ive seen a number of ads in our classified for the SS SkyD in the 22K range for a watch that retails in the 14K range hitting that +- %50 markup.

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

i see it as less of an issue as WF is a grey dealer, not also a PP AD. So you know what they are doing and where they are sourcing the watches IE from an AD or a middle man who buys at an AD at retail prices.

The thread going on in the Patek forum is worse. There is an official PP AD's that also deals in grey market watches. That is bad as where are they getting the watches? From themselves? They sell at comparable prices as that example on WF, but could be buying them at AD margins directly from PP, not retail like WF.

One is very clearly a grey dealer and the other, i don't know what they are but apparently you can be both AD and grey dealer at the same time. I would pick WF every time over that.

I'm not ok with any of it but one TRF trusted seller I spoke to qualified his premium by saying that he had to pay a premium himself to obtain the piece.

I'm ok with the premium to a certain extent but not when WF are charging 50% for a used piece when David will get you a brand new one for less.

I take your point over picking WF over the dodgy AD but I would pick neither and buy from David, even with the crap exchange rate

Originally Posted by ejvette

Ive seen a number of ads in our classified for the SS SkyD in the 22K range for a watch that retails in the 14K range hitting that +- %50 markup.

Fair point Ed, but I have two counter points. Firstly the SkyD is BNIB (and the Daytonas are there, thereabouts) and the one in the ad above is one year old. Secondly, DavidSW can get a brand new PP for less money than those thieving toerags at WF. I'd expect them to be wearing a mask and pointing an unmentionable at me if I walked in to buy the Patek. In fact, I'd ask them too. Might as well make it authentic if they're robbing me

[Abdullah71601]

Gray prices have been going up lately, even David's. There are some references selling above retail in the For Sale section that I've seen in ADs recently. To Mon's point in another thread, some people have more money than sense, and as long as those people or willing to throw too much money at a watch they could obtain with a few phone calls the market will continue to inflate.

[AK797]

WF are almost a monopoly in the UK now, they advertise regularly on TV and have multiple outlets so they also have a lot of new non-WIS customers who would never before have dreamed of selling or buying their watch through the post. And so they behave as all powerful monopolies do, just like Rolex do with their supply games and Hollywood moguls with aspiring actresses.

[Cru Jones]

Hmmmm....Patek shopping are we, Ruud?? ;-)

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Hmmmm....Patek shopping are we, Ruud?? ;-)

Now stop that, young man! I know your game, Mr Jones

I was actually looking for the price of a solid gold Aquanaut because of an advert I saw on a bus shelter out here. It’s a man playing happy families with his kids by the piano. He’s wearing a gold Aquanaut and I wondered how much one of those weapons run. That’s all. Then my eyes nearly fell out of my head when I saw the price of the SS version

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

That’s all.

Right, I've heard this one before....

[Tony64]

If a grey is actually able to sell at that price then they haven't overstepped the mark, they've established it. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Now when AD's get involved.... that's another matter altogether.

[Etschell]

simple solution is to put the money in the bank and put your name on a wait list for 3-5 years. youll easily be able to get one in that time frame and make money while you wait.

[Patton250]

If Patek flooded the market with the 5711 the craze for them would end overnight. The 5711 is an extremely cool piece but it ain’t 30k cool. Not by a long shot. IMHO

Having said that Patek will not flood the market with them so the craze will continue because that’s human nature and the grey market will capitalize off it. That also is human nature. It’s sucks.

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Etschell

simple solution is to put the money in the bank and put your name on a wait list for 3-5 years. youll easily be able to get one in that time frame and make money while you wait.

As I said above, I don’t want one. I was looking for the price of the gold one that I saw on the silly advert. For the price of the Aquanaut, I could have a SkyD and a 533.

The thought of buying a Rolex and a PAM over an Aquanaut will give some of you the creeping geebies but that is what I would do because those are the references that would make me grin the widest

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Right, I've heard this one before....

Nope, I mean it this time. Honest.

Originally Posted by Tony64

If a grey is actually able to sell at that price then they haven't overstepped the mark, they've established it. Nothing wrong with that IMO.

Now when AD's get involved.... that's another matter altogether.

They probably will sell it and it’s certianly not illegal but I go back to my original point that flogging a one year old watch at that price is extortionate

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

Nope, I mean it this time. Honest.

Just teasing, mate. Those Patek ads, while a bit cheesy at times, can definitely get anyone thinking, me included (hello 5712).

[Chewbacca]

From my perspective on Rolex.

I believe smarter people than us at Rolex and AD's weighed the risks of the grey realm but, I agree that it sucks when you see these markups but, an AD sells to greys for a reason. They usually package hot sellers with poor ones. If an AD is willing to risk goodwill and negative comments, maybe the problem is also Rolex and their demands on AD's? I don't believe for a second that Rolex (or PP or others) can't trace every single watch back to the original importer, and I bet they're OK with it if it keeps ad's open and stock moving.

I believe it's Rolex, greys and our fault in the end. Not to mention the Rolex licensed importers and local sovereign laws. It's a mess.

Open online ordering and at the least shed light on the process. The fact Rolex hasn't, tells me they're OK with the process.

[Etschell]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

As I said above, I don’t want one. I was looking for the price of the gold one that I saw on the silly advert. For the price of the Aquanaut, I could have a SkyD and a 533.

The thought of buying a Rolex and a PAM over an Aquanaut will give some of you the creeping geebies but that is what I would do because those are the references that would make me grin the widest

if you can find a sky dweller at msrp, not 18 to 20k.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by Ruud Van Driver

As I said above, I don’t want one. I was looking for the price of the gold one that I saw on the silly advert. For the price of the Aquanaut, I could have a SkyD and a 533.

The thought of buying a Rolex and a PAM over an Aquanaut will give some of you the creeping geebies but that is what I would do because those are the references that would make me grin the widest

As nice as PP watches are, the ads are total fantasy. Legacy, family, permanence, respect, meaning, success -- they press every emotional button they want to press

The best thing someone can leave their kids is not a watch. It's 1) a good upbringing & education and 2) money ... in that order. Without #1 they'll waste #2

[SG56]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Gray prices have been going up lately, even David's. There are some references selling above retail in the For Sale section that I've seen in ADs recently. To Mon's point in another thread, some people have more money than sense, and as long as those people or willing to throw too much money at a watch they could obtain with a few phone calls the market will continue to inflate.

Yep, makes no sense to me.
SubC NIB for $600 more than retail. Current post on TRF.
Last i checked, they are available at ADs.


Why would one buy this and not from an AD? It makes no sense.

[RW16610]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

As nice as PP watches are, the ads are total fantasy. Legacy, family, permanence, respect, meaning, success -- they press every emotional button they want to press

The best thing someone can leave their kids is not a watch. It's 1) a good upbringing & education and 2) money ... in that order. Without #1 they'll waste #2

Totally agree with that

[NAVY]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

As nice as PP watches are, the ads are total fantasy. Legacy, family, permanence, respect, meaning, success -- they press every emotional button they want to press

The best thing someone can leave their kids is not a watch. It's 1) a good upbringing & education and 2) money ... in that order. Without #1 they'll waste #2

All ads for luxury items are total fantasy - and we buy into it in varying degrees.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Patton250

If Patek flooded the market with the 5711 the craze for them would end overnight. The 5711 is an extremely cool piece but it ain’t 30k cool. Not by a long shot. IMHO

Having said that Patek will not flood the market with them so the craze will continue because that’s human nature and the grey market will capitalize off it. That also is human nature. It’s sucks.

True.

What I don't "get" is why Rolex and Patek put their second market in hands of "Grey's".... Only reason for this is the limited supply. I get limited supply, but making a 4 year waiting list for a watch is just ridiculous.

Me...? I'd get something else, but so many just need to have the latest thing. On the other hand, the Patek 5711 isn't exactly the latest thing...

[AK797]

Originally Posted by bayerische

True.

What I don't "get" is why Rolex and Patek put their second market in hands of "Grey's".... Only reason for this is the limited supply. I get limited supply, but making a 4 year waiting list for a watch is just ridiculous.

Me...? I'd get something else, but so many just need to have the latest thing. On the other hand, the Patek 5711 isn't exactly the latest thing...

The problem is Thierry Stern has signalled he wants to end the 5711 so cue a feeding frenzy which as you say mainly benefits the greys, and at these exorbitant prices they are making more margin than PP who made the damn watches! Thierry should have kept quiet on this ambition and just let supply fall off if that is their plan.

[FTX I]

Things are really weird lately. It's the worst scenario I've witnessed in the last four years since I joined this forum. Glad I'm not in the market for anything.

[77T]

Whenever there’s a loss of equilibrium in the supply/demand curve you should expect prices to climb whether at Authorized or Secondary channels.

The ironic thing is how the AD has little input in the choice of pieces that are actually shipped to them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by NAVY

All ads for luxury items are total fantasy - and we buy into it in varying degrees.

Yes, none of us are immune marketing But some of it feels especially cheap and manipulative -- like De Beers and their "2 months' salary" ads

[tng11]

The market for SS pieces from Rolex, AP and PP has gone off the charts in the last few months. I'll admit that I'm also participating in the feeding frenzy as well - I'm paying top dollar for pieces I wouldn't have considered buying a year ago. I have a bad feeling I may lose my shirt, but I don't care either as I'm getting enjoyment of out my new pieces too.

Outside of this narrow group of SS pieces though, I think the market is acting pretty normal, which is to say, pretty slow. I've seen lots of PM pieces on the market for months even after multiple rounds of price reductions. Breguet, VC, GP, etc are just doing as terribly on the secondary market as they've always been.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by FTX I

Things are really weird lately. It's the worst scenario I've witnessed in the last four years since I joined this forum. Glad I'm not in the market for anything.

Originally Posted by tng11

The market for SS pieces from Rolex, AP and PP has gone off the charts in the last few months. I'll admit that I'm also participating in the feeding frenzy as well - I'm paying top dollar for pieces I wouldn't have considered buying a year ago. I have a bad feeling I may lose my shirt, but I don't care either as I'm getting enjoyment of out my new pieces too.

Outside of this narrow group of SS pieces though, I think the market is acting pretty normal, which is to say, pretty slow. I've seen lots of PM pieces on the market for months even after multiple rounds of price reductions. Breguet, VC, GP, etc are just doing as terribly on the secondary market as they've always been.

Has been crazy recently, feels like the dot com boom all over again, a rising tide seems to be lifting all half-decent boats.

[Ruud Van Driver]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Just teasing, mate. Those Patek ads, while a bit cheesy at times, can definitely get anyone thinking, me included (hello 5712).

Yeah, right. I know you too well, young man!

You’re right, though. Whoever’s in charge at Patek’s marketing and advertising is seriously earning their potatoes.

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

As nice as PP watches are, the ads are total fantasy. Legacy, family, permanence, respect, meaning, success -- they press every emotional button they want to press

The best thing someone can leave their kids is not a watch. It's 1) a good upbringing & education and 2) money ... in that order. Without #1 they'll waste #2

Totally agree with this. However, we have no children so can you see my dilemma here?