Rolex 1603 Authentication - some concerns

[Season]

Evening chaps,

Saw this online. I enjoy testing my fake spotting abilities, but I suck with Rolex. To me, everything looks in order. The markers all seem legit. What bothers me is the SWISS on the dial, I was under the impression vintage DJs from the 70s (which I think this is) used Tritium. So it should read T Swiss T or similar.
Sorry for any blurry images, they are not mine, just what was posted online.
In addition, i believe the date wheel is slightly misaligned. Hard to tell, but it looks like it good be. However, I also understand the teeth on these date wheels often went with age, so perhaps it's of need of a service.

Thanks
Season

[usling15]

Did the 7 in the date window tip over on its' side ??

[GLADIATOR]

Its all fake

[Season]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Its all fake

I'd love to get a breakdown on some areas specifically that are clearly fake. Would you mind?

[antrolexsub]

Replacement dial. Can't make out if it's a pie pan dial, which it should be, doesn't look like it is but I'm on a phone browser so not 100%. All ok other than that.

[Season]

Originally Posted by antrolexsub

Replacement dial. Can't make out if it's a pie pan dial, which it should be, doesn't look like it is but I'm on a phone browser so not 100%. All ok other than that.

I think this too.

Curious. So this dial could either be a fake Rolex dial, a refinished service dial or just a straight up service dial - is that correct?

if so, how do you tell these things? is it a case of removing the movement and inspecting the dial back?

You can tell i'm new to this right?

[crowncollection]

Dial is refinished, datewheel is not original. The rest looks good, nice case imho it could be brought back all depends on price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by Season

I'd love to get a breakdown on some areas specifically that are clearly fake. Would you mind?

My response was stupid, addin 2+2 and coming up with 1

My apologies
adam

[Season]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

My response was stupid, addin 2+2 and coming up with 1

My apologies
adam

No worries chap. Thanks for your reply.

[Season]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

Dial is refinished, datewheel is not original. The rest looks good, nice case imho it could be brought back all depends on price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for your reply.

So, let's say you are correct (which I believe you could be, by the way.) What's the deal with getting the dial replaced and the date wheel added + a service? I assume I will have to go through RSC for this. I checked out their site, but couldn't find a contact e-mail (i'm speech impaired.)

Thanks,
Nick

[Dustytrail]

Fun fact

The early 1600 series (I.e. 1960, 1961) had "SWISS" dial so if the serial corresponds to these dates then the dial is likelier to be genuine / non-franken. But in this case, the dial looks EXTREMELY new for its age and the dial doesn't appear to be a pie-pan so red flags are here for being non-original.

1600 series from 1962 and onwards have "T SWISS T" dial until their discontinuation

If you see a 1600 series with "T SWISS MADE T" dial then it is a mid 80s to late 90s tritium service dial (or sometimes, an aftermarket repainted dial as I have seen on eBay). If you see a 1600 series with "SWISS MADE" dial then it's likely to be a superluminova service dial

[CaveDweller]

Originally Posted by Season

Thanks for your reply.

So, let's say you are correct (which I believe you could be, by the way.) What's the deal with getting the dial replaced and the date wheel added + a service? I assume I will have to go through RSC for this. I checked out their site, but couldn't find a contact e-mail (i'm speech impaired.)

Thanks,
Nick

If you do this the Rolex Service Centre (RSC) way, you can simply walk into an “Official” shop that sells Rolexes, and ask for it to be sent to the RSC (which starts in London, and the watch goes to Kent). RSC will then come up with a plan of action and projected costs, which you will then have the opportunity to agree to, or decline. Typically, to service the movement RSC charge “up to” £500, and I’m guessing the date wheel and dial will take it to over a thousand smackers – “if” they have a dial for a watch of that age. If they cannot replace the dial, they are likely to refuse the watch and return it.

The alternative is to source an “Independent”, explain the situation to them (they usually have email), and what you want the watch to look like when it’s finished. They can source a dial (either a genuine one that’s correct for the watch, or a “re-finished Rolex based dial” that’s correct, or any other permutation you can think of). The date wheel is not a problem to find, but it’s unlikely to be “period” correct. Servicing the movement is done “in-house”, and not likely to be significantly cheaper than the RSC, 30 quid for a date wheel that although not perhaps a genuine Rolex part, will look a heck of a lot better – around 300 for the dial (they are not cheap) – so again, your fast approaching a grand worth of work, but in either case, you will have a watch that looks like new.

The difference between the two approaches, is that (if they accept it) the RSC will return the watch with genuine Rolex parts throughout – whereas although the “Independent” can find and use genuine Rolex parts on the movement, your unlikely to get so lucky with the dial and date wheel.

Some people like “all original”, some of the more exacting critics (on here for example) would simply turn their noses up at a “re-dial”, depends on your point of view – and that’s tricky when it comes down to something like a 1603 from the seventies.

On Rolexes from that era, the dial and hands start to show some signs of deterioration, marks on the dial, lume getting “spotty” etc, but not quite enough to warrant replacement. This doesn’t always happen, it very much depends on the individual watch, and the sort of life it’s led. So on a Rolex from the ‘70’s, you can get “good” original condition, or you can get “starting to go” original condition. If you can find a Rolex from that sort of era in near perfect condition, matching patina, nice clear original dial etc, you can expect to pay a premium for the privilege of ownership. If you buy one that’s “starting to go” then the writing is on the wall, and sooner or later, you are going to have to go in there after it, lowering the value of the watch by doing so.

So, let’s look at retail prices (Ebay) for second hand (inevitably) 1603’s. A fully “re-conditioned” 1603, replacement dial, hands, and in some cases non-original bracelets, looking like new - £2500 all day long, and there are loads to choose from. So unless you could get the watch shown in post #1 for a grand, there’s not much point in doing it up.

Now take a look at the watch in my avatar, a 6605, with the 1065 movement, from 1957. Almost 20 years older than your 1603, and with Radium lume, it’s almost inevitable that the dial will have been re-finished to get it to this standard. I’ve seen a few that haven’t been touched, but they’re as scruffy as heck, and no-one wants to wear a scruffy Rolex. On an 18k watch of this nature (butterfly rotor, roulette wheel, date clicks over at midnight), it was one of the first “official” DateJust with the cyclops that Rolex produced, and worth the trouble to get it back to looking like it should. It’s a matter of taste, but everything about that watch just sings to me.

If that watch was from the mid ‘70’s, there’s no way I could show it off in here without some kind of criticism of the dial and hands – but as it’s from the mid ‘50’s, the consensus of opinion is that the end justifies the means. (Rolex wouldn’t touch it as they have run out of parts long ago).

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=521061

Back to your post #10 – it’s a simple case of economics vs the “worthiness” of the target Rolex, and by “worthiness”, it has more to do with the ref than the value. If that was a Sub or a GMT, it would be “worth” taking a close look. But for a fairly common 1603, I would disinclined to entertain it further ……..

[tamiya]

otoh... if it works fine as-is and you like it as-is and the price is cheap enough... no harm buying it to keep your wrist warm.

There's nothing like ownership to educate your eye

[Season]

Originally Posted by CaveDweller

If you do this the Rolex Service Centre (RSC) way, you can simply walk into an “Official” shop that sells Rolexes, and ask for it to be sent to the RSC (which starts in London, and the watch goes to Kent). RSC will then come up with a plan of action and projected costs, which you will then have the opportunity to agree to, or decline. Typically, to service the movement RSC charge “up to” £500, and I’m guessing the date wheel and dial will take it to over a thousand smackers – “if” they have a dial for a watch of that age. If they cannot replace the dial, they are likely to refuse the watch and return it.

The alternative is to source an “Independent”, explain the situation to them (they usually have email), and what you want the watch to look like when it’s finished. They can source a dial (either a genuine one that’s correct for the watch, or a “re-finished Rolex based dial” that’s correct, or any other permutation you can think of). The date wheel is not a problem to find, but it’s unlikely to be “period” correct. Servicing the movement is done “in-house”, and not likely to be significantly cheaper than the RSC, 30 quid for a date wheel that although not perhaps a genuine Rolex part, will look a heck of a lot better – around 300 for the dial (they are not cheap) – so again, your fast approaching a grand worth of work, but in either case, you will have a watch that looks like new.

The difference between the two approaches, is that (if they accept it) the RSC will return the watch with genuine Rolex parts throughout – whereas although the “Independent” can find and use genuine Rolex parts on the movement, your unlikely to get so lucky with the dial and date wheel.

Some people like “all original”, some of the more exacting critics (on here for example) would simply turn their noses up at a “re-dial”, depends on your point of view – and that’s tricky when it comes down to something like a 1603 from the seventies.

On Rolexes from that era, the dial and hands start to show some signs of deterioration, marks on the dial, lume getting “spotty” etc, but not quite enough to warrant replacement. This doesn’t always happen, it very much depends on the individual watch, and the sort of life it’s led. So on a Rolex from the ‘70’s, you can get “good” original condition, or you can get “starting to go” original condition. If you can find a Rolex from that sort of era in near perfect condition, matching patina, nice clear original dial etc, you can expect to pay a premium for the privilege of ownership. If you buy one that’s “starting to go” then the writing is on the wall, and sooner or later, you are going to have to go in there after it, lowering the value of the watch by doing so.

So, let’s look at retail prices (Ebay) for second hand (inevitably) 1603’s. A fully “re-conditioned” 1603, replacement dial, hands, and in some cases non-original bracelets, looking like new - £2500 all day long, and there are loads to choose from. So unless you could get the watch shown in post #1 for a grand, there’s not much point in doing it up.

Now take a look at the watch in my avatar, a 6605, with the 1065 movement, from 1957. Almost 20 years older than your 1603, and with Radium lume, it’s almost inevitable that the dial will have been re-finished to get it to this standard. I’ve seen a few that haven’t been touched, but they’re as scruffy as heck, and no-one wants to wear a scruffy Rolex. On an 18k watch of this nature (butterfly rotor, roulette wheel, date clicks over at midnight), it was one of the first “official” DateJust with the cyclops that Rolex produced, and worth the trouble to get it back to looking like it should. It’s a matter of taste, but everything about that watch just sings to me.

If that watch was from the mid ‘70’s, there’s no way I could show it off in here without some kind of criticism of the dial and hands – but as it’s from the mid ‘50’s, the consensus of opinion is that the end justifies the means. (Rolex wouldn’t touch it as they have run out of parts long ago).

Back to your post #10 – it’s a simple case of economics vs the “worthiness” of the target Rolex, and by “worthiness”, it has more to do with the ref than the value. If that was a Sub or a GMT, it would be “worth” taking a close look. But for a fairly common 1603, I would disinclined to entertain it further ……..

Thank you for such a detailed response full of insight. I really appreciate it.

[CaveDweller]

There are three stages of “Rolex” – an original – a “sort of original” – and a “hybrid”

The problem with owning a Rolex, is that Rolex themselves are such perfectionists at what they do, and inevitably, that comes at a price. Yes, they hold their value, but only until you start switching dials etc out, at which point, you paid a lot of money to devalue the watch. This is particularly true of the 1603, as evidenced by Ebay. Nice watches, look like new – but they’re not quite “right”.

The exception to this “rule”, would be a Sub, or a GMT, where someone had swapped the dial for a completely untouched original Rolex one in better condition, that’s identical in every way to the original. Such a dial would cost around £1000, but worth it in terms of the value of the watch. The idea behind this, is that if even Rolex can’t tell it’s switched (and they’ll go over it with a microscope), you’re good to go. That would be regarded as “original”.

Now we move onto “sort of original”. This one kinda splits into two parts, the first one being “The Rolex Way”. The RSC (for better or for worse), deem it fit to change out the dial or hands sometimes for “service parts”. Service dials and hands are almost immediately picked up on by the “experts” on here, and even if they were put on during a genuine Rolex service, the slight cosmetic differences can affect the end value of the watch (though not by much), but to the serious collector (read “greedy bugger”), if the watch is “totally original, just as the day it was purchased”, it commands a small premium.

The second part of this, is even if the dial has been switched out for an absolutely immaculate original Rolex dial of the same period, but in a different colour, Rolex can tell by the serial number. No big deal for me, but if submitted to RSC for a service, it will bounce just on that one detail. Now, you may consider that such a small detail doesn’t matter, but look at your original post – “If I wanted to send it to Rolex for a service” – that’s when it matters, and you find that your investment isn’t quite what it seems. Like it or not, originality counts when your spending thousands of pounds on a Rolex.

On one hand, the “experts” on here seem to be anal about some of this stuff, but in reality, so is Rolex. Both parties are simply protecting the value of what they have, and what the brand stand for - and that’s “perfection”.

And now we come to the last category – “hybrid” – the “Franken watch”. This refers to a Rolex with so many aftermarket parts that even Rolex would disown it as a child. The 1603’s on Ebay being a prime example. Most of these have genuine Rolex dials, repainted in a different way to the original (big no-no), and with aftermarket bracelets (simply because the seller can get more for the original bracelets if sold separately). Looks good, and that’s typically all they care about. Chuck one of those at the RSC and see what happens …..

The fact that you have found your way onto this forum and asked questions, prompts my response – once you know your ground, you’ll know where to put your feet. Beyond advice on what to look for, I cannot help you with your choice. There are many threads in “General” over “Should I buy this white one or this black one” – “Does this look big on my wrist” – “Your Rolex in the toilet” – you know the routine. The world of vintage Rolex is yours for the taking, and I’m not going to be so arrogant as to suggest that what works for me works for you.

Choose the one that you want (you’ll know when you find it) – and choose once.

Take your time – with “Vintage” there are many more variations – and remember, half the fun is in the “hunt”.

Be patient – you’ll instinctively know where you heart lies ……