1680 Red Submariner questions

[JohnEaton]

I've found an old 2.3 million serial red sub, meters first 200m=660ft, tall acrylic crystal with cyclops, pearl is missing from bezel and bracelet is a 93150 with 501B ends.

Q?: Is this the correct bracelet and ends?

Q?: Crown has triplock markings, is this correct?

I'm guessing 2.3 million serial is around 1968, please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are no boxes, booklets, anchor or paperwork.

I've read Double Red SeaDweller and Red Watches... Is there anything specific I should watch out for before purchasing this Sub?

I'll see about posting photos tomorrow.

Thanks

[mike]

John,

A 93150 is a correct replacement bracelet. It should have 580 endlinks as these are the current replacements. Orginally the watch should have had a 9315 with 280 or 380s.

Triplock markings might indicate a latter replacement as well.

I would put a 2.3 mil. number at around 1969. The earliest meters first I've seen reported is in the 2.1 mil. range.

Try and get good photos of the dial showing the length of "SUBMARINER" as well as showing a long or short f.

Also pay attention to the condition of the case and lugs.

This is one of the most faked pieces out there.

Good luck.

[SLS]

Pics please, this watch already has issues IMO...Sounds like a put together.
Scott

[JohnEaton]

Thank you Mike and SLS, I'll check this thread again in the morning and then head out for a photo session, I should post again tomorrow early afternoon PST. If all is good and we can agree upon a price the Red Sub should be mine by Wednesday.

Thanks TRF and members for helping me out

[onkyo]

Hi, here is what my meters first looks like for reference -->

[JohnEaton]

Thank you Onkyo.

It looked very similar.

It was non-hack, when I pulled the crown out the seconds still moved and would continue to move as long as I moved the minutes clockwise, if I moved the minutes counterclockwise the seconds stopped or would back up as the minute hand backed up. I didn't back up the minutes much, just enough to see what happened. Also I didn't scroll through the dates to see if open or closed 6s or 9s. I will check on that tomorrow.

The seconds had the slightly jerky sweep I'm accustomed to, but it did not sound at all like my 3135 movements... A fast tic tic tic, not a musical ping-ga ping-ga ping-ga.

[mike]

Originally Posted by JohnEaton

Thank you Onkyo.

It looked very similar.

It was non-hack, when I pulled the crown out the seconds still moved and would continue to move as long as I moved the minutes clockwise, if I moved the minutes counterclockwise the seconds stopped or would back up as the minute hand backed up. I didn't back up the minutes much, just enough to see what happened. Also I didn't scroll through the dates to see if open or closed 6s or 9s. I will check on that tomorrow.

The seconds had the slightly jerky sweep I'm accustomed to, but it did not sound at all like my 3135 movements... A fast tic tic tic, not a musical ping-ga ping-ga ping-ga.

That's all correct John. It should have a 15xx slow beat movement, and while not 100% most I've seen are non-hack.

[onkyo]

No problem. The replacement band and endlinks will decrease the value of your piece as well as the 'triple lock' crown (non-original). Collector are very interested in dial and hands matching and original. Box and papers is a big plus and increases the value a lot. Good luck.

[Omega_Precision]

nonetheless, a very nice piece....delgado of TZ has some an interesting site in regards to Red watches.....

[koronet-kid]

the bracelet and crown upgrades are normal rolex service procedure it is nice to have it completely original but whats the point if you cant wear it. these two things will not decrease the value by to much.

regards sean

[watchnut]

Not to go too far off topic, but I've always wondered where you find these old watches? I've thought about haunting estate sales, etc. There was an old watch repairman who lived down the street from me one time and I remember he had an old Rolex of some kind that he said was beyond repair. Wish I had gotten it from him.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by mike

John,

A 93150 is a correct replacement bracelet. It should have 580 endlinks as these are the current replacements. Orginally the watch should have had a 9315 with 280 or 380s.

Triplock markings might indicate a latter replacement as well.

I would put a 2.3 mil. number at around 1969. The earliest meters first I've seen reported is in the 2.1 mil. range.

Try and get good photos of the dial showing the length of "SUBMARINER" as well as showing a long or short f.

Also pay attention to the condition of the case and lugs.

This is one of the most faked pieces out there.

Good luck.

Have to agree with Mike especially the bit about the most faked,for every genuine Red there is at least 10 that are faked.

[Jocke]

I aggree with Mike (as usual) and I will say the 1680's start hack at the end of 1972.

If you think the crystal is too high, just put a bezel or two extra so will it looks better.



You have to be careful there is a lot of fakes aout there, here you can see my genuine one.



Good luck.

Jocke

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by watchnut

Not to go too far off topic, but I've always wondered where you find these old watches? I've thought about haunting estate sales, etc. There was an old watch repairman who lived down the street from me one time and I remember he had an old Rolex of some kind that he said was beyond repair. Wish I had gotten it from him.

1- Vintage Rolex Forum
2- Time Zone
2- Ebay - with extreme caution here!

[watchnut]

Originally Posted by Jocke

I aggree with Mike (as usual) and I will say the 1680's start hack at the end of 1972.

If you think the crystal is too high, just put a bezel or two extra so will it looks better.



You have to be careful there is a lot of fakes aout there, here you can see my genuine one.



Good luck.

Jocke

That triple twist bezel goes just right with the tripilock crown!

[JohnEaton]

I had a bit of Photo Bucket issues, it seems okay now other than loading new. Here are some pics:











I didn't really care for the alignment of the red over print and the tritium lume on the dial and hands seem quite light for a 40 year watch.

BUT, you guys are the experts... Opinions please

More photos this afternoon when I resolve the Photo Bucket problem

[JohnEaton]

Forgot non-quickset for the date, had to rotate 24 hrs per date change, tried the 9 to 12 to 9 to 12 trick didn't work on this one, actually tried to back up date.

All date wheel 6's and 9's closed, I've seen examples of Red Subs that had open 6s and 9s with the exception of 26

Again thanks for your time... I must step away for a few hours but I will be back this evening

John

[Jocke]

When I take a quick look so is my opinion the coronet looks wrong and the red letters
is too fat and too close to each other. Too white index's.

Sorry my friend I got a bad feeling of this one.

I hope Mike jump in and give his opinions.

Good luck.

Jocke

[JimSnyder]

Originally Posted by JohnEaton

I had a bit of Photo Bucket issues, it seems okay now other than loading new. Here are some pics:











I didn't really care for the alignment of the red over print and the tritium lume on the dial and hands seem quite light for a 40 year watch.

BUT, you guys are the experts... Opinions please

More photos this afternoon when I resolve the Photo Bucket problem

Here is a good link about your dial
Check out the first dial http://doubleredseadweller.com/rs1.htm

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by Jocke

When I take a quick look so is my opinion the coronet looks wrong and the red letters
is too fat and too close to each other. Too white index's.

Sorry my friend I got a bad feeling of this one.

I hope Mike jump in and give his opinions.

Good luck.

Jocke

Agree with Jocke here. Coronet is most concerning. Let's get some experts here to chime in.

[TempoKing]

All I know is that I have a pair of 580 endlinks asking me
to find them a good home...lol

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by TempoKing

All I know is that I have a pair of 580 endlinks asking me
to find them a good home...lol

Why not save up for the missing parts?

Jocke

[JimSnyder]

1st pic is your dial. The 2nd pic is a real dial. The Coronet seems to match. The red text is shoter then the depth text and the F on feet goes up and straight over. Your serial number dates it to the correct period. I'd say yours is a authintic meters first dial.

[onkyo]

Thanks Jim!

[JimSnyder]

Originally Posted by onkyo

Thanks Jim!

Yours would be the first of the red dials and more rare then the feet first dials. You have a great Red Sub

[onkyo]

Originally Posted by JimSnyder

Yours would be the first of the red dials and more rare then the feet first dials. You have a great Red Sub

Thanks. I was very fortunate to get it but paid a premium. Its 100% original with b/p.

[mike]

Boy, I have looked at this till I'm blue in the face.

That the markers are rather white really doesn't bother me. There are several known examples that exibit very white markers despite age or having been exposed to a lot of sunlight over the years.

Why this is has been the subject of much speculation and I'm not sure anyone has come up with an explanation that covers all bases. The one I put the most stock in is Rolex dickering with the mix now and again.

In looking at the indices the first thing one considers is a re-lume/re-finish. I don't know this is the case here as the markers exibit some flaking of the tritium (6,7,8) and shrinkage consistent with old tritium (6.9.10 especially) and the "pock markings" of older tritium.

The font at first blush appears odd, but if compared to know examples of the same era doesn't look bad IMHO.

I don't see the serifs of latter meters first dials and the long F seems consistent.



The paint is RED over WHITE again consistent, and the position of the Cs in certified and chronometer appear ok.

Assuming all parts are from the same watch the caseback indicates a date that is again consistent as does the fat font of the bezel insert.

What I find interesting is the closed dates on the date wheel. Again more fuel for the open/closed debate.

I'm with Jim.

[JohnEaton]

Thank you Jim, Jocke, Onkyo and Mike

I just got back in and will see if Photo Bucket is working for me now. If so I'll load a few more pics.

I had read:

1966 to 67 had 200m=660ft
1968 to 69 had 200m=660ft (BOLD)
Mike's photos show this

And:
1970 to late 73 early 74 had 660ft=200m
generally after 74 the "submariner" was white with a few exceptions

Anastasios, if I snag this one I may take you up on the offer, I'll pm you soon.

[JohnEaton]

These loaded easily this time:








I have been waiting on an email with other photos with a different camera and a light box... The email has not yet arrived.

Again thank you all.

John

[JimSnyder]

Originally Posted by JohnEaton

These loaded easily this time:








I have been waiting on an email with other photos with a different camera and a light box... The email has not yet arrived.

Again thank you all.

John

It's got to be original, look at all the crud on it