15407ST Grey Market Price! Is it worth it?

[Hafez]

Hello Guys,

Happy New Years to all of you.

I am writing this to seek your help and advice in a decision that I have to take whithin the coming 48H.

I have been a fan for long time for the AP 15407ST Skeleton. Following each posted picture here on the forum that have been posted for the watch. The open work combination for me is a top notch, though I have an RM 11-03 titanium.

So I finally decided to go for the watch and thus I started my search and discovered that it’s a rare find a really rare find. However, I managed to allocate one at authorize dealer and he just gave me the call that they receive it. The only problem he is asking for 70K USD for the watch! I a, a great client of this AD and yet he is asking for a very high markup.

So I have basically four questions that needs clear replies:

1- should I buy the watch with the high markup while the MSRP is around 45K USD?

2- should I wait for SIHH 2019 new releases or its non-sense!

3- would this watch hold its value with the high premium or not?
4- Does any of you know a better dealer who has a better price for this watch with even a fair premium?

Thanks a lot guys

[Hermann]

I would get the 15407st because it’s a great watch and you don’t know what happens in 2weeks @SIHH.
What should they do better with in this watch? -> nothing it’s perfect, it’s nearly more possible to make a mistake with a new skeleton....

[tyler1980]

seems weird because i have never heard of an AD actually getting a SS 15407. Its not officially a boutique only model but i haven't heard of any AD's selling them. You sure its not an AD selling a pre owned piece?




Has anyone here ever gotten a 15407 from a non boutique AD?

[Hafez]

It’s a boutique in the Middle East :) don’t really want to disclose location and name.

[benlee]

USD70K! That's a crazy price. Has price gone up so much?

BTW, AD and Boutiques actually aren't supposed to sell above MSRP.

[kingofthehill]

With ever more frequent stories of authorised dealers engaging in these or similar business practices, one can easily understand (at least one of the reasons) Audemars Piguet would like to control their own distribution to the customer directly - something that I am supportive of.

With that said and whilst Audemars Piguet undertake the ongoing cull of their authorised dealer network, the prices published on their website are accompanied by the following note, 'authorised retail dealers are free to set the resale price to their customers' - an unfortunate recognition that they do not currently have power over these practices.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by kingofthehill

With ever more frequent stories of authorised dealers engaging in these or similar business practices, one can easily understand (at least one of the reasons) Audemars Piguet would like to control their own distribution to the customer directly - something that I am supportive of.

With that said and whilst Audemars Piguet undertake the ongoing cull of their authorised dealer network, the prices published on their website are accompanied by the following note, 'authorised retail dealers are free to set the resale price to their customers' - an unfortunate recognition that they do not currently have power over these practices.

in this case its AP directly doing it... if the OP's story is accurate. Boutiques are controlled by the brand and are the only ones getting 15407 in SS

Ive absolutely heard the spend XXX requirement to get one, so in a sense i guess i would rather they just sell above retail than make you buy a tourbillon watch first. Its ironic though because its Manufacture Recommended retail price and if the manufacture controlled points of sale are selling for market price it renders the entire concept of a recommended price useless. We are not talking about an independent jeweler that happens to carry AP. Its actually AP

I guess there are some boutiques that are independent, but most are brand owned. Its my understanding that the non AP boutiques are being phased out and don't get the same stock the proper boutiques do anyway. Looks like all the middle east boutiques are AP operated... ones that are not like the one in LA is listed as AP boutique BY Westime. Im not 100% sure, but that is my understanding

[Fat_ninja]

When i go to the boutique they say its a boutique piece. When I go to an AD they just say allocations have been sold out. Im also still going to try to get one :). But i would not pay mark up no matter what.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Fat_ninja

When i go to the boutique they say its a boutique piece. When I go to an AD they just say allocations have been sold out. Im also still going to try to get one :). But i would not pay mark up no matter what.

ive yet to see a confirmed incoming from an AD, there may be but i haven't seen one. I know when Marcus was an AD they got one, but they were also the UK distributor not AP themselves at the time.... lets exclude the boutiques operated by AD's like westime

Im genuinely curious if any owners on the forum got an SS 15407 from an AD.

[Hermann]

I don’t think that somebody get his 15407st from a AD.
The 15407ST is a amazing piece

[AK797]

Price is on the high side for me, altho in all likelihood it will continue to rise further.

[Eagleeye1]

I can say regardless of the price I’ve had the piece for a week and it’s like a piece of art.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Eagleeye1

I can say regardless of the price I’ve had the piece for a week and it’s like a piece of art.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i don't think the grey market price is unreasonable actually, its that nice. Plenty of AP's or Patek's cost more at retail and there isnt that much gold or platinum content to justify it.

Id rather pay 70k for a 15407 than the same amount for a gold ROO or a patek 5905P at roughly similar retail prices.

Had that been the listed RRP to begin with, i don't think there would be all that much pushback and especially so because there are not many openworked watches like that and on that level to compare it to. Chronographs or Annual Calendars are a dime a dozen and most brands sell those.

[GB-man]

If you’re offended then don’t buy it. If you aren’t then buy it. I’d pass as it sets a precedent for you paying over retail from this AD.

[kingofthehill]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

in this case its AP directly doing it... if the OP's story is accurate.

Personally, I struggle to believe that Audemars Piguet itself would undertake this practice directly.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by kingofthehill

Personally, I struggle to believe that Audemars Piguet itself would undertake this practice directly.

i have no idea... just saying he said boutique and all the boutiques in the middle east appear to be AP controlled.

I totally believe the spend requirement as thats not new and many people have commented on that, Asia in particular. Charging over RRP, who knows. I don't

[Burlington]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

i have no idea... just saying he said boutique and all the boutiques in the middle east appear to be AP controlled.

At first it was AD, then boutique. I think once the OP comes back on, by boutique he may have meant as in ‘shop’.

[Hafez]

Actually most boutiques in the Middle East are not controled by AP. And as said I. Previous replies the MSRP price is indicative only. Hence, let’s not discuss the legality of the act and the legal form of the seller.

I actually need a clear reply to my 4 questions more than discussing whether the boutique or AD is allowed to put a markup or not. As the fact is he is asking for 70K for the watch and it sells well I merge Middle East for 75K.

1- should I buy with the high markup?
2- wait SHH 2019?
3- will it hold value with the high premium am paying?
4-can angine allocate another one brand new for a better price?

Thanks a lot

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Hafez

Actually most boutiques in the Middle East are not controled by AP.

who owns them?

Anyone?

I don't know. On the website the AD boutiques seem to be indicated as such. I assume when its not qualified with an AD name, its AP.

No one is saying it's illegal. We are trying to figure out whats going on.. because its not unheard of for an AD to do that, it would be more rare if AP said that. Naming the AD isnt even important just trying to deduce if it was an independent AD or not

1- should I buy with the high markup? I think its probably worth it
2- wait SHH 2019? I would not if you like the watch
3- will it hold value with the high premium am paying? you wont make money i suspect
4-can angine allocate another one brand new for a better price? its a hard watch to get, and usually you need to be a big time AP client to get offered one to begin with, so paying market price isnt the worst option since you are getting it new and not second hand

[Hafez]

Independatley controlled companies owns the shops that has an agency agreement directly with AP, Rolex or Patek. So from the outside you see a Rolex Boutique, which is actually owned and controlled by an independent owner/ company not by Rolex.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Hafez

Independatley controlled companies owns the shops that has an agency agreement directly with AP, Rolex or Patek. So from the outside you see a Rolex Boutique, which is actually owned and controlled by an independent owner/ company not by Rolex.

All rolex boutiques, minus one in geneva are independent AD's. Almost all AP boutiques are owned by the brand themselves. its different.

All Patek AD's minus the 3 salons are independent AD's.

hence why the questions... If someone said the Patek salon said XXX thats different than the Patek AD said XXX
Its also why AP has boutique only models. They don't have to wholesale to AD's popular watches because the margins are better selling them themselves. Rolex or Patek do not have boutique only models because it really doesn't matter either way what AD sells them because they are pretty much all ADs.

[Hafez]

As far as in know none are directly owned by any AP, Rolex or Patek in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan...

[Hafez]

This begs the question: is the 15407ST boutique only model? Obviously now that’s the case?

[kingofthehill]

Originally Posted by Hafez

As far as in know none are directly owned by any AP, Rolex or Patek in Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan...

Both Audemars Piguet and Patek Philippe own certain of their points of sale, with the former moving to a (near) exclusive owned-distribution model.

[mobster600]

1-No
2-yes
3- no
4- yes

[zahain]

The 15407ST (maybe not the rose gold version) is FOR SURE AP BOUTIQUE ONLY. The only non boutique who ive seen get one (early on when they were announced) was the AD in Mexico City Bergers Joyeros. If you want one in 1-2 yrs time you need to spend approx above $70k US (or maybe a bit less and a good sales rep as someone here as recently got one with buying only just a royal oak chrono rg blue dial 2 yrs ago). If you want it within 12 months you have to spend over 100k which is usually 1 watch like a tourbillon (the UK boutique in London are rolling with that bundle, not sure if that's changed now but that was in MAY/JUNE).

AP boutiques in Middle east, specifically owned by Ahmed Seddiqi and Sons in Dubai when it came to establishing an AP owned boutique ran into a issue. Since they could not take away the extremely large AD status since in U.A.E whoever owns the license is the only one who can carry the brand. This is why there is only one ferrari dealership who owns it all and ect on all other luxury brands. So in response to this, they are refusing to send 15407ST & OR version to them.

I do not like anything from AP except the royal oak 15407st / 41mm line as everything offshore is way too large for my wrist. That being said, i believe in current market they are moving at the $75-78k US range. I would say it is reasonable due to the high demand, an approximation that only 200-300 are made a year that paying anything below 73-74k US is worth it. It is a huge premium approx 20k+ US but the AP game is probably when it comes to this reference and a 15202ST worse than a nautilus. If you are being offered for 70k US, that is fine but ensure you actually physically see the watch, its warranty card and match its caseback serial with the papers. I would not pay a AD (if that's the case and not a grey dealer) the money upfront. If you can pull off offshores and like other models, i would suggest going down establishing a relationship and buying watches from a boutique. But people have ran the numbers anyway. If you were to buy lets say 3-4 watches up to the value of 100k lets say, the depreciation on those watches would come to or past the premium for the 15407ST so it's up to morals then. You can't buy standard 15400 in steel as those sell anyway, they want you to buy the models sitting.

They priced the steel way too low but they didn't know the market. The previous 39mm wasn't a huge amazing sale success so they priced reasonably. This reference should of started at the $55-60k range not $44,100.

Buy it at 70k and if it really is an AD who sourced it then you will know as when you register it online, it will have your date of purchase as the warranty starting. This will help in finally finding out if an AD whom is not operated/independently owned by AP itself is getting this watch. Personally i think the AD is sourcing it from a grey and selling it to you but you'll know when there are no blue and green stickers on the front and back of bracelet, a clear wrapping on the case and blue stickers on the clasp inner. The watch is worth 70k. There is nothing comparable and to many looks like a tourbillon. Stunning gold balance bridge with amazing openworked finish with the best case/bracelet in terms of finish and style. No need to baby this watch

[porschejeff]

A stunning watch indeed. A big premium, but look what Patek premiums are these days. I guess if you want to play, you've got to pay.

[Gravity]

Worth every penny. Grab it!

[glocker]

@Gravity. Wow very nice shot!

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by glocker

@Gravity. Wow very nice shot!

Thx. Snapped that one this year at art basel MIA. Was also nice getting free admission to the show and VIP AP lounge via my AP invite. Great AP experience there. Was surprised even their jaded staff and techs had starry eyes when they saw the 15407 :)