16700 GMT Master Coke - Worried about authenticity - Please help!

[VacherObsessive]

Good afternoon

I recently put down a hefty deposit on a GMT Master 1 16700 Coke for my wife for our/her 5th anniversary (her choice), original snap from my phone is below. we went into the store in Bond Street (London) and tried on a number of pieces that my wife had in mind and she went for this. can't take any more pics than the attachment below at present as the watch is still in the store as I got the balance on finance so that has to clear. we got it at a fair price which I thought was good after checking all over Chrono and elsewhere for comparison, condition was beautiful as well with 1 or 2 minor dings but I don't mind as I'm sure she'll make some of her own, so she can wear it without worrying. it was the best priced one in Europe from a bricks and mortar dealer, and a dealer that we know and is not far from our house.

I was watching some vids today to get up to speed on the Coke, and I noticed some things which did confuse me as the ones posted were slightly different looking, especially the number 22. I then realised that the slightly fatter numbers were ok for this reference as it was a difference between GMT 1 and 2. I'm still not 100% though

secondly, I then noticed on a forum blog post here that the GMT Master 1 ref 16700 was only produced from 1988 to 1999. Whereas the listing for this was a 1987 model

So I'm now panicking that is this actually a different model (maybe a black GMT 1 with the bezel replaced?) or they got the ref wrong? I asked specifically in the store on all the models that my wife was trying out: "was anything replaced at all, any service change on the dial or hands etc?" as effectively this is an investment piece, being a Coke and paying a lot of money, more than a new GMT ceramic from the Rolex boutique. he explicitly said no, this and all the other pieces are 100% original. it has box but no papers, so I am taking the stores word on it, as they are meant to be a reputable dealer

please can you comment on your thoughts? I do not want to be in any doubt. if I've bought wrong and you guys think there is anything fishy I will cancel the whole thing.

many thanks

[exador]

The watch is a 16700 but the insert is incorrect. The 16700 only came in Pepsi and Black, not Coke.

[VacherObsessive]

Originally Posted by exador

The watch is a 16700 but the insert is incorrect. The 16700 only came in Pepsi and Black, not Coke.

thank you very much for the quick reply. this is very bad news.


I saw this on bobs watches, a 16700 Coke

https://www.bobswatches.com/rolex-gm...oke-16700.html

nowhere does it say that it is an aftermarket or changed from X into Y (black bezel switched into Coke). is this normal practice ???!!!

[Haywood_Milton]

Inserts are easily changed to owners’ individual tastes and most wearers will have simply chosen what they liked aesthetically when replacing them, probably in ignorance of historic options or simply not caring.

I know this seller. Ask for Rony or Nino; enquire if they will be willing to change it to a Pepsi or an all-black at no cost.

If all else is correct and the price is right, the insert option need not be a big deal.

By the way, never use Chrono24 as a measure of reasonable prices. Most of the watches still on there are unsold for a reason. I subscribe to the view that it is often the place where over-priced or weak watches go to die.

As for a watch being the cheapest at a bricks and mortar store in Europe, that is unlikely. Many don’t use Chrono24.....and may have slightly lower overheads than a prime, central London location!

Haywood

[VacherObsessive]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Inserts are easily changed to owners’ individual tastes and most wearers will have simply chosen what they liked aesthetically when replacing them, probably in ignorance of historic options or simply not caring.

I know this seller. Ask for Rony or Nino; enquire if they will be willing to change it to a Pepsi or an all-black at no cost.

Haywood

Many thanks for the reply. They should have been clear in the add that it is not an original insert to the watch - and at best, when I asked if it was all original he shouldn't have lied (even if by accident at best).

Its my wife's choice of watch, and she doesn't like the Pepsi and the black on black is not her cup of tea. There are literally 100 Pepsi's in bond street right now and she wasn't interested in any of them. these guys were the only store to have 2 Cokes (this pretend one, and a 2005, which was £2k more (maybe for a good reason!)).

Out of everything she tried on over a period of about 6 hours, the Coke nailed it for her as she loves red, and loves the GMT. she hates blue.

I'm in a bit of a sh1t position now. as I can't afford to lay down £2k more outright ontop of the deposit I've already put down. the 2005 Coke in question doesn't have papers either. if it did, I'd go for it and put it on the CC. as if I'm going to be paying £8750 for any watch I want papers. so I'm not really keen on it at that price without the full set. I feel really absolutely f**ked off at present and nowhere to turn

[Haywood_Milton]

Easy, tiger.

Speak to the sellers, who are in my experience nice people.

Many of those GMTs of which you write will have Pepsi inserts because that look is the hottest thing right now, but a number of them would / could correctly have a Coke insert and the dealers would be happy to swap. Many of those watches should be factored back into your considerations.

You could always cast your net wider than London. There could be worthwhile savings...

[Tools]

Originally Posted by VacherObsessive

Many thanks for the reply. They should have been clear in the add that it is not an original insert to the watch - and at best, when I asked if it was all original he shouldn't have lied (even if by accident at best).

. . .

There is no way that any vendor can actually know if "all parts are original", as they have not been in possession of said piece for it's lifetime.

Rest assured that this 16700 did not come from the factory with that bezel insert, but a 50 dollar insert should not be a deal breaker, they are easily replaced. Any GMT can be fitted with a color that pleases your wife (even if not technically correct) so purchase the best example you can find in your price range; change the insert if necessary afterwards.

[Sherbie]

Why not start your search again from scratch? ( and maybe do a little bit more research beforehand, as you should have known that the 16700 ref never came as coke. )

Also, suggest dont pay premium just for a box - papers are what add value, and anyone can buy boxes from ebay etc







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[BigBlue1]

I have to agree with Haywood. Pepsi is the Trend now and they are being swapped left and right. I am a swapper as well, but if I was ever to sell my watch I would dress it with the appropriate insert.
I don’t believe the seller knowingly sold you a watch with the incorrect insert risking his reputation on one watch, but then again now a days nothing surprises me. Maybe this will give you time to save for the watch than financing. If I were you I wouldn’t finance a watch. You never know what lies around the corner.

[VacherObsessive]

Originally Posted by Tools

There is no way that any vendor can actually know if "all parts are original", as they have not been in possession of said piece for it's lifetime.

Rest assured that this 16700 did not come from the factory with that bezel insert

So these guys who have been pro watch dealers for a long time are unaware that a 1987 GMT 1 did not originally come with a Coke bezel?

when I asked the question, he should have said he didn't know. he said it was 100% original. within a few minutes of me asking the question here, I know the answer that it isn't original, and indeed these models did not come with a Coke bezel. therefore this can't be a Coke GMT its just a black/black or Pepsi (who knows) with a potentially an aftermarket Coke bezel added later and the original lost in history.

when we made the transaction I was convinced that we were buying a GMT Coke, not a GMT something else with a Coke added later. this isn't fair in my opinion

just to get my head in order, would it be correct to assume that the only way to buy a legit Coke would be to get the correct model (I have learned via this forum it is only 16710), and have papers that state what it is? or are the papers more generic and do not specify what colour it was at sale? just trying to get my ducks in a row so to speak

her second choice was a ceramic sub. which sickens me to pay a grand or 2 £ RRP for a few year old used model almost out of warranty. but I think id rather have that, than something that has been tampered with.


Trying to rationalise things. for a GMT master 1, the price we paid is a fair price, correct bezel or not. comparing with Chrono24. So no one would ever know if it was a Pepsi or a Black, if it was returned to either bezel somehow at some point in the future. it would be what it would be. the nasty part is that it is a Fact that it never was a Coke, and that is what's on it now. so it looks the part but it is essentially a fraud. with a black bezel or Pepsi bezel on it, it would be correct, but its not the one she wants.

so I'm in a dilemma, keep it and try to live with the fact that it is what it is i.e. a pretend Coke, but still a good looking GMT master 1, as after all its her watch so if she's happy with that then so be it.

or 2, pay £1500 more for a second hand ceramic sub which will make me sick but it will be a piece that she would be happy with, after I tell her the story of the GMT

or 3. cancel the whole thing and don't do business with these people, and go back to square 1, find something else, and potentially cause some dis1tress. as she's looking forward to this piece in 2 weeks time.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

[VacherObsessive]

Originally Posted by Sherbie

Why not start your search again from scratch? ( and maybe do a little bit more research beforehand, as you should have known that the 16700 ref never came as coke. )

thank you. but in my defence, he should be the one first and foremost to know and tell the truth. how is that going to look if I left a review on google that I was mis-sold? its their responsibility to get it right in case the customer finds out

I agree, I shouldn't be so trusting. but these are meant to be a reputable store and I unfortunately put faith in them. as you have suggested, I won't be doing that ever again. so my bad

[VacherObsessive]

Also does anyone have any concerns about the 1987 thing? if the info on this forum says the 16700 was released in 1988?

[Wahlberg]

Why are you worrying so much? Many people love these watches because you can easily switch out the bezel and change it to a coke/pepsi/all black one. As long as the bezel is original, who cares. The watch is real. You rather want him to switch it to a pepsi bezel and raise the price with 500 pounds because those are hotter and more in demand?

I also get the feeling you are thinking too much with your wallet (best price, investment piece, ...) and not because you really want it for the right reasons.

[lee fowler]

One other possibilty is that the original owner had the Coke insert fitted at time of purchase as the 16710 back in the day would have been a tad more expensive.

[Wahlberg]

http://www.gmtmasterhistory.com/gmt-...ref_16700.html

Ref. 16700
Production Period: 1988-1999
Model Name: Rolex GMT Master
Caliber: 3175, 28800A/h, hacking, quickset (direct)
Pressure proof to 100m/330ft
Bracelet: Oyster 78360 and 78790 (Oysterlock starting 1989), Jubilé 62510
Glass: Sapphire crystal
Indexes:
Tritum up to U-Series 1997: T<25 dial
Luminova starting 1998: Swiss dial (variant: Luminova on T<25 dial)


1988 the Ref. 16700 replaced the Ref. 16750. The Ref. 16700 was cheaper compared to the Ref. 16710 which got introduced at the same time.
The caliber 3175 (same functions as the 3075) had still the non-independant hourhand which was the main difference between the Ref. 16700 and the Ref. 16710.

New introduced with this watch:
Sapphire crystal
White gold indexes (altough some predecessors (Ref. 16750) were also already equipped with these).
New case

Date-wheel has vintage open numbers until 1992/1993.

Only available in Stainless Steel.
Bezel colors:
BLRO, Blue/Red aka Pepsi (bleu/rouge), (Bezel 315-16700-6)
LN, Black, (Bezel 315-16700-1)

[BigBlue1]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

Why are you worrying so much? Many people love these watches because you can easily switch out the bezel and change it to a coke/pepsi/all black one. As long as the bezel is original, who cares. The watch is real. You rather want him to switch it to a pepsi bezel and raise the price with 500 pounds because those are hotter and more in demand?

I also get the feeling you are thinking too much with your wallet (best price, investment piece, ...) and not because you really want it for the right reasons.

I agree with this statement. I am not one to tell anyone what to do with their money, but i wouldn’t Finance a watch. You never know what’s around the corner.

[swish77]

Originally Posted by VacherObsessive

Also does anyone have any concerns about the 1987 thing? if the info on this forum says the 16700 was released in 1988?

What's the beginning of the serial number? Dates are approximate. Just because the seller's listing says 1987 doesn't make it so.

Also, the insert issue is minor. Easily changed. Now, if you felt you were given misinformation by the seller, that's a different issue.

[Sherbie]

The insert issue isnt minor IMO - Nowadays, original inserts go for big money

Why would you buy an expensive watch, in central london, with the wrong insert ( rolex or cheap aftermarket) ?

It just doesn’t make sense to me

The watch in question also looks a poor example

You can do a lot better, looking outside london or even further afield - ie usa


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[CPRWATCH]

You already have had some concise and correct replies to your post & to me ,It's more about the authenticity of the watch than the bezel insert , bezel inserts a so easy to replace its unreal . Personally I would go with box & papers that are correct than worry about a incorrect bezel insert that is quite easy to replace if you wanted to in my opinion . To some it's no deal breaker not to have B&P but if your looking to sell somewhere down the line then it really will help .

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by Sherbie

The watch in question also looks a poor example

Why does it look poor?

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Inserts are easily changed to owners’ individual tastes and most wearers will have simply chosen what they liked aesthetically when replacing them, probably in ignorance of historic options or simply not caring.

I know this seller. Ask for Rony or Nino; enquire if they will be willing to change it to a Pepsi or an all-black at no cost.

If all else is correct and the price is right, the insert option need not be a big deal.

By the way, never use Chrono24 as a measure of reasonable prices. Most of the watches still on there are unsold for a reason. I subscribe to the view that it is often the place where over-priced or weak watches go to die.

As for a watch being the cheapest at a bricks and mortar store in Europe, that is unlikely. Many don’t use Chrono24.....and may have slightly lower overheads than a prime, central London location!

Haywood

As above. I also know these guys and would be surprised if they wouldn’t swap a bezel.

[Sherbie]

Looks overpolished to me

Blow up of original photo the OP posted


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[VacherObsessive]

Thanks guys for all of your replies and for all of your help, it is very much appreciated.

I did discuss this with my wife just now and read out all of your replies.

She is of the opinion that although its not technically stock from the factory, she still loves the Coke bezel and wants to keep it that way.

We agreed she can buy an aftermarket but original Pepsi bezel down the line if she ever changes her mind and can put it back to its original state - but right now the Pepsi is not her cup of tea and its so hot and expensive, why bother to change it. everyone wants a Pepsi and you don't see many if any Cokes around so she's happy to stick with this one. she said if anyone was to notice and ask why her GMT Master has the wrong bezel on it, she'll make it a conversation piece out of it. all I can say is bless her!!
so thanks to all of you guys for your help to reassure us


So the panic is over.
I had a look at the price of used Pepsi bezels and I can safely assume the watch shop would rather refund me than switch out the bezel to a Pepsi, as these are going for absolutely huge money used - a lot more than a Coke.

The Watch is in lovely condition for the price, the bezel is as well compared to the ones we checked out together on eBay. so overall, she's happy.

Apologies for any of my rants and panic, I was just a bit upset that they were not straight up from the outset

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by VacherObsessive

she said if anyone was to notice and ask why her GMT Master has the wrong bezel on it, she'll make it a conversation piece out of it

I can't imagine this person exists!

[VacherObsessive]

[BigBlue1]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

I can't imagine this person exists!

Let me see your model number?

[VacherObsessive]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

I can't imagine this person exists!

trust me she does

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by VacherObsessive

Thanks guys for all of your replies and for all of your help, it is very much appreciated.

I did discuss this with my wife just now and read out all of your replies.

She is of the opinion that although its not technically stock from the factory, she still loves the Coke bezel and wants to keep it that way.

We agreed she can buy an aftermarket but original Pepsi bezel down the line if she ever changes her mind and can put it back to its original state - but right now the Pepsi is not her cup of tea and its so hot and expensive, why bother to change it. everyone wants a Pepsi and you don't see many if any Cokes around so she's happy to stick with this one. she said if anyone was to notice and ask why her GMT Master has the wrong bezel on it, she'll make it a conversation piece out of it. all I can say is bless her!!
so thanks to all of you guys for your help to reassure us


So the panic is over.
I had a look at the price of used Pepsi bezels and I can safely assume the watch shop would rather refund me than switch out the bezel to a Pepsi, as these are going for absolutely huge money used - a lot more than a Coke.

The Watch is in lovely condition for the price, the bezel is as well compared to the ones we checked out together on eBay. so overall, she's happy.

Apologies for any of my rants and panic, I was just a bit upset that they were not straight up from the outset

In that case another job done here!! Enjoy and wear in good health.

[koryong]

This reminds me of a recent conversation with a reputable vintage dealer whilst in Hong Kong last month. They are very careful about using "original" in their item description as it leads to misinterpretation, especially with less knowledgable or/and fussy buyers. Original meaning what came from the factory which as some pointed out, is impossible to ascertain, or original as in genuine Rolex replacement parts ?

Anyway, congrats on your new acquisition - it's in lovely condition and certainly a breath of fresh air compared to the common Pepsi.

[Noah860]

Just for correction....yes, 16700’s did come born as cokes. Mine is a 2000 A serial, born and remains a coke. Also Swiss only dial.