'Ooliganism

[Jimbits76]

Just thinking about what Martin said in the champion's league thread.

Is sports hooliganism something that goes on in your part of the world.

In the days of yore, Football hooliganism and "firms" were a big part of the sports culture in the UK. Almost tribal, these firms would fight on match day and often look at taking the "stand" at a ground or a local pub.

Many still brag about it to this day.

What happened at Heysel, had a massive effect on the culture and following the Hillsborough tragedy, changes were made which effectively changed the way the top league game is supported.

Nowadays, with the sanitisation of Football due to the premiership brand and Sky's money, the games have become much more family friendly.

Although it still occurs, it is now not so prominent here...probably more so in Europe to be honest.

In America would guys fight over their love and passion for a baseball/basketball/football team. Has that happened in the past or does it happen today?

Do Australian fans fight over Aussie Rules teams?

Did the "British Disease" infect other sports in other parts of the world?

J

[AJF]

I was told that they do get trouble at LA Raiders games. I was at a San Diego Chargers vs Raiders game a few years back and a fight broke out in the crowd a couple of rows away. The first thing I knew about it was the police were dragging them off.

AJF

[jdc]

I think with todays policing most of the trouble goes on outside the stadia. Not been to a live match for ages, last one at the Withdean, took my daughter, and apart from some swearing it seems a very different experience.
I do find it strange seeing all the forty somethings at televised games shouting and out of control, The lack of youngsters compared to my day reflects the entrance price and now it is not such a working class game.
People who want to make trouble will find a "cause" where-ever. Maybe the reason it is not so associated with football nowadays is because testosterone fueled youngsters cannot afford the entrance prices and the days where you could just turn up and watch a game do not exist anymore with many of the bigger clubs.
Brighton are in the same division as Cardiff and Leeds, when they are in town there is a higher police presence and usually a few arrests.
A true story that ran for a while. A social commentator was invited by a friend to observe the "Nazi" links Millwall were supposed to have. He attended a game against Brighton. After the game he wrote of the disgusting behaviour of the fans chanting "Sieg Heil". Those at the game were puzzled until they worked out it was the Brighton supporters cheering on their team using their nickname, "seagulls"

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by jdc

I think with todays policing most of the trouble goes on outside the stadia. Not been to a live match for ages, last one at the Withdean, took my daughter, and apart from some swearing it seems a very different experience.
I do find it strange seeing all the forty somethings at televised games shouting and out of control, The lack of youngsters compared to my day reflects the entrance price and now it is not such a working class game.
People who want to make trouble will find a "cause" where-ever. Maybe the reason it is not so associated with football nowadays is because testosterone fueled youngsters cannot afford the entrance prices and the days where you could just turn up and watch a game do not exist anymore with many of the bigger clubs.
Brighton are in the same division as Cardiff and Leeds, when they are in town there is a higher police presence and usually a few arrests.
A true story that ran for a while. A social commentator was invited by a friend to observe the "Nazi" links Millwall were supposed to have. He attended a game against Brighton. After the game he wrote of the disgusting behaviour of the fans chanting "Sieg Heil". Those at the game were puzzled until they worked out it was the Brighton supporters cheering on their team using their nickname, "seagulls"

Interesting train of thought regarding the "yoof" troubles in present time linked to the lack of an affordable alternative method of "getting it out of their system"! Perhaps you're on to something there.

Also interesting regarding the millwall/brighton stuff. Perhaps people see only what they want to see?

Jim

[JimSnyder]

Nuff said

[daveathall]

Although I would have loved to take my son to the game, I never did through the fear of exposing him to the violence, my days of yob culture are long gone, the thrill of standing in the home end Kop was almost like a drug to me, remember standing, when Leeds scored, the crush of people as one was forced down the steps.

I suppose I was misguidedly swept away with the "Being part of an irresistible force" I was a young 13 year old kid at the time, far from being a main player, but in my youthful mind I was part of the jigsaw that was integral in protecting my teams honour, at the time I probably thought that it gave me an identity, looking back I can now see that it was actually quite the reverse, I became one of the mindless, nameless idiots who was very brave when there were a lot of us, I was proud of myself at the time, it is not something that I am proud of now.

I joined the army some years later, still wild, still thought I was someone, what an eye opener, thought I was a hard man, soon learned that I wasn't, the football hooligan culture was looked upon with disdain.

There were hard men there that would be the mildest people you could ever wish to meet, really nice people that would rather talk their way out of trouble, these were the people that I would look up too and try to emulate, when trouble came calling in my chosen profession, these were the people that proved to be the calmest in the most demanding of situations, they were the reliable people, the type that one would entrust one's life with, I hope that I became one of them, but that can only be confirmed by the younger soldiers that I hope looked up to me in later years, that's not my call though.

I stayed away from football grounds for years, when I returned it was to last seasons game between Middlesbrough and Man Utd, 2 each, great game, family atmosphere, same again this season, Middlesbrough 0 Chelsea 5, before I met my friend at the ground I went into the McDonald's close by, Middlesbrough and Chelsea fans mixed enjoying each others company with their children in tow, friendly banter but mutual respect.

Would love to see similar things as the trailer parties before the game at American football, would think that it will be years coming to the English game, but from what I have seen we are heading in the right direction.

The other reason I would have liked to take my son to the match at Leeds was that because of that omission he ended up supporting Man Utd, I think he knows that my daughter will be the sole beneficiary to my will, so Steve, my son if you are reading this, you were so close to owning a Rolex, but now so very far away.

[Rockrolex]

In general, I don't think in the States we have the type of behavior in the stands that I've seen on the news at European football matches. Probably the Philadephia Eagles football fans come closest to exhibiting that type of behavior, but even that's relatively mild by comparison.

And, of course, baseball is a slow game of finesse rather than brute force or constant motion, so there's a much more sedate atmosphere at those games.

Personally, I prefer watching baseball to football, even though some have likened it to watching grass grow.

I prefer pro basketball to soccer; although there is constant movement in both games, basketball is more compact. It takes too long for a player to run the length of the soccer field for my taste. Basketball is up and back quickly.

[daveathall]

I dont know the ratio of away fans that frequent the games in the US, but wonder if the very large traveling times has an effect, the cost of travel and time taken is very small when comparing English traveling supporters to their US counterparts.

[Lion]

Jim, I think it doesn't matter where you live, fighting does occur everywhere in all professional sports arenas. Once you mix alcohol with men problems begin to happen. The end result can be horrific. There have been times when after a team has won the championship, rioting and looting have occurred in the winning team's home town. This type of behavior is rare but has happened!!!

[JF23]

Ever been to a Jets vs. Dolphins game? Seen it get ugly...

Nice write up Dave, enjoyed reading the life experiences.

[JimSnyder]

Dare to go to a Cleveland Browns game

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Although I would have loved to take my son to the game, I never did through the fear of exposing him to the violence, my days of yob culture are long gone, the thrill of standing in the home end Kop was almost like a drug to me, remember standing, when Leeds scored, the crush of people as one was forced down the steps.

I suppose I was misguidedly swept away with the "Being part of an irresistible force" I was a young 13 year old kid at the time, far from being a main player, but in my youthful mind I was part of the jigsaw that was integral in protecting my teams honour, at the time I probably thought that it gave me an identity, looking back I can now see that it was actually quite the reverse, I became one of the mindless, nameless idiots who was very brave when there were a lot of us, I was proud of myself at the time, it is not something that I am proud of now.

I joined the army some years later, still wild, still thought I was someone, what an eye opener, thought I was a hard man, soon learned that I wasn't, the football hooligan culture was looked upon with disdain.

There were hard men there that would be the mildest people you could ever wish to meet, really nice people that would rather talk their way out of trouble, these were the people that I would look up too and try to emulate, when trouble came calling in my chosen profession, these were the people that proved to be the calmest in the most demanding of situations, they were the reliable people, the type that one would entrust one's life with, I hope that I became one of them, but that can only be confirmed by the younger soldiers that I hope looked up to me in later years, that's not my call though.

I stayed away from football grounds for years, when I returned it was to last seasons game between Middlesbrough and Man Utd, 2 each, great game, family atmosphere, same again this season, Middlesbrough 0 Chelsea 5, before I met my friend at the ground I went into the McDonald's close by, Middlesbrough and Chelsea fans mixed enjoying each others company with their children in tow, friendly banter but mutual respect.

Would love to see similar things as the trailer parties before the game at American football, would think that it will be years coming to the English game, but from what I have seen we are heading in the right direction.

The other reason I would have liked to take my son to the match at Leeds was that because of that omission he ended up supporting Man Utd, I think he knows that my daughter will be the sole beneficiary to my will, so Steve, my son if you are reading this, you were so close to owning a Rolex, but now so very far away.

What a great post.

You should write a book and I honestly mean that

J

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by Lion

Jim, I think it doesn't matter where you live, fighting does occur everywhere in all professional sports arenas. Once you mix alcohol with men problems begin to happen. The end result can be horrific. There have been times when after a team has won the championship, rioting and looting have occurred in the winning team's home town. This type of behavior is rare but has happened!!!

Leo,

A lot of what happened with UK hooligans was never about alcohol, it was a competition all in itself.

Today you see many of the England yobs and lager louts throwing the plastic tables and chairs around resorts whenever we are in a world cup or whatever but they are a different breed to what many of the "firm" guys were and what they were about.

J

[Jimbits76]

Originally Posted by Rockrolex

And, of course, baseball is a slow game of finesse rather than brute force or constant motion, so there's a much more sedate atmosphere at those games.

Ed, same here with Cricket....I mean the Barmy Army aren't half vocal but they don't go throwing bricks or bottles at the opposition fans.

J

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Leo,

A lot of what happened with UK hooligans was never about alcohol, it was a competition all in itself.

Today you see many of the England yobs and lager louts throwing the plastic tables and chairs around resorts whenever we are in a world cup or whatever but they are a different breed to what many of the "firm" guys were and what they were about.

J

Thank you about the book comment Jim.

I tend to agree, I could go to the football when I was younger, probably expect a bloody nose and a black eye at the most, my loss was someone else's victory, that was at the end of the matter, my ego and the aches and pains would soon mend, nowadays there seems to be a viciousness where the "prize" doesn't seem to be the victory, but the disturbing amount of senseless violence that could be inflicted on a fellow human being, even though that person was no longer able to defend himself.

[BondandBigM]

Originally Posted by daveathall

I stayed away from football grounds for years, when I returned it was to last seasons game between Middlesbrough and Man Utd, 2 each, great game, family atmosphere, same again this season, Middlesbrough 0 Chelsea 5, before I met my friend at the ground I went into the McDonald's close by, Middlesbrough and Chelsea fans mixed enjoying each others company with their children in tow, friendly banter but mutual respect.

Has Boro got any supporters left these days

[redshirt1957]

Wife number two used to get drunk, tie me up, and flail away with a leather riding stick. If that what you guys were talking about. Nothing says love like a donkey punch from you beloved bride.

[redshirt1957]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Thank you about the book comment Jim.

I tend to agree, I could go to the football when I was younger, probably expect a bloody nose and a black eye at the most, my loss was someone else's victory, that was at the end of the matter, my ego and the aches and pains would soon mend, nowadays there seems to be a viciousness where the "prize" doesn't seem to be the victory, but the disturbing amount of senseless violence that could be inflicted on a fellow human being, even though that person was no longer able to defend himself.

Great posts Dave.

[Rockrolex]

Originally Posted by Jimbits76

Ed, same here with Cricket....I mean the Barmy Army aren't half vocal but they don't go throwing bricks or bottles at the opposition fans.

J

Some day you'll have to explain Cricket to me, Jim. JJ once tried to but his bluesy kept getting in the way of a meaningful explanation.

[sini1717]

Originally Posted by daveathall

Although I would have loved to take my son to the game, I never did through the fear of exposing him to the violence, my days of yob culture are long gone, the thrill of standing in the home end Kop was almost like a drug to me, remember standing, when Leeds scored, the crush of people as one was forced down the steps.

I suppose I was misguidedly swept away with the "Being part of an irresistible force" I was a young 13 year old kid at the time, far from being a main player, but in my youthful mind I was part of the jigsaw that was integral in protecting my teams honour, at the time I probably thought that it gave me an identity, looking back I can now see that it was actually quite the reverse, I became one of the mindless, nameless idiots who was very brave when there were a lot of us, I was proud of myself at the time, it is not something that I am proud of now.

I joined the army some years later, still wild, still thought I was someone, what an eye opener, thought I was a hard man, soon learned that I wasn't, the football hooligan culture was looked upon with disdain.

There were hard men there that would be the mildest people you could ever wish to meet, really nice people that would rather talk their way out of trouble, these were the people that I would look up too and try to emulate, when trouble came calling in my chosen profession, these were the people that proved to be the calmest in the most demanding of situations, they were the reliable people, the type that one would entrust one's life with, I hope that I became one of them, but that can only be confirmed by the younger soldiers that I hope looked up to me in later years, that's not my call though.

I stayed away from football grounds for years, when I returned it was to last seasons game between Middlesbrough and Man Utd, 2 each, great game, family atmosphere, same again this season, Middlesbrough 0 Chelsea 5, before I met my friend at the ground I went into the McDonald's close by, Middlesbrough and Chelsea fans mixed enjoying each others company with their children in tow, friendly banter but mutual respect.

Would love to see similar things as the trailer parties before the game at American football, would think that it will be years coming to the English game, but from what I have seen we are heading in the right direction.

The other reason I would have liked to take my son to the match at Leeds was that because of that omission he ended up supporting Man Utd, I think he knows that my daughter will be the sole beneficiary to my will, so Steve, my son if you are reading this, you were so close to owning a Rolex, but now so very far away.

Great post Dave. It seems your son has great taste.

[redshirt1957]

Originally Posted by Rockrolex

Some day you'll have to explain Cricket to me, Jim. JJ once tried to but his bluesy kept getting in the way of a meaningful explanation.

Cricket? Ain't that sumpend you put on a hook and catch panfish with? What is so hard to explain. You take the pointed end and......well you know.

[Rockrolex]

Originally Posted by redshirt1957

Cricket? Ain't that sumpend you put on a hook and catch panfish with? What is so hard to explain. You take the pointed end and......well you know.

Did someone tell you to crawl out from under your rock? Get back to your doublewide until you are summoned.

[redshirt1957]

Originally Posted by Rockrolex

Did someone tell you to crawl out from under your rock? Get back to your doublewide until you are summoned.

So the ringing in my ears ain't the call of the wild? More Budweiser I guess.

[valentine]

Capitals Hockey...season ticketholder...words are always exchanged for rivals...but we keep it at that....never seen anything get physical. hope it never does.

[daveathall]

I went to the Middlesbrough/Man Utd game today.

Took this photo to show my Granddaughter a picture of some horses when she visits on Monday, It was only when I downloaded the photo that I realised that the horses and police were wearing visors and protection, sad, but a reflection of the times, that I didn't even give it a second thought when I took the pic, needles to say I wont be showing Charlotte the photo.

[chu88y]

very little goes on in top flight clubs,but go down a few leagues and you will see it, CCTV has stopped most of it

[Goodwatch]

Jim, you might now call it 'the Dutch disease' Mindless, drunk and full of speed morons who's only goal in life seems to trash each other, innocent bystanders, pubs and private property. They txt each other to meet at a certain point and slug it out, resulting even in fatalities. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with any sport at all and they should be put away for a long time. It takes millions of Euros of tax-payers money to provide for police escorts and to repair street furniture during and after each match. Because of that I haven't attended a match since 1976.

[rik byatt]

In the UK, Football Banning Orders combined with the rise of CCTV coverage (and indeed better designed stadiums) have had an effect in reducing the amount of trouble at grounds. Many of the 'risk' fans have found themselves barred from attending matches. Additionally the football intelligence side of policing is now much better organised - as are their public order tactics (although don't mention the 2008 UEFA cup final lol!).

As always, there is a youth 'risk' element coming through the ranks to take the place of those banned. Individually they are just boys but together the pack mentality and feeling of bravado takes over.

Most trouble now takes place on nearby side streets or back streets in the city centres. With the advent of the internet things are much better organised and with mobile telephones information/fights can be arranged in no time at all.

[SeamasterGMT]

Football hooliganism was widespread throughout the 80's but some of the big firms had their "top lads" sent to prison. Major police operations on the likes of the ICF and HeadHunters. Then, around 1990, everybody got into dance music and started taking E. Suddenly everyone was travelling around the country going to raves, London lads, Manchester, Stoke, Derby...everyone was dancing away on a Saturday night in a field in the middle of nowhere and they all loved each other.

[ratae1950]

I sense there may be a socio-economic factor when comparing major league sports attendance in the USA and the worst days of football hooliganism in England and Scotland. Big football games were 'financially' accessible to the less educated, working class and hot headed youth. Combine this with the boredom of young people living in inner city areas with few available amenities, add various quantities of beer and you have a recipe for violence. I travelled to probably 40 grounds when I was a kid and trouble would usually find my group. The worst places were Forest [I followed Leicester], Leeds, Spurs, Liverpool-if we won, West Ham and Chelsea. Nowadays we 'yobbos' have grown up and had kids etc., and the game day security is much tighter. Things have calmed down at the games. However, these days I note that violent street crime is rife in English cities-gbh and knifings.
My experience of US major league sport attendance is that it is predominantly a middle class and up, audience. Tickets are pricey in New England and the stadia are full. For example the Red Sox have an ongoing, record 500+ full houses. Even though our sports events are calm, we do have extensive inner city violent crime. Unfortunately these crime are often not sever beatings but gun killings. Again, the majority of these crimes are committed by the inner city poor against inner city poor.