When is enough enough?

[hlippy4]

I've been noticing that certain Grey's have been out of control with their pricing. By that I mean the same piece will fluctuate in a week by 10-20% to the downside (obviously not Subs etc.....as a matter of fact let's not include Rolex for this discussion).

So I'm looking at a watch a very reputable grey dealer had in stock. I've done business with the grey before and bought several Rolex watches. Perfect experiences. This was not a Rolex.

The manufacturer said they had it in stock at retail.....I bought from an AD in another state...new model for 15% off......so why is the gray selling at 40% more than I bought it at??? Thousands more than I paid. WHY????....THIS IS INSANE!!!

I was told it was a new hard to get model.....really....the manufacturer had them in stock and the AD had them.....

I'm disgusted....nothing against the grey....but if looking for a sucker is "business"....I'll take my business elsewhere!!!

[vh2k]

I've been noticing that certain watch buyers have been out of control with their spending.

I'm disgusted....nothing against the customers!!!

[spacebjorn]

Interesting. The watch you were able to get at AD, did you have any prior relationship with?

[hlippy4]

Nope......they're in California I'm 3000 miles away....never heard of them before today...but a big company with magnificent giant store.

[Marcjvr]

You wouldn’t complain about the steep price increase if you had already acquired it at MSRP

[hlippy4]

Have no clue what you talking about... bought it for less than MSRP... spend your money as you wish... take a match and burn it... I don't care...but I do care about getting taken.

[drfrankenstein]

I’ve been watching Timepiece Gentleman’s YouTube channel. Although initially I was very against the idea of the secondary market, watching their videos makes me aware of the service they provide. In fact most of the time they are operating on very thin margins. However, the problem with these dealers as far as I can tell, is they basically have the ability to set the market, because they operate as a network. This has been my issue all along as most of the prices listed are not based in reality. Time will tell if these prices hold up, even for high in demand pieces.

[dimag333]

See this with omega, gs and jlc

steve

[RyanJ]

Buyers set the market. People think sellers do but if NO ONE buys at those crazy prices, they will be lowered.

However, there will always be people who care less about money and want what they want right now and will pay whatever price to get it.

[Jack T]

From what I've read, you didn't get taken. You paid below MSRP from an AD, presumably you're happy with the deal.
Then you see a grey dealer selling the same watch for 40% more than you paid; so what? He charges what he wants, you pay what you want or not. I don't see the problem.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

In November I bought a new Polar Explorer at my local AD for retail. A month later I was in the same store and they had the same watch used in the case marked at almost fifty percent more than I paid. I failed to be outraged.

[77T]

Originally Posted by hlippy4

The manufacturer said they had it in stock at retail.....I bought from an AD in another state...new model for 15% off......

What did you get?

The AD must start with MSRP and then negotiate with savvy buyers. The grey marketer can start where they wish.



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[DuckaDiesel]

Originally Posted by drfrankenstein

I’ve been watching Timepiece Gentleman’s YouTube channel. Although initially I was very against the idea of the secondary market, watching their videos makes me aware of the service they provide. In fact most of the time they are operating on very thin margins. However, the problem with these dealers as far as I can tell, is they basically have the ability to set the market, because they operate as a network. This has been my issue all along as most of the prices listed are not based in reality. Time will tell if these prices hold up, even for high in demand pieces.

I totally agree. I also think that there may be a few major dealers that set the price for the rest to follow.
They prolly have the means and connections to buy up most of the stock.
It makes no sense that a watch at 10k retail, smaller dealer needs to pay 17-18k to make a 1k profit.
I am sure that if it was up to them they would buy at 11 and sell at 17-18 but then they wouldnt be able to get away with it.
Then with all the small dealers trading between themselves it’s questionable how many of these get sold to the end user.
Weird market for sure, makes no sense.


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[fskywalker]

Don’t feed the greys in new watches above MSRP ! It’s that simple


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[HJZS2K]

Curious which non Rolex watch you picked up

[drfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by DuckaDiesel

I totally agree. I also think that there may be a few major dealers that set the price for the rest to follow.
They prolly have the means and connections to buy up most of the stock.
It makes no sense that a watch at 10k retail, smaller dealer needs to pay 17-18k to make a 1k profit.
I am sure that if it was up to them they would buy at 11 and sell at 17-18 but then they wouldnt be able to get away with it.
Then with all the small dealers trading between themselves it’s questionable how many of these get sold to the end user.
Weird market for sure, makes no sense.


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From what I gather from watching, seems like they get most of their watches from flippers, they don’t have significant AD relationships. Because even flippers only get so many pieces, and they are “taking the risk,” they are getting the premium. So client buys Batgirl new for $9700+tax and sells it to a dealer for $14,500, making about $3-4K profit and then it’s marked up again by the dealer to the end user another $1k to get to the “market price” of $15,500. What’s interesting though is because they are doing this constantly, they know the prices at which things will move. Also, they know the demand for pieces based on what they are offered. For instance, new Subs are more ubiquitous so dealer prices are dropping. So it is driven by client demand but I’m not sure they have the broader context of the entire market.

[Milibrk@]

Originally Posted by hlippy4

I've been noticing that certain Grey's have been out of control with their pricing. By that I mean the same piece will fluctuate in a week by 10-20% to the downside (obviously not Subs etc.....as a matter of fact let's not include Rolex for this discussion).

So I'm looking at a watch a very reputable grey dealer had in stock. I've done business with the grey before and bought several Rolex watches. Perfect experiences. This was not a Rolex.

The manufacturer said they had it in stock at retail.....I bought from an AD in another state...new model for 15% off......so why is the gray selling at 40% more than I bought it at??? Thousands more than I paid. WHY????....THIS IS INSANE!!!

I was told it was a new hard to get model.....really....the manufacturer had them in stock and the AD had them.....

I'm disgusted....nothing against the grey....but if looking for a sucker is "business"....I'll take my business elsewhere!!!

wowww. you're getting 15% off and grey is selling the same watch at +40% over MSRP. that means you're +60%. Flip it and be happy. why the frown face....

[brucethemanlee]

Originally Posted by hjzs2k

curious which non rolex watch you picked up

+1

[jamesbondOO7]

Two Rolexes were sold in Geneva over the last 2 weeks at 150k and 120k in less than 24 hours. Instagram and less than 24 hours later SOLD in the comments.

[saxo3]

Originally Posted by jamesbondOO7

Two Rolexes were sold in Geneva over the last 2 weeks at 150k and 120k in less than 24 hours.

Which ones and where?

[WalterE]

Originally Posted by Milibrk@

wowww. you're getting 15% off and grey is selling the same watch at +40% over MSRP. that means you're +60%. Flip it and be happy. why the frown face....

Because while no doubt there are great and trustworthy professionals in the secondary market, some of the practices in the grey market are simply despicable from an ethical point of view.

Milking the gullible and stirring up the hype to wind up your "prey" can never be justified in my books.

Nothing against the principles of free market, mind you, but I cannot justify double or triple retail. Perhaps it's my European upbringing...

[airchitect]

Originally Posted by WalterE

Because while no doubt there are great and trustworthy professionals in the secondary market, some of the practices in the grey market are simply despicable from an ethical point of view.

Milking the gullible and stirring up the hype to wind up your "prey" can never be justified in my books.

Nothing against the principles of free market, mind you, but I cannot justify double or triple retail. Perhaps it's my European upbringing...

But it’s not the dealers issue......it’s the idiots willing to pay the price. They are the problem. The greys are really just along for the ride. Only issue here for them is the “network” aspect which creates a bit of a monopoly affect over the whole market.


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[Benzsiam]

If that timepiece is available to everybody at the boutiques/ADs at msrp or lower, I don't think the grey dealer can sell at higher price than msrp+sale tax.

To be fair, you should give the ref. no. of that timepiece?

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by drfrankenstein

From what I gather from watching, seems like they get most of their watches from flippers, they don’t have significant AD relationships. Because even flippers only get so many pieces, and they are “taking the risk,” they are getting the premium. So client buys Batgirl new for $9700+tax and sells it to a dealer for $14,500, making about $3-4K profit and then it’s marked up again by the dealer to the end user another $1k to get to the “market price” of $15,500. What’s interesting though is because they are doing this constantly, they know the prices at which things will move. Also, they know the demand for pieces based on what they are offered. For instance, new Subs are more ubiquitous so dealer prices are dropping. So it is driven by client demand but I’m not sure they have the broader context of the entire market.

Pretty much this.

In his last video he expanded on this a bit and admitted that most AD’s have him blacklisted. His margins indeed do appear to be fairly thin on certain models.

He also mentioned that other gray dealers use a different business model where they almost exclusively buy from AD’s and make their money on the margin as opposed to volume.

[drfrankenstein]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Pretty much this.

In his last video he expanded on this a bit and admitted that most AD’s have him blacklisted. His margins indeed do appear to be fairly thin on certain models.

He also mentioned that other gray dealers use a different business model where they almost exclusively buy from AD’s and make their money on the margin as opposed to volume.

The questions that remains is how they arrive at the sale price. As stated by the OP there are still discrepancies in prices between dealers. I’ve been following the BLNR and Hulk prices closely, as they are the only watches I’m currently interested in and still contend they don’t make sense based on availability, hence the market manipulation.

[Goin2drt]

Originally Posted by RyanJ

Buyers set the market. People think sellers do but if NO ONE buys at those crazy prices, they will be lowered.

However, there will always be people who care less about money and want what they want right now and will pay whatever price to get it.

Amen. I don't care for gray's. I think the AD's aren't much better. I think the model could be fixed and made better. Having said all that the market is what it is and if you want to get mad, get mad at the buyers. The sellers just throw up a price. If someone pays it, why not. I do not blame them one bit.

Been said 1000 times here. If you want to stop the madness, stop buying. Simple supply and demand.

[gold&black]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

In November I bought a new Polar Explorer at my local AD for retail. A month later I was in the same store and they had the same watch used in the case marked at almost fifty percent more than I paid. I failed to be outraged.

[GONZO2LR]

it's this a Rolex forum? He won't even say what OTHER watch he's for still?

[Master_Grogu]

Or do it like me and forgo the hype. I only buy from AD, TT and PM are what I like. I’ll leave SS for the Instagram kids and enjoy something that makes me happy, not the crowd.

[Benzsiam]

I don't blame grey dealers at all, they just try to make a living just like all of us.

If you don't like their prices, don't buy it from them.

There are so many brands many timepieces available in the market for us to shop at msrp or with discount.