Panerai In-House Movements - A PAM of Worms

[sokoloka]

Title credit goes to Perezscope. Some interesting Sunday morning reading:

https://perezcope.com/2021/08/08/pan...-pam-of-worms/

The usual games continue ...

[dandigangi]

That was a rough read but as commonplace as it gets. Makes me think of the same stuff you see with how many companies using engines or majors components from other name brand manufacturers.

I feel like I'm missing something with the "Panerai as a brand started in 1997". Can't seem to find any information on that. Everything points back to the 1800s even if they did use Rolex once upon a time. Anyone know more on that?

[enjoythemusic]

I look forward to Panerai's reply sent to popular timepiece publications.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by sokoloka

Title credit goes to Perezscope. Some interesting Sunday morning reading:

https://perezcope.com/2021/08/08/pan...-pam-of-worms/

The usual games continue ...

I agree. This guy won’t give up.

This is conspiracy theory bunk by one person to launch a social media campaign disguised as a legitimate source to go after Panerai in every way possible. Every story is Panerai did this, Panerai did that. It’s maddening the amount of time this guy spent to push his theories.

I am positive it is the same guy that made it his mission to piss all over Panerai on this forum before he got bounced for doing it. This thread will get closed for promoting his site. It’s tinfoil hat fodder.

[Mystro]

Double

[bonovox]

Originally Posted by dandigangi

That was a rough read but as commonplace as it gets. Makes me think of the same stuff you see with how many companies using engines or majors components from other name brand manufacturers.

I feel like I'm missing something with the "Panerai as a brand started in 1997". Can't seem to find any information on that. Everything points back to the 1800s even if they did use Rolex once upon a time. Anyone know more on that?

I think his point is Richemont acquired Panerai in 1997. Think what you want about this dudes writing, what he uncovers here looks pretty bad.

[RHJ]

He makes strong points here, up to Panerai to respond

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by RHJ

He makes strong points here, up to Panerai to respond

I believe he challenged Panerai on different occasions to the point of a confrontation and they through him out. This is what is fueling his vendetta. Short of legal action by Panerai would be the only time they will address this guy.

[bonovox]

Originally Posted by Mystro

I believe he challenged Panerai on different occasions to the point of a confrontation and they through him out. This is what is fueling his vendetta. Short of legal action by Panerai would be the only time they will address this guy.

Respectfully, what do you dispute in this specific article as false? If some of the larger watch blogs corrected their "in-house" labeling on that particular movement after his findings came to light, aren't they conceding to some extent, he is correct?

[enjoythemusic]

As a member of the press myself (luxury audio... mainly), I believe we can all agree a bit of transparency about movement details from Panerai would be welcome. This is why Panerai needs to give details to publications, and/ or journalists need to do their job.

One valid point he makes within his article is that members of the press have not done a reasonable job at providing movement details either. Usually these details can get quite, well, detailed because the manufacturer is extremely proud of their in-house design and production / watchmaker facility. So the press must do a better job at getting data from Panerai (or state that Panerai refuses to provide any details on their movements).

[kunlun]

Originally Posted by Mystro

I believe he challenged Panerai on different occasions to the point of a confrontation and they through him out. This is what is fueling his vendetta. Short of legal action by Panerai would be the only time they will address this guy.

I need to be honest with you, the article makes real, compelling points and I don't think it can be brushed off.

[Mystro]

Originally Posted by bonovox

Respectfully, what do you dispute in this specific article as false? If some of the larger watch blogs corrected their "in-house" labeling on that particular movement after his findings came to light, aren't they conceding to some extent, he is correct?

I won’t get into his past writings but from all I have read it was enough to dismiss him as not being credible or even remotely a impartial source. His motives and let’s say “questionable” sources tend to be pieced together to what ever to fit his narrative or “theories”. That’s all I will say about the subject of his web site. I am sure Panerai is no saint as is with most companies marketing but this dude is working overtime against anything and everything Panerai he can twist out of focus to come up with a different image of the Panerai devil. Look at his entire body of work and see if you can find a theme. I personally have seen enough red flags from his many other stories of to not follow him down that rabbit hole. Nuff said.

[bonovox]

Originally Posted by Mystro

I won’t get into his past writings but from all I have read it was enough to dismiss him as not being credible or even remotely a impartial source. His motives and let’s say “questionable” sources tend to be pieced together to what ever to fit his narrative or “theories”. That’s all I will say about the subject of his web site. I am sure Panerai is no saint as is with most companies marketing but this dude is working overtime against anything and everything Panerai he can twist out of focus to come up with a different image of the Panerai devil. Look at his entire body of work and see if you can find a theme. I personally have seen enough red flags from his many other stories of to not follow him down that rabbit hole. Nuff said.

Fair enough. I'd encourage you to read the article in question.

[Patton250]

A brutal article. Panerai does seem to be going backwards. I’m personally disappointed in the brand.

[enjoythemusic]

I do like the IWC version's finishing. I guess IWC is a higher end brand than Panerai in the eye of the parent company

[htc8p]

This is bad pr for panerai. But they have already been in a bad position for years leading them to release “cheaper and cheaper” watches


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[hedet]

Great article. Thanks for sharing.


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[Fleetlord]

While I agree Panerai is a big mess at the moment, this guys expose would be like someone going through a bunch of investigation and tests to determine that fruit punch truly does not have any actual fruit juice in it…not even the listed 3%…it’s not really that big of a surprise…

Brands have been doing these shenanigans involving in house movements for a long time now…

[Starwalker]

okay but who cares. Anyone dropping 27K on a gold panerai probably doesn't care either, because if they did, they wouldn't be spending 27k on a panerai LOLLLLLLL!!!!

[Rashid.bk]

That was a great read. I mean even if there’s an agenda, he is still reporting what seems to be facts. Take out the personal stuff that people claim and just digest the information, seems appalling wis don’t care more about this.
I appreciate his research. I would expect this is critically important info for any wis and very important disclosure details that journalist sources should openly be reporting and writing without any fire alarm raising. It should just be listed in their press writings as actual information. The huge problem today is twofold, media or I should say social media sources like Hodinkee or Revolution aren’t legitimate news or information sources like we used to know in past times. While journalists may work there, these are nothing more than paid “influencers” today. We will never get all the facts in real information based on research and knowledge finding, but instead reworked puffed up press materials. And they are compensated for their efforts or more specifically lack there of.
Hodinkee is useless for any real credible unbiased information as most others. It seems the more technology and interconnectivity we have across platforms the less we care about facts. Puffed up press write up from past Basel releases were almost unbearably embarrassing on how much asskissing and false astonishment they showed while handling a watch.

The second issue is the exceedingly high demand that we have today, most don’t care about horology. All they care about is the wrist roll shot. I remember when I got into this hobby/horology there was a lot of talk about movements and jewel counts, incabloc, Kif shock system, silicon hair springs, cotes de Geneve and Patek developed their own quality seal for their very best movements, etc…today few care as long as the watch is cool/appealing to you and generates likes on social media. How many times have you read a post on social media talking about the movement or time keeping.
For example, ‘til this day I have never read one piece of data on how well an RM keeps time. I remember back in the day when you could get a 5711 for $25k and I discovered it didn’t hack, I was like wtf!…and AP RO had hand hand setting that was almost so sloppy that getting the right time when you pushed the crown in was almost luck…they’ve addressed these issues today while many didn’t care, at least we knew.
Today you can post anything on SM and everyone just goes with it. Tell the high demand zombies that have grown dramatically in-house, this and that and they gobble it up.

Looking at how many new watches Panerai releases with “new” fancy materials and they’re covering all their case backs removing hacking, how can anyone really expect they are truly “in-house”. I love Panerai but in moderation and stick to the basics.
In the end I chose references that are simple and don’t mind if the base movement is ETA because I probably honestly trust that more than what Panerai is willing to do for developing a true ground up movement, I just don’t think they want to dump the R&D into that. Much easier to use what the mother ship provides and the hordes won’t really care. Look at what some of the comments here are like. That’s why Panerai will keep doing this.

Meanwhile it’s why I think Rolex is so timeless, basic materials, basic designs, basic movements… all things truly in-house kept simple and it will endure.
Carbotech looks cool but what about in 20-30 years, where are the forged carbon APs….
People don’t care though as most won’t hold a watch that long, today’s climate is about the buzz and flex, then move to the next one.

For me the most exotic I’ll get is titanium, anything beyond that I would look at an RM and I don’t have the kind of money to even walk in the store and ask for a brochure so forget that.



We will

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by Starwalker

okay but who cares. Anyone dropping 27K on a gold panerai probably doesn't care either, because if they did, they wouldn't be spending 27k on a panerai LOLLLLLLL!!!!

You’re absolutely right, no one really cares. I just think while most probably don’t care and because this will be the true outcome, media sources should at least report the facts and do research so they can really inform the public. But alas, I fear even that is futile, that info sounds boring and won’t generate views and traffic that they want.

Regurgitating puffed up press materials “first” and dropping the new new is much more lucrative then on to the next new new. Hypothetically, how many would actually change their purchase decision if they discovered the new Rolex 3235 is really just a 3135 with just another barrel added for extra power reserve.
Some would rumble a little but when they get the AD text they’ll hurry to drop their money. Good friend just bought his first Rolex(126622) and asked him if it was the new movement version, he laughed and said who cares, I don’t even know…..then we spoke briefly about it. He’s so happy to have his watch finally and from an AD.

[Cru Jones]

A more restrained article from Perezscope that lends more credibility to his work.

Richemont has some serious managerial issues.

I remember when Bremont got caught up in fake in-house claims and how it was such a “scandal”. To this day I don’t bother myself reading new watch articles on Bremont. Strange to see Richemont brands getting such a pass.

[rootbeer7]

I take great interest in Jose's articles. I love his attention to detail in all his writing, whether uncovering fakes, frankens, or Panerai's slightly questionable history. I think it's important to have all the facts. To most consumers who want a gold Panerai sports watch, the movement is irrelevant and therefore won't affect their purchasing decision. For us WIS it does make a difference.
Personally I love my honest 112 with decorated eta.

[brandrea]

Is my P3000 a genuine in house Panerai movement?

I hope so

[ganiccus]

Originally Posted by Starwalker

okay but who cares. Anyone dropping 27K on a gold panerai probably doesn't care either, because if they did, they wouldn't be spending 27k on a panerai LOLLLLLLL!!!!

You are right, the guy dropping that kind of money for a gold Panerai probably doesn't care too much about the movement or the dubious history of the brand. However, the guy on a limited budget looking to get the best value for his hard earned money will most likely turn his back and look somewhere else, or at the very least will not be willing to pay the retail price for a product that is not as valuable (horology wise) as advertised.

Panerai really needs to clean up their act when it comes to movement designation, 'in-house' doesn't mean you can go to another brand in the Richemont group to get your movement and make it your own as far as I'm concerned. I don't really mind the bit where they outsource their parts to a third party, just don't make it look like everything is manufactured in your heardquarters like in the WatchAdviser video. Almost all watch brands are guilty of doing that to some extent, even Rolex outsource their hands and their stainless steel case and bracelets outside the company despite claiming that they have their own foundry.

[Starwalker]

Originally Posted by Rashid.bk

The second issue is the exceedingly high demand that we have today, most don’t care about horology. All they care about is the wrist roll shot. I remember when I got into this hobby/horology there was a lot of talk about movements and jewel counts, incabloc, Kif shock system, silicon hair springs, cotes de Geneve and Patek developed their own quality seal for their very best movements, etc…today few care as long as the watch is cool/appealing to you and generates likes on social media. How many times have you read a post on social media talking about the movement or time keeping.
For example, ‘til this day I have never read one piece of data on how well an RM keeps time. I remember back in the day when you could get a 5711 for $25k and I discovered it didn’t hack, I was like wtf!…and AP RO had hand hand setting that was almost so sloppy that getting the right time when you pushed the crown in was almost luck…they’ve addressed these issues today while many didn’t care, at least we knew.


In the end I chose references that are simple and don’t mind if the base movement is ETA because I probably honestly trust that more than what Panerai is willing to do for developing a true ground up movement, I just don’t think they want to dump the R&D into that. Much easier to use what the mother ship provides and the hordes won’t really care. Look at what some of the comments here are like. That’s why Panerai will keep doing this.

Meanwhile it’s why I think Rolex is so timeless, basic materials, basic designs, basic movements… all things truly in-house kept simple and it will endure.
Carbotech looks cool but what about in 20-30 years, where are the forged carbon APs….
People don’t care though as most won’t hold a watch that long, today’s climate is about the buzz and flex, then move to the next one.

I complete agree with you on all these points, the passion is gone. IMO it is absolutely INSANE to see a 5711 at $110,000 and a 5270 at $123,000 - it a sign of the complete brainlessness penetrating the industry.......it's literally like a Mercedes c-class being sold at a premium close to the list price of an S63AMG (oddly enough this analogy is complementary). All logic completely out of the window. I have passed up several times over the AP diver, because they were couldn't align the hour makers, or there were several case of the markers literally falling off, the AP logo becoming unhinged. A good friend of mine had the dual time, and it was a complete lemon. After 2 years of going back and forth with AP, they finally changed the whole movement and it was still a complete POS. Even on the Jumbo, you needed a PhD to set the date, it was insane. Has anyone seen the resale on any of the forged carbon cases? You would even pick it off the floor for free if it was chucked at your head. Patek - all I ever remember about the nautilus is that it was always ugly and Hublot came and filled the void when patek couldn't - literally NO ONE was talking about the Nautilus before 2017 (I am a big fan of the 5712 and Aquanaut). The whole market has pretty much lost the plot. It is no longer enthusiast that are driving the market, the respect for the craft. It is social media and in the influencers. Long term, i think it's brillant, because it makes the application pieces better value. Patek World timer should be 250,000 - 300,000 - 400,000k ....its been sitting around 100k-110k mark for years. cant wait for the day i can pick one up.

[Starwalker]

Originally Posted by ganiccus

You are right, the guy dropping that kind of money for a gold Panerai probably doesn't care too much about the movement or the dubious history of the brand. However, the guy on a limited budget looking to get the best value for his hard earned money will most likely turn his back and look somewhere else, or at the very least will not be willing to pay the retail price for a product that is not as valuable (horology wise) as advertised.

Panerai really needs to clean up their act when it comes to movement designation, 'in-house' doesn't mean you can go to another brand in the Richemont group to get your movement and make it your own as far as I'm concerned. I don't really mind the bit where they outsource their parts to a third party, just don't make it look like everything is manufactured in your heardquarters like in the WatchAdviser video. Almost all watch brands are guilty of doing that to some extent, even Rolex outsource their hands and their stainless steel case and bracelets outside the company despite claiming that they have their own foundry.

The misrepresentation is a big issue. It is unethical and I am glad that they got called out for it. But it also goes to show what a sham the entire industry is when the journalists dont even have the balls/integrity to call them out on it, they're all sycophants. My Clymer afraid that they will yank his AD status? No more collabs with "rake" or "revolution" for Wei Koh?.

[Rashid.bk]

Originally Posted by Starwalker

I complete agree with you on all these points, the passion is gone. IMO it is absolutely INSANE to see a 5711 at $110,000 and a 5270 at $123,000 - it a sign of the complete brainlessness penetrating the industry.......it's literally like a Mercedes c-class being sold at a premium close to the list price of an S63AMG (oddly enough this analogy is complementary). All logic completely out of the window. I have passed up several times over the AP diver, because they were couldn't align the hour makers, or there were several case of the markers literally falling off, the AP logo becoming unhinged. A good friend of mine had the dual time, and it was a complete lemon. After 2 years of going back and forth with AP, they finally changed the whole movement and it was still a complete POS. Even on the Jumbo, you needed a PhD to set the date, it was insane. Has anyone seen the resale on any of the forged carbon cases? You would even pick it off the floor for free if it was chucked at your head. Patek - all I ever remember about the nautilus is that it was always ugly and Hublot came and filled the void when patek couldn't - literally NO ONE was talking about the Nautilus before 2017 (I am a big fan of the 5712 and Aquanaut). The whole market has pretty much lost the plot. It is no longer enthusiast that are driving the market, the respect for the craft. It is social media and in the influencers. Long term, i think it's brillant, because it makes the application pieces better value. Patek World timer should be 250,000 - 300,000 - 400,000k ....its been sitting around 100k-110k mark for years. cant wait for the day i can pick one up.

Thank you, you said it better than me. I had the same thought process when I wanted an AP Diver back in 2015 when you could find it for $12k, thought it was picky members until I handled one in the NY boutique, the hands were super wobbly and I just couldn’t commit. I asked myself, how can anyone own this.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by htc8p

This is bad pr for panerai. But they have already been in a bad position for years leading them to release “cheaper and cheaper” watches.

Raising prices while lowering the value of the internal movement is an interesting business practice and quite profitable for Richemont. We all know Panerai has been doing this for some time.

We have to remember Panerai is a FASHION BRAND nowadays in the eyes of many, and some just don't care either way. In fact it could be a $300 Sellita movement inside for all they care. i was that way with the TRON as knew the movement was low-end without any explanation what-so-ever from Panerai about eliminating the stop-seconds feature in their still unannounced 9010 'Evolution' movement that reduces features and is said to have lower-quality movement finishing.

Panerai was also asked by a leading watch journalist friend of mine about the 9010 'Evolution' movement, Paneri chooses not to disclose movement details on the '9010 'Evolution', which does not even say 9010 Evolution on their website(!) as the company makes zero differential between 9010 movements. This could have legal problems in the future. Some might say this is a very deceptive business practice, and curious if this will legally bite them in various countries in the coming years.

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

While I agree Panerai is a big mess at the moment, this guys expose would be like someone going through a bunch of investigation and tests to determine that fruit punch truly does not have any actual fruit juice in it…not even the listed 3%…it’s not really that big of a surprise…

Is there some legal recourse in Switzerland, or an organization to contact to alert them of Richemont's Panerai brand lowering the reputation of Swiss watch brands via questionable business practices?

Originally Posted by Starwalker

okay but who cares. Anyone dropping 27K on a gold panerai probably doesn't care either, because if they did, they wouldn't be spending 27k on a panerai LOLLLLLLL!!!!

Exactly! Panerai is now a FASHION BRAND in the eyes of many.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Richemont has some serious managerial issues. I remember when Bremont got caught up in fake in-house claims and how it was such a “scandal”. To this day I don’t bother myself reading new watch articles on Bremont. Strange to see Richemont brands getting such a pass.

i have a feeling Richemont knows what's going on, as it has been going on for long enough for them to stop it, IF THEY CHOOSE TO. Obviously we've not heard any word back from Richemont about this new scandal (and the 9010 'Evolution' scandal).

Originally Posted by Starwalker

The misrepresentation is a big issue. It is unethical and I am glad that they got called out for it.

Agreed that Panerai MAY choose to do something, yet their FASHION TIMEPIECES are right now selling so where's their 'insentive' to do anything but continue to devalue their products in the eyes of many while raising prices of their cosumer products.


-------------------

It really is simple, Panerai should do better at disclosing the movements within their products. Even if Richemont's Panerai brand starts migrating to Stellita movements like Bell&Ross... which seems to be the course Richemont's Paneri brand is on at the moment.

Odds are nothing will change unless they are forced to do so (legally or a very strong hit on their 'reputation' that reduces sales to the point of 'pain'). Am not sure if any Swiss authority will do anything unless it becomes a legal matter.

The great news is we have the Internet as we all spread the word about Panerai's refusal to disclose movement details about their products.

We can all also participate in various online forums and social media by posting a link to the OP's article, or at a minimum alert online boards about this situation so those considering Panerai as a brand can be better informed of what they are actually purchasing since Richemonth refuses to have Panerai do anything about their ongoing movement scandals.


-------------

This is all extremely easy for Paneri to 'fix' if they provide honest details to heir customers and journalists the truth about movement details in full.


It seems Panerai is extremey ashamed of their movements nowadays. How else would you explain this situation?

A sad state for Panerai (or any company to be sure), yet when I look at Longine, Tudor, or quite a few other ~$5k timepiece's movements it is painfully obviously Panerai is following down the road of Bell&Ross imho, yet at Panerai's 3x the pricing imho.

Perhaps it is time we start migrating to Bell&Ross? Fantastic timepieces with basically the same visual styling, yet with 'honest' movements and priced reasonably.

[epc2]

I Agree with you and I'm very disappointed that they have not released any info on why they changed the 9010 , I really like a few models that have that mvmt , (1351,1312,1313) , recently I decided to visit a few Panerai boutiques and have heard multiple stories most of them w/o any logic , I think some of them don't even know what they have, of course I acted like I know nothing about Panerai and on one of the boutiques I asked why the 1312 doesn't have the open caseback anymore and their Manager response was , " We decided to make it with a close caseback so when we sell to big corporations they can engrave the watches for their clients and employees" I was like Whaaatt!!!

At another store they told me , you know real dive watches have closed casebacks and when I asked about the seconds hand non hacking they were surprised, at the right price I might still buy one but there's a big price difference between the old ETA pams and the P mvmt models.

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Raising prices while lowering the value of the internal movement is an interesting business practice and quite profitable for Richemont. We all know Panerai has been doing this for some time.

We have to remember Panerai is a FASHION BRAND nowadays in the eyes of many, and some just don't care either way. In fact it could be a $300 Sellita movement inside for all they care. i was that way with the TRON as knew the movement was low-end without any explanation what-so-ever from Panerai about eliminating the stop-seconds feature in their still unannounced 9010 'Evolution' movement that reduces features and is said to have lower-quality movement finishing.

Panerai was also asked by a leading watch journalist friend of mine about the 9010 'Evolution' movement, Paneri chooses not to disclose movement details on the '9010 'Evolution', which does not even say 9010 Evolution on their website(!) as the company makes zero differential between 9010 movements. This could have legal problems in the future. Some might say this is a very deceptive business practice, and curious if this will legally bite them in various countries in the coming years.




Is there some legal recourse in Switzerland, or an organization to contact to alert them of Richemont's Panerai brand lowering the reputation of Swiss watch brands via questionable business practices?




Exactly! Panerai is now a FASHION BRAND in the eyes of many.




i have a feeling Richemont knows what's going on, as it has been going on for long enough for them to stop it, IF THEY CHOOSE TO. Obviously we've not heard any word back from Richemont about this new scandal (and the 9010 'Evolution' scandal).




Agreed that Panerai MAY choose to do something, yet their FASHION TIMEPIECES are right now selling so where's their 'insentive' to do anything but continue to devalue their products in the eyes of many while raising prices of their cosumer products.


-------------------

It really is simple, Panerai should do better at disclosing the movements within their products. Even if Richemont's Panerai brand starts migrating to Stellita movements like Bell&Ross... which seems to be the course Richemont's Paneri brand is on at the moment.

Odds are nothing will change unless they are forced to do so (legally or a very strong hit on their 'reputation' that reduces sales to the point of 'pain'). Am not sure if any Swiss authority will do anything unless it becomes a legal matter.

The great news is we have the Internet as we all spread the word about Panerai's refusal to disclose movement details about their products.

We can all also participate in various online forums and social media by posting a link to the OP's article, or at a minimum alert online boards about this situation so those considering Panerai as a brand can be better informed of what they are actually purchasing since Richemonth refuses to have Panerai do anything about their ongoing movement scandals.


-------------

This is all extremely easy for Paneri to 'fix' if they provide honest details to heir customers and journalists the truth about movement details in full.


It seems Panerai is extremey ashamed of their movements nowadays. How else would you explain this situation?

A sad state for Panerai (or any company to be sure), yet when I look at Longine, Tudor, or quite a few other ~$5k timepiece's movements it is painfully obviously Panerai is following down the road of Bell&Ross imho, yet at Panerai's 3x the pricing imho.

Perhaps it is time we start migrating to Bell&Ross? Fantastic timepieces with basically the same visual styling, yet with 'honest' movements and priced reasonably.

Attachment 1237524