Kering announces the sale of Girard-Perregaux and Ulysse Nardin to their Management

[enjoythemusic]

KERING ANNOUNCES THE SALE OF GIRARD-PERREGAUX AND ULYSSE NARDIN TO THEIR MANAGEMENT

Kering announces the signature of an agreement to sell its entire stake (100%) in Sowind Group SA, which owns the Swiss watch manufacturers Girard-Perregaux and Ulysse Nardin, to its current management.

Full press release at

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-r...anagement.html

[mongrelnomoad]

Well that's a few more into the Indie pile.

I wish them best of luck.

[Cru Jones]

Ultimately, it seems like Kering couldn't figure out how to scale up GP and UN. They definitely tried, though. Some of their halo models were quite elaborate and likely very expensive to produce.

Maybe in the end, GP and UN remaining niche and now independent is better for everyone, Kering included.

Both brands have great history. I wish the new owners the best.

[RobHK]

Very interesting, a lot of AP/PP fans are usually quick to explain their watches are special partly because they are from independent brands. So will GP kick out VC from the holy trinity now? :)

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Ultimately, it seems like Kering couldn't figure out how to scale up GP and UN. They definitely tried, though. Some of their halo models were quite elaborate and likely very expensive to produce.

Maybe in the end, GP and UN remaining niche and now independent is better for everyone, Kering included.

Both brands have great history. I wish the new owners the best.

More like I (genuinely) wish the watches the best in the new owners' care. But I agree: A conglomerate built around name brand fashion (i.e. always looking for ways to lower production costs) should not be in the haute horology business. Economies of scale only work in that industry if it's things like purchase of gold, or movements common across watches/brands.

Originally Posted by RobHK

Very interesting, a lot of AP/PP fans are usually quick to explain their watches are special partly because they are from independent brands. So will GP kick out VC from the holy trinity now? :)

Probably not, as they just aren't that level (at this time). Perhaps, though, GP can differentiate itself from the two other "watchmakers' watchmakers" out there, JLC and Zenith, as the only independent of the three.

[S``]

GP ref 49460 or the 1999 Timezone Chrono was my very first watch bought in 2011....

The brand was already struggling with the distributors selling directly to the gray market. My watch was (I believed 70% off retail) with boxes and unstamped papers...

The movement was in house, but with a DD module for chronograph, not a deal breaker, but realistically at its RRP, crazy asking price lol...

As I observe the general pricing scheme of the entire GP collection... (This was during the time of the Seahawk, 1966), they seem to believe that they are in between PP and AP in terms of product placement... Which is completely delusional when the products were constantly dumped to the gray market...

The Kering takeover happened near to when Luigi Malcuso passed away, and as soon as that happened, Daniel JeanRichard watches were constantly found dumped on discount sites (worse than gray market), and the brand was killed within a couple of years... The direction was clear, move upmarket...

Sofisti was then fired, replaced by Antonio Calce who experimented with the Laureato, I believe it was limited edition of 41, and 38 (???), Again at that time, they could be found brand new at gray market as soon as they were in the store...Calce left soon after... He went to Corum and is now with Grubel Forsey.

By this time, Pruniaux now leads a combined UN/GP group and the entire lineup just got more confusing... An unlimited number of limited editions... Bunch of models to try to ramp up a flailing demand... And what seems to be a reduced investment/commitment from Kering herself... Besides the new Shanghai UN boutique, for GP itself, there was little buzz for the brand since the takeover...

And today here we are... If I was to guess 1.) The management is betting on a quick turnaround and realizing gains within 5 years (ala CVC capital who just sold 25% of Breitling close to what they spent to get 100% of Breitling... Aka 4x paper gains) 2.) Kering is taking over another brand/biz more in line to their core competency rather than watches and needed the funds... 3.) Kering basically admitting that the brands are dead and there's no saving it...

Finally, UN was pretty popular in the CIS market prior to the O&G downturn... Now that the markets there is back up (barring this Ukraine blowup), I wonder if they could post a huge resurgence in the near future...

[enjoythemusic]

Wow, amazing knowledge! Thank you!!!

Posted this on WPS, yet a few weeks back had a discussion with someone very well respected and UN came up. Hmmm, I thought, whatever happened to ??? After our discussion I went to UN's site and OH YEAH, they're the ones who make erotica, the Freak (I recall when it was first launched)...

When my Muse and I were in Singapore I stopped in and was lucky they had in stock the only one I was interested in, the Classico Stranger. Alas, was sooo quiet and wish it had higher SPL output, as wanted to get it while in SG. Just looked, eBay has this $120k piece for $52k.

I truly hope UN pulls it off because they obviously have the build quality, diversity, and talent.

[S``]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Wow, amazing knowledge! Thank you!!!

Posted this on WPS, yet a few weeks back had a discussion with someone very well respected and UN came up. Hmmm, I thought, whatever happened to ??? After our discussion I went to UN's site and OH YEAH, they're the ones who make erotica, the Freak (I recall when it was first launched)...

When my Muse and I were in Singapore I stopped in and was lucky they had in stock the only one I was interested in, the Classico Stranger. Alas, was sooo quiet and wish it had higher SPL output, as wanted to get it while in SG. Just looked, eBay has this $120k piece for $52k.

I truly hope UN pulls it off because they obviously have the build quality, diversity, and talent.

My friend bought this Maxi Marine Chronometer back in 2012 when Rolf Schnyder was still in charge of UN pre Kering... It was 40% off BNIB with stamped booklet from DavidSW... It was a great watch, with ETA 2892 base and modified by UN. Back then, Rolf promised to any UN owners that the movement could be swapped out to a new in house version once the in house UN 118 was ready... We know how that ended ....

Rolf Schnyder passed away, the Mrs sold the company off to Kering and cheapened the entire lines with watered down versions of the OG products.

The Freak was exquisite, so Kering/Pruniaux decided to cut cost via the Freak X, https://quillandpad.com/2019/07/21/u...ordable-freak/

Also a bunch of other questionable moves.... No surprise when eBay has the watch you were looking at half off lol...

Imagine the feelings if you owned the Freak and see the Freak X with a reduced cost and different movement but bearing the same name... No one will pay Freak prices anymore...

I'm still not sure if Pruniaux is the right man to take the brands forward, but I'm damn well sure Kering was a bad match for both brands at the end of the day lol

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by S``

Sofisti was then fired, replaced by Antonio Calce who experimented with the Laureato, I believe it was limited edition of 41, and 38 (???), Again at that time, they could be found brand new at gray market as soon as they were in the store...Calce left soon after... He went to Corum and is now with Grubel Forsey.

I want to know how Calce got the job at GF. He's pretty open about doubling production, cutting r&d, and caring more about customer segmentation than watchmaking. Gotta be a Richemont plant. Same play when he was at GP and Panerai, it didn't work then, I don't think it'll work now....

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by ajw45

I want to know how Calce got the job at GF. He's pretty open about doubling production, cutting r&d, and caring more about customer segmentation than watchmaking. Gotta be a Richemont plant. Same play when he was at GP and Panerai, it didn't work then, I don't think it'll work now....

Very curious how he got the job, as well.

He has a standard pattern that he employs, and repeats every time he ends up at a new brand. Most haven't panned out successfully.

[S``]

Originally Posted by ajw45

I want to know how Calce got the job at GF. He's pretty open about doubling production, cutting r&d, and caring more about customer segmentation than watchmaking. Gotta be a Richemont plant. Same play when he was at GP and Panerai, it didn't work then, I don't think it'll work now....

Must be same "old boys club" kind of hiring?!?! You'd think after seeing what a clusterF GP was, that would have been a career ender... It wasn't as if Corum was a roaring success during his stint as well

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by S``

Must be same "old boys club" kind of hiring?!?! You'd think after seeing what a clusterF GP was, that would have been a career ender... It wasn't as if Corum was a roaring success during his stint as well

If I had to bet G&F are getting tired and want to chill. Richemont has 20% which they'd like to make 100% so they put Calce in the game to "grow" the business after spending too many years making amazing stuff no one could afford with Deschanel from APRP. Now they are going to pump and dump in the classic Richemont way. They are already following the Lange/VC playbook launching the new S2 (like the Lange Odysseus or the VC OS)..

LOL, just saw he wants to take production to 500 units per year! GF is effed.

[S``]

Originally Posted by ajw45

If I had to bet G&F are getting tired and want to chill. Richemont has 20% which they'd like to make 100% so they put Calce in the game to "grow" the business after spending too many years making amazing stuff no one could afford with Deschanel from APRP. Now they are going to pump and dump in the classic Richemont way. They are already following the Lange/VC playbook launching the new S2 (like the Lange Odysseus or the VC OS)..

LOL, just saw he wants to take production to 500 units per year! GF is effed.

Richemont is currently in the stage 2

[DoraTheExplorerII]

The only next logical step now is for Watchbox to corner the secondary market and then acquire them!!!

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by S``

My friend bought this Maxi Marine Chronometer back in 2012 when Rolf Schnyder was still in charge of UN pre Kering... It was 40% off BNIB with stamped booklet from DavidSW... It was a great watch, with ETA 2892 base and modified by UN. Back then, Rolf promised to any UN owners that the movement could be swapped out to a new in house version once the in house UN 118 was ready... We know how that ended ....

Rolf Schnyder passed away, the Mrs sold the company off to Kering and cheapened the entire lines with watered down versions of the OG products.

The Freak was exquisite, so Kering/Pruniaux decided to cut cost via the Freak X, https://quillandpad.com/2019/07/21/u...ordable-freak/

Also a bunch of other questionable moves.... No surprise when eBay has the watch you were looking at half off lol...

Imagine the feelings if you owned the Freak and see the Freak X with a reduced cost and different movement but bearing the same name... No one will pay Freak prices anymore...

I'm still not sure if Pruniaux is the right man to take the brands forward, but I'm damn well sure Kering was a bad match for both brands at the end of the day lol

Your friend got a great piece. As a UN collector I love lots of their pieces but realise now nothing I own is newer that early 2000's when they were making some amazing strides. Hopefully in private ownership they can regain some of their lost style.
PS. Love my Freak (2001).

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by ajw45

I want to know how Calce got the job at GF. He's pretty open about doubling production, cutting r&d, and caring more about customer segmentation than watchmaking. Gotta be a Richemont plant. Same play when he was at GP and Panerai, it didn't work then, I don't think it'll work now....

Really? Hmmm, now the pieces are starting to fall into place!

Ahhh, so now we KNOW who is the one to blame for Panerai going into the gutter. i had reserved a Bronzo 42 ~$16k, yet at the outrageous price for it and lously movement, versus a $5k Bell&Ross bronze....

Sadly, I loved the 1118 TRON too much to resist, and the only thing saving it due to low-quality movement and very high price is the included 70-year warranty (has ANYONE ever seen any details in writing of exactly what is covered under the 70 year, they SAY that service in included, would love to see that IN WRITING from Panerai).

Thanks for the info, nice to put a name to who may be to blame for the downfall of companies.

Originally Posted by S``

Must be same "old boys club" kind of hiring?!?!

Sounds about right, and seems like the same nepotism problem with the ongoing downfall of Patek Philippe, who are not part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Really? Hmmm, now the pieces are starting to fall into place!

Ahhh, so now we KNOW who is the one to blame for Panerai going into the gutter. i had reserved a Bronzo 42 ~$16k, yet at the outrageous price for it and lously movement, versus a $5k Bell&Ross bronze....

Sadly, I loved the 1118 TRON too much to resist, and the only thing saving it due to low-quality movement and very high price is the included 70-year warranty (has ANYONE ever seen any details in writing of exactly what is covered under the 70 year, they SAY that service in included, would love to see that IN WRITING from Panerai.

Thanks for the info, nice to put a name to who may be to blame for the downfall of companies.




Sounds about right, and seems like the same nepotism with the downfall of Patek Philippe, who are not part of the Modern Holy Trinity.

Steven, your Panerai bashing is getting pretty intense! You seem personally offended by them.

Anyway... some people made "into the gutter" comments about Panerai long before you purchased yours. ;-)

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Steven, your Panerai bashing is getting pretty intense! You seem personally offended by them.

They're ok, so not THAT bad I guess. Not great or awe-inspiring, just ok and they do make some very nice fashion pieces. So let's call it "style over substance", and that's fine too as the fashion industry is littered with such things. So far the 1118 has held up darn well, bravo Panerai! Alas, the 01033 GTM not so much. It's a style watch, and I even got the matching metal bracelet for that 'Big Watch' look.

Love the Panerai table clock with 8-day movement, for $3000 that's a very nice product I can highly recommend.

Anyway... some people made "into the gutter" comments about Panerai long before you purchased yours. ;-)

And why would people who value movement quality and horology be dissing Paneri? Do tell :)

PS: Bob @ Panerai Naples FL is always a joy to chat with. Perhaps he should be considered for helping lead Richemont's Panerai brand?

[dannyp]

Wonder what will ultimately happen here. Worse than being ingested by another conglomerate would be if a PE backer sees a quick buck here.

Could see it ultimately being acquired by LVMH, if it wants to build a watch portfolio to compete with Richemont and Swatch. Plus UN is avant-garde enough to fit the company's portfolio.

Swatch would have made sense but for the fact that one of GP's claims to fame is the movements provided to others, and Swatch is already the biggest in that field by far.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Wonder what will ultimately happen here. Worse than being ingested by another conglomerate would be if a PE backer sees a quick buck here.

Could see it ultimately being acquired by LVMH, if it wants to build a watch portfolio to compete with Richemont and Swatch. Plus UN is avant-garde enough to fit the company's portfolio.

Swatch would have made sense but for the fact that one of GP's claims to fame is the movements provided to others, and Swatch is already the biggest in that field by far.

The problem with an acquisition is that Kering pulled a Richemont and consolidated GP and UN to share production facilities (along with making watches for Gucci) so the brands can't stand or be sold on their own. They're stuck, Kering couldn't sell one without the other and no one wants to buy and turn around two dying brands at the same time. Either they need to figure out a strategy to differentiate and grow both together, invest in the infrastructure to make them both independent enough to be sold, or pick one to turnaround and take the other out back and shoot it. I don't think they have the money for #2 or the balls for #3, they're going to make a go of #1 cause ego.

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by dannyp

Wonder what will ultimately happen here. Worse than being ingested by another conglomerate would be if a PE backer sees a quick buck here.

Could see it ultimately being acquired by LVMH, if it wants to build a watch portfolio to compete with Richemont and Swatch. Plus UN is avant-garde enough to fit the company's portfolio.

Swatch would have made sense but for the fact that one of GP's claims to fame is the movements provided to others, and Swatch is already the biggest in that field by far.

Both would actually nicely balance the LVMH portfolio which is conspicuously thin at the top end (though presumably they're waiting for PP).

[mongrelnomoad]

Originally Posted by ajw45

The problem with an acquisition is that Kering pulled a Richemont and consolidated GP and UN to share production facilities (along with making watches for Gucci) so the brands can't stand or be sold on their own.

Well that doesn't bode well...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by mongrelnomoad

Well that doesn't bode well...

It's going to be a challenge, yet if they can bring someone smart and savvy....

[dannyp]

Originally Posted by mongrelnomoad

Both would actually nicely balance the LVMH portfolio which is conspicuously thin at the top end (though presumably they're waiting for PP).

If that's the case, then this combo is a perfect "audition" for the Stern family. Prove that LVMH can avoid pulling another Zenith, where it went through decades of awkward teen years only staying alive because of the legendary El Primero.

Prove that GP can go toe to toe with JLC, Blancpain, etc. in terms of maintaining the respect of the horological community without departing from its roots or reputation, while growing sustainably. On the flip side, show UN as a brand that can constantly push design and R&D envelopes in desirable packages.

[Amateur]

I remember looking at Ulysse Nardin in boutiques before 2010 and loved the way their watches look - way out of my price range at the time.

Today, I agree that none of their models really makes me want to purchase anything from them, especially at retail.

TBH I don't really care about holy trinity or not, I tend to purchase luxury watches I really love when I do have money to spare - if I don't, I just watch from the sidelines and save slowly but steadily...

[S``]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

It's going to be a challenge, yet if they can bring someone smart and savvy....

Calling for Angelo Bonati and the return of limited editions

Just kidding...

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by S``

Calling for Angelo Bonati and the return of limited editions

Just kidding...

To quote His Highness Sir Chewbacca-san...

REPORTED!

[Jimbo]

I know this is off topic, but does anyone have opinions about Watchbox buying a big stake (was it majority stake?) in De Bethune?

It's one thing to have a watch conglomerate or luxury brand purchasing a watchmaker, but it feels kinda funny a luxury watch reseller would put such a stake in a watchmaker.

Watchbox has been pounding buyers on De Bethune to the point that it's kinda become cliche. But now there is a clear financial incentive to keep pushing the brand.

It seems like a move that will open Watchbox to more criticism about its credibility when it comes to watch recommendations.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I know this is off topic, but does anyone have opinions about Watchbox buying a big stake (was it majority stake?) in De Bethune?

It's one thing to have a watch conglomerate or luxury brand purchasing a watchmaker, but it feels kinda funny a luxury watch reseller would put such a stake in a watchmaker.

Watchbox has been pounding buyers on De Bethune to the point that it's kinda become cliche. But now there is a clear financial incentive to keep pushing the brand.

It seems like a move that will open Watchbox to more criticism about its credibility when it comes to watch recommendations.

Other than the fact that I can't afford one now, I think it's a good thing. Two of the biggest hurdles with buying a DB before was whether they would be around long enough to service the watches and resale prices. WB solved both of these issues but in return for that added value plus some hype and supply manipulation and prices have gone through the roof. I was a little annoyed when WB consolidated all the pre-owned inventory last summer and pushing prices up but they were still at a discount to retail so fair game. Now prices are way over retail and and it sucks but that's the watch market today.

As for the future, I actually think WB will be a great place for DB. IMHO they have enough experience in the market selling watches from failed brands for pennies on the dollar that I think they know what not to do to a brand and they have a more direct link to end customers to help connect the art of DB with the reality of the market. They of all people will know the discipline of tightly matching production with demand. Even better, WB is not a luxury brand or a watchmaker so I don't think they approach this with the ego of an LVMH to change or turnaround the brand and in that way screw it up. All indications are that they will let DB be DB, but give it the capital and the retail strategy to make it sustainable.

As far as pushing the brand, well, they were pushing DB for years before the acquisition, I don't see how this changes anything. DB makes less than 200 watches a year, it's nothing burger. Patek and AP each make what, like 60k/year? No one looking at a Breitling is going to get upsold by WB into a DB and even if WB managed to convince 200 people to buy a DB instead of an overpriced 5711, I think those customers would get a better watch and be more well of for it. I mean, it's not like they are sprooking aventi watches, the DB watches are fully excellent with better finishing than anything at a similar price from the trinity + FPJ.

[dannyp]

Though the order went differently, it’s not that different from Richemont’s foray into luxury retail. It owns the Net-a-porter family of sites, though they’re hardly dedicated to watches.