How can you really trust that a grey market Rolex is authentic?

[burnthesehills]

I keep reading articles and seeing videos about counterfeit Rolex watches including “super clones”, with many suggesting that they are extremely difficult to tell from authentic. Even by jewelers who open the case and inspect the movement.

From what I can tell, grey market dealers get these watches from all over the place. Typically from other greys and in many cases in bulk. I’m sure they give them a thorough once over, and can probably filter out most of the fakes. But it’s not unreasonable to think that some could slip through.

So even if a grey is selling what they believe is authentic, I assume there is some risk. And if one is paying the grey market premium over retail, is it worth the risk?

Just wondering everyone’s thoughts on the matter.

[JohnGingerwood]

I have often wondered the same thing. I guess if you buy from a reputable grey there is little risk. I bet there’s some people out there wearing a clone that think it’s real.

[Bryan81]

Buy from a trusted seller. If you don’t have one you can trust, stick with an AD. Just having a website doesn’t automatically make one a trusted seller either.


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[rmwill]

Buy at an AD if you are worried.

[Chewbacca]

I’m of the belief that there’s always risk buying online and if your lifestyle would materially change if you became a victim of online fraud, don’t buy online.

Keywords: horology house

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by Bryan81

Buy from a trusted seller. If you don’t have one you can trust, stick with an AD. Just having a website doesn’t automatically make one a trusted seller either.


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Yeah but even a trusted seller could pick up a super clone without knowing. Especially if they deal in volume from multiple sources.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by rmwill

Buy at an AD if you are worried.

I personally only buy from AD’s. It is mainly financial if I am being honest because i can’t afford the grey market mark up. But the whole “super clone” potential would definitely cause additional concern. But maybe it’s not that widespread.

[10klakes]

When you buy from a secondary dealer, you never know for certain, until it’s sent into a RSC. Then you find out if it’s real, and if it’s been stolen or not. Depending on the secondary watch dealer, they will/would stand behind the watch and take care of you.

With how good fakes are becoming, I think it may become a bigger issue in the not too distant future.

[Bryan81]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

Yeah but even a trusted seller could pick up a super clone without knowing. Especially if they deal in volume from multiple sources.

I think you have a different definition of trusted seller than I do.


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[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

I’m of the belief that there’s always risk buying online and if your lifestyle would materially change if you became a victim of online fraud, don’t buy online.

Keywords: horology house

Interesting read. I was not aware of the horology house scandal.

[gerry100]

Buying used and serviced at an AD may cost you some hundreds$. but is probably worth it

[TheVTCGuy]

This is a fair question, but the answer is easy. Buy the Seller.

On this site, I can personally recommend Tony (JustRolexes), DavidSW and Patrick (OCRolexguy). They stand by their products and are honorable, if they were some kind of issue, they will make it right.

[luster]

Originally Posted by rmwill

Buy at an AD if you are worried.

Oh why didn't I think of that!

I'll just swing by tomorrow and purchase the watch I wanted.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by Bryan81

I think you have a different definition of trusted seller than I do.


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I may. But my point is that ANY grey market dealer that does volume business could pass along a super clone without even knowing. Even the super reputable and trusted ones.

So basically, unless you’re buying from a buddy that you know purchased directly from an AD, there could be some risk.

[IamJacky]

The way I see it, there is indeed always risk in buying in the secondary market, even from a trusted seller. But, I always choose to purchase from my local reputable dealers with physical stores, I trust them to do honest business because reputation and credibility is everything to their livelihood, even if somehow a super clone "slipped" through I trust my dealers enough to remedy the situation, although it's never happened to me.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by luster

Oh why didn't I think of that!

I'll just swing by tomorrow and purchase the watch I wanted.

Since you’re going there anyway…. Could you pick me up a couple please? Maybe a Meteorite Daytona, SkyDweller and… oh, what the heck, how about a BLNR.


Thanks very much, Hopefully it won’t be too much of an inconvenience.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by TheVTCGuy

This is a fair question, but the answer is easy. Buy the Seller.

On this site, I can personally recommend Tony (JustRolexes), DavidSW and Patrick (OCRolexguy). They stand by their products and are honorable, if they were some kind of issue, they will make it right.

I’m sure these are all great sellers, but again I’m not sure where they are getting their watches from. I’ve seen YouTube videos of similar grey dealers and they are constantly buying, and buying in bulk. And they are not really disassembling the watches to inspect them.

So yeah, I’m sure they would stand behind their product, but it would entail sending it for service and authentication.

Again, just throwing it out there for conversation. Not to point fingers or ruffle feathers. This may be a non-issue, especially with reputable grey dealers. But the whole super clone situation would make me a little nervous.

[Polar Bear]

I always took "buying the seller" to mean more than just simple authenticity
I've purchased from a number of Grey Dealers over the years and all of them have said if there is EVER an issue with authenticity that I am entitled to a new watch or a full refund.
Granted, they still need to be around when/if an issue occurs, but if theyre well established i see little risk of them shutting up shop in the next 5 years.
A well respected dealer trades on their reputation

If you're super worried, send it for a service as soon as you get it and any issues will come to light pretty quick

[Ensign]

Many super fakes are almost impossible to distinguish from genuine Rolexes by look and feel. But a good grey will check the weight and movement. I don’t think counterfeiters have gone as far as to fake a movement and replicate the weight of the watch.

[ArtNouveau]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I’m sure these are all great sellers, but again I’m not sure where they are getting their watches from. I’ve seen YouTube videos of similar grey dealers and they are constantly buying, and buying in bulk. And they are not really disassembling the watches to inspect them.

So yeah, I’m sure they would stand behind their product, but it would entail sending it for service and authentication.

Again, just throwing it out there for conversation. Not to point fingers or ruffle feathers. This may be a non-issue, especially with reputable grey dealers. But the whole super clone situation would make me a little nervous.

It’s not widespread. All grey dealers are not created equal but the well known ones have built the reputation they have by being knowledgable, reliable, and as fair on price and service as they can be. Buy the seller as is often said.
Do you really think someone who buys and sells as many Rolex as an AD does can’t tell the real thing from a fake/clone? I sold a watch to Takuya a few years ago and his watchmaker with Rolex and Omega certificates hanging on his wall examined it before he bought it.
Obviously tbough if YOU have doubts don’t buy from them.

[AbeFroman]

There’s always a risk buying on the secondary market. Anyone who says there isn’t is foolish.

It all depends on your risk tolerance. If you are a risk adverse individual then your best bet is to try your options at an AD and be patient. Otherwise go with an secondary dealer with impeccable feedback to minimize risk.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I’m sure these are all great sellers, but again I’m not sure where they are getting their watches from. I’ve seen YouTube videos of similar grey dealers and they are constantly buying, and buying in bulk. And they are not really disassembling the watches to inspect them.

So yeah, I’m sure they would stand behind their product, but it would entail sending it for service and authentication.

Again, just throwing it out there for conversation. Not to point fingers or ruffle feathers. This may be a non-issue, especially with reputable grey dealers. But the whole super clone situation would make me a little nervous.

Friend, you should definitely not buy a watch online. You clearly have a narrative constructed in your head about the dangers and prevalence of “super clones.” The only way to completely avoid any risk at all is to buy new from an AD. That’s it, your only play. There are countless recommendations here for trusted sellers and if you still feel nervous then get in line at the AD.

[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I’m sure these are all great sellers, but again I’m not sure where they are getting their watches from. I’ve seen YouTube videos of similar grey dealers and they are constantly buying, and buying in bulk. And they are not really disassembling the watches to inspect them.

So yeah, I’m sure they would stand behind their product, but it would entail sending it for service and authentication.

Again, just throwing it out there for conversation. Not to point fingers or ruffle feathers. This may be a non-issue, especially with reputable grey dealers. But the whole super clone situation would make me a little nervous.

There isn’t a grey dealer on the planet that pops the hood on modern Rolex to check for fakes. They don’t need to. You will never see a modern Rolex with a modern real case, real dial, real hand set, real bezel and insert, and a real bracelet that has a fake movement. Never. As in it’s happened 0 times in the history of selling watches. Why? It wouldn’t make sense. The cost to put together a watch like that would be far too high and they wouldn’t be able to get everything. The need to pop the hood is negated when everything else is correct.

[HideMyWalletPlease]

Just make sure you get the original matching outer box sleeve and you’re good.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

Friend, you should definitely not buy a watch online. You clearly have a narrative constructed in your head about the dangers and prevalence of “super clones.” The only way to completely avoid any risk at all is to buy new from an AD. That’s it, your only play. There are countless recommendations here for trusted sellers and if you still feel nervous then get in line at the AD.

I have already stated that I only buy from AD’s. This was for discussion purposes only and a genuine curiosity regarding grey market dealers.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by shaunylw

There isn’t a grey dealer on the planet that pops the hood on modern Rolex to check for fakes. They don’t need to. You will never see a modern Rolex with a modern real case, real dial, real hand set, real bezel and insert, and a real bracelet that has a fake movement. Never. As in it’s happened 0 times in the history of selling watches. Why? It wouldn’t make sense. The cost to put together a watch like that would be far too high and they wouldn’t be able to get everything. The need to pop the hood is negated when everything else is correct.

There are examples of clones with replicated movements. So I suppose it would not matter if a grey opened the case.

I am certainly not suggesting that grey dealers should open the case. Simply that the clones are apparently getting good enough to fool the experts.

[Unframed]

Buy the seller. I've bought from DavidSW and Jacek (Tropical Watch) and would buy again from either of them.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I have already stated that I only buy from AD’s. This was for discussion purposes only and a genuine curiosity regarding grey market dealers.

For more than five years I’ve read hundreds and maybe thousands of recommendations of trusted sellers here on TRF. Not once have I read a tale about “super clones” or counterfeits being purchased from any of them. Not once. Not saying it can’t happen but five years is a long time.

[shaunylw]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

There are examples of clones with replicated movements. So I suppose it would not matter if a grey opened the case.

I am certainly not suggesting that grey dealers should open the case. Simply that the clones are apparently getting good enough to fool the experts.

Clones are fake cases with fake movements. The point being, their are no clones with real cases dials and hand sets. The movement would never need to be checked because you can see the problems with the watch before the movement. We don’t talk about specifics with fakes but compare the best fake to the real deal and you will see what i mean.

Cloned Rolex movements are also not very good. Some really good pictures of fake movements on the web. From afar, pretty good. When you really look close, they are very far off.

It’s a volume issue with greys. Most could catch it every single time if they looked. It’s not difficult. But they are moving so many watches collectively, stuff slips by.

[Moondoggy]

A problem that can arise is the grey goes back to you and says no you swapped it out, then it becomes a problem.

I sold a painting at auction years ago was verified by auction house as authentic, buyer was from overseas, when the buyer received it he claimed it was a fake, I argued how can you prove to me it hasn't been swapped out...well they couldn't. Took it to court settled day before hearing.....gets messy.