Rolex submariner 1680

[mcjp6]

Dial, Hands, Bezel Insert and Crystal have all been replaced with aftermarket non genuine replacement parts, therefore fake and trademark infringment..



Seller: dragon_phoenix_metal_stone( 68)

Up for auction is a Genuine Rolex 1680 Submariner, that has been fully restored, with the original rolex damaged parts replaced with aftermarket replacement parts.The original damaged Dial, Hands, Bezel Insert and Crystal have all been replaced with aftermarket non genuine replacement parts, everything else on this watch is original to the watch and is genuine Rolex...A full restoration on this watch has been done including sanded and repolished case, complete overhaul of the movement, and replacement of damaged parts with above aftermarket parts...the watch has been tested water resistant and is keeping accurate time. Note: there are some hairline scratches on the case, caseback and crystal due to post restoration use.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ROLEX-SUBMARI...d=p3286.c0.m14

[idk01]

Gone

This listing (270436574240) has been removed or is no longer available.

[FIB112358]

Hi I am the owner of this watch that has been removed...I have been a long time reader of the threads on this forum but this is the first time I have posted, in fact I only officially joined the forum today.

The watch is an original watch that has a repainted dial, after market plexi and insert that are disclosed. There are other rolex 1680s for sale that have replacement after market parts that don't get removed. Ebayer Capital578's datejust listing have after market sapphire crystals and bands that are disclosed in his listings.

I would like more information as to your reasons for reporting the item.

Thank you.

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by FIB112358

I would like more information as to your reasons for reporting the item.

Thank you.

Hi,

in your listing you state that the Dial, Hands, Bezel Insert and Crystal have all been replaced with aftermarket non genuine replacement parts.

The dial has the Rolex trademark on it and as you say it is non genuine so it is then by definition a trademark infringement. If it is not made by Rolex then it cannot have the Rolex mark on it.

[FIB112358]

ebayer capital578

[TimeToGo]

FIB112358 -

Thanks for joining and hope you will stick around on this forum! Welcome!

I agree with your concern on your listing as you disclosed "some" of the issues at hand. Please refer to the initial post of your listing (see below), which was removed because you initially had a fake band on the watch.

I believe the concern on this post is that you described that the dial as "been replaced with aftermarket non genuine replacement parts" versus a "redial"....

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthrea...e%28+68%29

[idk01]

Hi FIB112358,

Have been having issues posting tonight

Welcome to TRF,

Your initial listing did catch my eye with the band, please see this thread - Rolex 1680 submariner date 1969

As you can see the main reason for the report was the Rolex coronet on the clasp of the band as stated was aftermarket. at that stage eBay did remove the listing for that reason. The dial on the watch being after market does also bring up the issue of the dial showing Rolex trademarking. when a report is submitted to eBay they ultimately are the deciding factor, and in this case they have deemed the watch to have broken trademark laws.

There are many examples throughout the watchout history with similar cases down to Tudor brand watches with reworked dials with Rolex trademarking.

Even showing in the listing that after market parts are used, the Rolex and Rolex coronet on the dial trademark infringement.

Please keep in touch if you need any info.

Cheers,

Dave.

[FIB112358]

Thanks I'll do some research regarding the trademark requirements. If the current dial is replaced with a second hand original, would that cause any difficulties, that you foresee regarding the sale of this item?

[idk01]

Originally Posted by FIB112358

Thanks I'll do some research regarding the trademark requirements. If the current dial is replaced with a second hand original, would that cause any difficulties, that you foresee regarding the sale of this item?

If you can find and install the dial, hand and crystal, you would have one hell of a watch

Check the for sale section here on TRF

[TimeToGo]

The hands are not the issue. This occurs all the time. The issue is the dial, if this is the original dial, repainted as you claim, then it was not replaced with an aftermarket dial.

If it is an aftermarket dial, repainted, then there is an issue!

[FIB112358]

I bought the dial from ebay. I had a look at the item description for the dial I bought and it read "Rolex 1680 Red Submariner dial refinished by profissional"
on the back of the dial is written singer and there is a round circle indentation, is this a refinished original ?
thanks

[idk01]

That sounds like an original dial, our resident gurus could tell you in a flash if its 100% original

Do you have any photos of the dial before it was installed? (front and back)

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by idk01

That sounds like an original dial, our resident gurus could tell you in a flash if its 100% original

Do you have any photos of the dial before it was installed? (front and back)

May I ask did the original dial have the word "Submariner" in red or white?

[TimeToGo]

Too many parts on this one...

Franken watch..

[FIB112358]

here are the pics that I had seved from the auction description

[FIB112358]

the original dial was cactus ,but what was left of the word submariner was part red with white paint where it was scratched, the original dial was cracked and most of the paint on the dial was badly damaged

[FIB112358]

If this dial is an original dial, then with the correct disclosure can the watch be relisted???

[mcjp6]

Originally Posted by FIB112358

If this dial is an original dial, then with the correct disclosure can the watch be relisted???

Yes it can if the dial is original Rolex, it looks like it has been refinished though which is a shame as it does decrease the value somewhat. The red sub in good original form is quite valuable and often "built" up of many parts intending to deceive. A good write up is here http://doubleredseadweller.com/rs1.htm

[idk01]

The spacing on the 660 ft = 200m looks wrong on that dial, also inconsistencies with the font: ( I hope Larry doesn't mind me borrowing one of his photos )

Can you let us know the first 3 digits of the serial of the watch , that will give us the correct period dial, as there are slight differences between some of the releases.

[FIB112358]

OK, Thankyou for your help everybody. But could someone bring me up to speed on were I am at with my listing.
Thanks

[FIB112358]

The serial number and model are almost gone, but I have the serial number written down from when I bought the watch its 276

[FIB112358]

276xxxx

[idk01]

Makes the watch late 1969 - early 1970. the original disl for this time should have open 6's for the depth so for the moment this dial is not the correct.

The alignment of the 660 is also off should look like this -

[FIB112358]

what does an original dial like that cost to buy second han?

[idk01]

Originally Posted by FIB112358

what does an original dial like that cost to buy second han?

This is where we need some of our esteemed collectors to jump in and advise on price and availability. I know they can be quite rare.

[springer]

Interesting thread. Non-original hands, crystals, bezel inserts and other parts not marked with Rolex identifiers are not trademark infringement in the USA. Many, many watches have these non-original parts. Although some purists want their Rolex to be 100%, there are many more owners out there that really don't care one way or the other. If the watch is sent to Rolex for repair, they want it to be 100% Rolex for the proper fit and finish to ensure the watch runs and seals properly. Although many aftermarket parts will properly seal a Rolex and ensure that it functions properly when the watch is repaired by Rolex, they warrantee the watch and will not warrantee aftermarket parts.

The dial is another issue which has been discussed here previously. In short, refinishing a dial that is no longer available is no crime and has been accepted by collectors and watchmakers in the industry for decades. Fake dials for the red Submariner, Explorer and Cosmographs - which proliferate ebay - are fake, as noted by other posts in this thread.

If the part is no longer available, the only solution sometimes is to have the dial refinished which, again, has been an accepted form of restoration for decades. When this occurs, as in this case, the seller should disclose such information.

THE FOLLOWING IS FROM ANOTHER THREAD REGARDING REDIALS - POSTED BY SPRINGER:
(http://rolexforums.com/showthread.ph...hlight=mustang)

Re-dials or refinished dials have been around forever - it is a restoration of an original item. The problem with any item that has been refinished, whether a watch, vintage car, antique, etc is the value placed in it being original vs refinished. In almost every circumstance, a collector prefers original over refinished, unless the item is beyond refinishing. An example to the contrary would be an old, rusty, inoperable 1940's vintage coke machine. It wouldn't be worth much in that condition, but restored, it could be worth plenty. The same holds true for many vintage muscle or collector cars. A vintage 1966 original Mustang could be worth much more to a collector vs a restored Mustang in top condition. But, a Mustang in below average condition, even though original, would never have the same value of a restored Mustang in excellent condition based on them being fairly similiar cars. Sometimes parts on vintage collectibles need to be restored to make them presentable again.

What eventually happens with restored collectibles is the seller tells prospective buyers that whatever they are purchasing has been restored with vintage, reproduction parts or whatever the case may be. Somewhere down the line the item is sold again, then again, and eventually a restored item is sold as "original, like new" with no mention of the restoration, or in this case, re-dialed parts.

The buyer should be aware of what he is buying because a significant responsibility of the buyer is to "know what you are buying." Re-dialed or refinished watch dials are a legitimate means of restoring a vintage watch, just as it is with any antique or vintage collectible. Since these dials aren't being made anymore, redialing is really the only alternative, short of finding a used dial.

I don't think most people have an issue with re-dialing, but do have an issue with fake re-dials that indicate a watch purported to be something that it isn't, i.e. a Rolex Tudor.

We all know there is no such Rolex model as a Tudor. Tudor is a watch brand on to itself, which happens to to be owned and manufactured by Rolex. Just like a Camaro is a Chevy, and a Firebird is a Pontiac, they will never be a Buick Camaro or Oldsmobile Firebird, even though GM is the corporate company for all of them.

[idk01]

Originally Posted by springer

Interesting thread. Non-original hands, crystals, bezel inserts and other parts not marked with Rolex identifiers is not trademark infringement in the USA. Many, many watches have these non-original parts. Although some purists want their Rolex to be 100%, there are many more owners out there that really don't care one way or the other. If the watch is sent to Rolex for repair, they want it to be 100% Rolex for the proper fit and finish to ensure the watch runs and seals properly. Although many aftermarket parts will properly seal a Rolex and ensure that it functions properly when the watch is repaired by Rolex, they warrantee the watch and will not warrantee aftermarket parts.

The dial is another issue which has been discussed here previously. In short, refinishing a dial that is no longer available is no crime and has been accepted by collectors and watchmakers in the industry for decades. Fake dials for the red Submariner, Explorer and Cosmographs - which proliferate ebay - are fake, as noted by other posts in this thread.

If the part is no longer available, the only solution sometimes is to have the dial refinished which, again, has been an accepted form of restoration for decades. When this occurs, as in this case, the seller should disclose such information.

Cheers John, excellent info and good to know for future finds

[onkyo]

FIB112358,

First, welcome to the forum!

You made a couple of errors with your listings..... your first listing you included a fake band which is not allowed on eBay and you also did not disclose the aftermarket parts and refinished dial.

Your second listing you stated the dial was aftermarket which it is not.... it is refinished which is a big difference (one being allowed, one NOT being allowed - if containing a trademark crown). Sounds like you bought the dial from Yukiwatch on eBay.

So, you would be fine listing the watch as having an refinished Rolex dial and the other aftermarket parts you previously mentioned.

Good luck.

[blaine mattison]

just remember the letter m on closed 6 mark 4.5 final verison

[FIB112358]

Yes thats correct the dial was purchased from yukiwatch on ebay.If I had to buy the dial again I think I would go for an original dial as the yuki watch dial is very average, its look better in the item photo, when holding and looking at the dial it looks very fake and animated. I looked on ebay and there is a 1680 "red" sub dial for sale. It has an asking price of 3000usd"expensive"? It has open 6's. Is this the correct dial for this watch? Would it be fine if I put a white sub dial on the watch, as I found a couple of the white sub dials selling for about 500-800usd.
I would have been in a pickle if I had not known about this forum, as I would not have known why the listing was removed.
Thanks for all your help