Is the Lange Odysseus Chrono real?

[rolexandlange]

Several collectors I know have fully paid deposits and are awaiting ALS chronos for 12-18m+, but the arrival dates keep getting pushed back.

Meanwhile, ALS has released the Odysseus Chrono. They will make 100 pieces and the first pieces won't arrive until 2024. To my mind, this watch doesn't even exist yet. It is not in production. They have shown a concept watch and they promise to make it. Someone will own one, at some point, eventually, TBD.

So one has to ask, why release a watch at W&W 2023 that no one will have until at least 2024? Maybe a few dozen deliveries at most next year, if all according to plan. And from recent anecdotes of my collector friends, they aren't able to deliver according to plans lately.

Further to my frustration is the allocation process these days at ALS. It's very important to them to know their customers so well, yet the Odysseus keeps showing up on the grey market. At this point, anyone waiting 5y or more for a Odysseus is going to flip it. Real enthusiasts will just pay the (shrinking quickly) grey market premium.

I love ALS but I am moving to entirely focusing on early Lange, 1994-2004. And I hope the experience is good when the time comes to service my Datograph given they are short handed, but we still have Alkis so I am at ease for now. I love everything ALS represents in modern watchmaking - but the executive suite pursuing the hype train these days leaves a bad aftertaste to the best dish served in haute horology IMHO.

[texasmade]

Another question I would add is why even bother with W&W if you're ALS? You released one watch that's a LE that won't be on customer wrists until NEXT YEAR!!

ALS could've saved all the time, money, headaches of W&W this year and just did a bigger event next year.

[ap1]

Gents, I hear you. They aren’t the only one though. Czapek released a few watches due 2025! I don’t agree either but these companies are trying to remain relevant and on the hype train for as long as possible. Despite the long waits for the end user and nuts like us.

[Guppydriver]

We live in a world where social media is the primary driver of luxury products. You have to be present and relevant lest the hype train lose some steam.


I get, agree with, and understand your frustration but I also understand why ALS doesn't want to cede this years share of hype space to PP, VC, CzP, and all the other brands making the rounds on about a billion different online platforms.

[Gebbeth]

I dunno, but is availability really the issue? Is the fact that you can't get the watch until 2024 the real problem?

If so, Rolex shouldn't bother showing up either since you can't really get their watches....like ever....for most people at least.

I think the wait times for Patek's Grand Master Chime is pretty astronomical too.

What I do agree with, however, is that the days of events like Watches and Wonders are numbered. Like CES and E3, physical conventions don't make sense anymore. People have social media (YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, their own online presence, and increasingly their own boutiques), where in the past, none of that was really exploited.

As an engineering exercise, timelines are important, but so are getting watches right before release. What's the point of announcing a new line or lines when you are not quite ready for it. Just releases watches on your own timeline and don't get crowded out by other brands releasing new watches as well.

GS, Tudor, IWC, even Rolex has been releasing watches off cycle. It makes sense.

I'm telling you, if you enjoy W&W, you may be seeing the last few times this becomes a relevant thing.

[JR16]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Several collectors I know have fully paid deposits and are awaiting ALS chronos for 12-18m+, but the arrival dates keep getting pushed back.

Meanwhile, ALS has released the Odysseus Chrono. They will make 100 pieces and the first pieces won't arrive until 2024. To my mind, this watch doesn't even exist yet. It is not in production. They have shown a concept watch and they promise to make it. Someone will own one, at some point, eventually, TBD.

So one has to ask, why release a watch at W&W 2023 that no one will have until at least 2024? Maybe a few dozen deliveries at most next year, if all according to plan. And from recent anecdotes of my collector friends, they aren't able to deliver according to plans lately.

Further to my frustration is the allocation process these days at ALS. It's very important to them to know their customers so well, yet the Odysseus keeps showing up on the grey market. At this point, anyone waiting 5y or more for a Odysseus is going to flip it. Real enthusiasts will just pay the (shrinking quickly) grey market premium.

I love ALS but I am moving to entirely focusing on early Lange, 1994-2004. And I hope the experience is good when the time comes to service my Datograph given they are short handed, but we still have Alkis so I am at ease for now. I love everything ALS represents in modern watchmaking - but the executive suite pursuing the hype train these days leaves a bad aftertaste to the best dish served in haute horology IMHO.

Several small production manufacturers are releasing few watches with delivery timelines measured in years not months. So ALS isn’t alone.

With regards to your question on service, in Dec I sent my 1815 chrono in for service and was told 6 months but got it back in just over 3 months… so not bad.


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[WatchEater666]

If you're going to wait years + spend 6 figures, it should be on an independent

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

If you're going to wait years + spend 6 figures, it should be on an independent

Correct ^

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by watcheater666

if you're going to wait years + spend 6 figures, it should be on an independent

Originally Posted by gb-man

correct ^

x3

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

If you're going to wait years + spend 6 figures, it should be on an independent

I think this indy vs non indy thing is overblown. FPJ makes 900 watches a year and Lange makes 5k a year. The proportion of watchmakers to watches is probably pretty similar. some of the indies might be more famous, but can you really say they are superior watchmakers to people like annegreit fleischer at ALS, who designed the datograph movement and is still at ALS (so far as i know). you can get a lange&heyne, moritz grossmann or parmigiani out of the display case, no wait time, but i still prefer lange for the institutional infrastructure that i hope will last long into the future to offer service and parts for my datograph.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

...but can you really say they are superior watchmakers to people like annegreit fleischer at ALS, who designed the datograph movement and is still at ALS (so far as i know).

But nobody said that.

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

But nobody said that.

i surmise it's often implied that independent is better by virtue of independence in the indy vs non-indy debate but i apologize if i am mistaken.

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

If you're going to wait years + spend 6 figures, it should be on an independent

actually i think the issue is you don't get to wait to spend. you have to pay now, collect watch years later, how many years TBD.

my simple rolex AD doesn't take deposits for watches they can't assure procurement of at a defined date. i think this is the way, not what ALS is doing.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

i surmise it's often implied that independent is better by virtue of independence in the indy vs non-indy debate but i apologize if i am mistaken.

"Better" is such a subjective term when comparing haute horology brands. The quality of craftsmanship is pretty damn close whether you're talking about a ALS / VC / Patek on the one hand vs. Ferrier / Greubel / DeBethune on the other hand (I know Patek is technically independent but they act more like a non-indy in this context).

My personal bias leans indy brands because they are more rare and more interesting to hunt for, to research, and to wear. More importantly, there is a closer connection with indy brands. I have no interest in graveling to a stuck up sales rep at the mall or even a nice one... especially when the watchmakers and C-level employees at independent brands eagerly engage in customer relationships.

In that sense... to me personally... yes indys are "better"

[rolexandlange]

Originally Posted by charger_vital

"Better" is such a subjective term when comparing haute horology brands. The quality of craftsmanship is pretty damn close whether you're talking about a ALS / VC / Patek on the one hand vs. Ferrier / Greubel / DeBethune on the other hand (I know Patek is technically independent but they act more like a non-indy in this context).

My personal bias leans indy brands because they are more rare and more interesting to hunt for, to research, and to wear. More importantly, there is a closer connection with indy brands. I have no interest in graveling to a stuck up sales rep at the mall or even a nice one... especially when the watchmakers and C-level employees at independent brands eagerly engage in customer relationships.

In that sense... to me personally... yes indys are "better"

Totally agreed on your first points and understand your personal bias. Heck, I even enjoy vintage Rolex partly because I enjoy visiting my vintage rolex watchmaker.

But just to add, with famed indy FPJ you absolutely have to go thru the sucking up process, have to get invited to their boutique events and attend before you even get allocated a watch, and put on this very french charade that we are all family here where it's more like a strictly a business relationship. what's more, i've personally exchanged emails with the CEO of ALS in the past, and I am no big fish and not a boutique customer (though a customer of a former AD but we all know what happened there)

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

i surmise it's often implied that independent is better by virtue of independence in the indy vs non-indy debate but i apologize if i am mistaken.

I think there are a lot of different reasons why some go the indy route and, like you, some prefer the non-indy path. No right or wrong here. The indies (some) can offer a more personalized and bespoke experience, whereas with the non-indies, you just get what they offer. Some like to know that an actual indie watchmaker (perhaps the founder himself) worked on their watch -- it makes it more special. I don't see that as a commentary on who is a better watchmaker. It's just an intangible that people seem to value, just like there's value in sticking with a larger, more established enterprise that will surely be around for many years to come (e.g., Lange).

Enthusiasts seem to constantly chase specialness (however they define it), which is often the Mall Watch >> Rolex >> Patek >> Lange progression (or some similar path). No surprise to me that the next leap is from Lange to an indy, or if the price is high enough or the wait too long, even skipping Lange and going right to an indy.

Cheers,
VS

[rolexandlange]

Do indies typically ask for the payment up front to produce the watch and deliver at some undetermined point in the non-near future? That's sort of what I am taking issue with at ALS these days. They are borrowing from customers at 0% with no definite terms. Still love the watches, just don't like this practice. Deposit is maybe the middle ground, but my friends who are waiting are fully paid.

[vitalsigns]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Do indies typically ask for the payment up front to produce the watch and deliver at some undetermined point in the non-near future? That's sort of what I am taking issue with at ALS these days. They are borrowing from customers at 0% with no definite terms. Still love the watches, just don't like this practice. Deposit is maybe the middle ground, but my friends who are waiting are fully paid.

That's my understanding -- most indies ask for $ up front and will offer an ETA, sometimes years out.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Do indies typically ask for the payment up front to produce the watch and deliver at some undetermined point in the non-near future? That's sort of what I am taking issue with at ALS these days. They are borrowing from customers at 0% with no definite terms. Still love the watches, just don't like this practice. Deposit is maybe the middle ground, but my friends who are waiting are fully paid.

Depends of course on the brand. But typically many require some kind of deposit; 20-50% range.

And by the way, regarding your previous response: I find indy shopping like vintage rolex shopping (at least what vintage rolex shopping used to be before the madness). The hunt / education is very similar. Also, it sounds like you've found a winner in ALS given your experience.

[GB-man]

Depends gronefeld takes like 1/3 deposit, Journe takes nothing. Some brands want payment in full others take a nominal amount like $1,000.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Several collectors I know have fully paid deposits and are awaiting ALS chronos for 12-18m+, but the arrival dates keep getting pushed back.

Meanwhile, ALS has released the Odysseus Chrono. They will make 100 pieces and the first pieces won't arrive until 2024. To my mind, this watch doesn't even exist yet. It is not in production. They have shown a concept watch and they promise to make it. Someone will own one, at some point, eventually, TBD.

So one has to ask, why release a watch at W&W 2023 that no one will have until at least 2024? Maybe a few dozen deliveries at most next year, if all according to plan. And from recent anecdotes of my collector friends, they aren't able to deliver according to plans lately.

Further to my frustration is the allocation process these days at ALS. It's very important to them to know their customers so well, yet the Odysseus keeps showing up on the grey market. At this point, anyone waiting 5y or more for a Odysseus is going to flip it. Real enthusiasts will just pay the (shrinking quickly) grey market premium.

I love ALS but I am moving to entirely focusing on early Lange, 1994-2004. And I hope the experience is good when the time comes to service my Datograph given they are short handed, but we still have Alkis so I am at ease for now. I love everything ALS represents in modern watchmaking - but the executive suite pursuing the hype train these days leaves a bad aftertaste to the best dish served in haute horology IMHO.

Are your friends paid full as a requirement to get the allocation? Or is it because they want to lock the price?

I paid deposit for a watch and it was 30% but was offered an option to pay in full so the price will be locked to the original price instead of the current price.

ALS and VC used to honor original price when deposit was made but I think that was changed a year or so back.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by rolexandlange

Totally agreed on your first points and understand your personal bias. Heck, I even enjoy vintage Rolex partly because I enjoy visiting my vintage rolex watchmaker.

But just to add, with famed indy FPJ you absolutely have to go thru the sucking up process, have to get invited to their boutique events and attend before you even get allocated a watch, and put on this very french charade that we are all family here where it's more like a strictly a business relationship. what's more, i've personally exchanged emails with the CEO of ALS in the past, and I am no big fish and not a boutique customer (though a customer of a former AD but we all know what happened there)

With FPJ, the resale value created a lot of flippers and if the boutique allocate a watch to everyone who comes through the door, the brand would have to increase production by many times and destroy brand equity.

With ALS nowadays, if you want the more desirable references, you will likely have to have purchased a less popular piece and for Journe, there is no less desirable piece which can be used as a “bundle”. (Not in a negative sense) Similarly and maybe worse with Rolex and Patek since most Rolex and Patek ADs carry other brands and jewelry and from my experience, jewelry is what gets a lot of pieces at this type of ADs.

Other than FPJ, some of the other indies are screening collectors now too. It is just a sign of time with demand exceeding supply. My MB&F AD actually went to Geneva to get an allocation for me as the reference was over subscribed. (At least I did not have to go )

[Ichiran]

I don't think it's fair to use the term "independents" as if they are all the same. They are not and there are so many of these independents out there. Many of them are more difficult to purchase than the bigger watch manufacturers. Dufour only makes 6 pcs a year and they all ended up under the pillow of Claude. Voutilainen, Rexhepi, Roger W Smith and upcoming ones like Petermann Bedat, Vincent Deprez and Sylvain Pinaud make only 3 to 50 pcs a year.

I have very recent experience of attempting to buy from them and guess what - they are either impossible or way more difficult to buy than the Nautilus of which I have a few. I tried calling the founders directly, established communication early into their career, offered to pay 100% deposit for a 300k watch and yet I could not buy it. It is so incredibly frustrating. And many of them are priced to the nines if you managed to get an allocation.

I have no experience in buying a Lange but they have very impressive complications, finishing and aesthetics. They don't make that many annually and their watches are desirable. Their most recent Zeitwerk has 32 inward angles on the Remontoir bridge alone and it is finished to a higher degree than many independents in the market. 30% deposit and 1-year wait for their non-limited watches is reasonable in my view.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Depends gronefeld takes like 1/3 deposit, Journe takes nothing. Some brands want payment in full others take a nominal amount like $1,000.

+1

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[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by llngoc

My MB&F AD actually went to Geneva to get an allocation for me as the reference was over subscribed. (At least I did not have to go )

Well played. Well played. That, my friend, is a VIP treatment.



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[llngoc]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

Well played. Well played. That, my friend, is a VIP treatment.



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With that said. My AD is only a few hours from Geneva but I am still very grateful of his dedication. I was more surprised that I actually expressed my interest before the watch was announced and I was still being put on the watchlist. Especially this is not my first MB&F purchase. It was quite a cliffhanger.

[DonLee]

I really don't understand the Richmont group doing this... The VC 222 was announced at the beginning of the year, but none of them got to client hands until many months later, and by then, the hype train had gone. Why do they show you a great watch and then have nothing for months on end?

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by DonLee

I really don't understand the Richmont group doing this... The VC 222 was announced at the beginning of the year, but none of them got to client hands until many months later, and by then, the hype train had gone. Why do they show you a great watch and then have nothing for months on end?

Agree. I asked for it and nothing happened until now. And the train has moved on and I just declined it.

[ILoveFerrari]

Originally Posted by DonLee

I really don't understand the Richmont group doing this... The VC 222 was announced at the beginning of the year, but none of them got to client hands until many months later, and by then, the hype train had gone. Why do they show you a great watch and then have nothing for months on end?

as far as I know, hype around 222 is not gone at all. Try to get onto the list if you have not tried yet, then you'd know what I mean. But of course if the yellow gold 222 does not flow your boat, that is a different story.

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[DonLee]

Originally Posted by ilovegt

as far as I know, hype around 222 is not gone at all. Try to get onto the list if you have not tried yet, then you'd know what I mean. But of course if the yellow gold 222 does not flow your boat, that is a different story.

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Oh I've been on the list for nearly a year now, definitely was gonna get one. Now, I don't know anymore.