14060M (3130) +5s/day right after being serviced

[TomWambsgans]

Just got my beloved Sub back from service and it's still running about five seconds fast. I am not terribly bothered by this but thought I'd ask: Is this reasonable performance for this model? I can't seem to find an authoritative 3130 spec online.

It's a 2004 14060M.

Any advice appreciated.


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[Dan S]

A single measurement means nothing. Measure the timing in 5 positions fully wound and after 24 hours, and get back to us.

[TomWambsgans]

ACK'd; thanks!

Also: What constitutes fully wound?


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[0nly5iv3Digits]

Watches take a while to settle after being "disturbed" vis a vis a service. Wear it daily for the next month. It should improve as the lubricants distribute throughout the movement.

I find that it can take 6-8 weeks to "fully" settle down.

I know it's annoying, it just takes time.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by 0nly5iv3Digits

Watches take a while to settle after being "disturbed" vis a vis a service. Wear it daily for the next month. It should improve as the lubricants distribute throughout the movement.

I find that it can take 6-8 weeks to "fully" settle down.

I know it's annoying, it just takes time.

Is this a common fallacy?

How could a RSC make any timing adjustments after a service?

They don’t wait 6-8 weeks for the movement to fully settle down.

I have had my ‘K’ 14060M serviced by the Melbourne RSC on two occasions and it came back running better than +1.0s/d each time and still does after 2.5 years.

I can correct the gain by setting it 6 down overnight.

[geoach]

Originally Posted by Andad

Is this a common fallacy?

How could a RSC make any timing adjustments after a service?

They don’t wait 6-8 weeks for the movement to fully settle down.

I have had my ‘K’ 14060M serviced by the Melbourne RSC on two occasions and it came back running better than +1.0s/d each time and still does after 2.5 years.

I can correct the gain by setting it 6 down overnight.

movement needs to settle down

[Swearengen]

The spec for your watch when new was -4 - +6 seconds a day so it would seem you are within tolerance. Better to be a bit fast than slow

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

The spec for your watch when new was -4 - +6 seconds a day so it would seem you are within tolerance. Better to be a bit fast than slow

I didn’t think my 14060 was originally specified as -4-+6?

[TuRo]

I've found a topic on TRF that I personally find totally inconsequential...... to me it's like debating the mpg on a 512BB !

[Swearengen]

If it's a 14060M I believe it's chronometer spec. The M is for modified

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[Swearengen]

Originally Posted by TuRo

I've found a topic on TRF that I personally find totally inconsequential...... to me it's like debating the mpg on a 512BB !

Better or worse than a 512TR?

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[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

If it's a 14060M I believe it's chronometer spec. The M is for modified

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Most of the modifed 14060M Subs were in fact two-line, non-chronometer watches. The four-liner SCOC models were for the last few years of the 14060M production.

[offrdmania]

Are we arguing over +5 seconds?
I would care more if the amplitude or beat error were out of spec and not a measly +5 seconds which is within spec.

[TuRo]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

Better or worse than a 512TR?

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You're incorrigible....

[R.W.T.]

First of all, did you wind the watch by hand to start?

If you didn't it is meaningless. Rolex has a card that they used to put in the service box stating that you have to wind the watch by hand to start. The automatic mechanism on a watch was not meant for our convenience but to keep constant mainspring tension to alleviate the difference in the degree of swing in the balance (amplitude) causing time variation through the day, as mainspring tension decreased, and the need for compensating the "see saw" effect of that in regulating the watch.

So...if your watch is not fully wound by hand to start, and you are not terribly active it will be running fast. Even if you are terribly active it would take some time to achieve a full wind.

That being said, +5 is in spec for the watch. Rolex uses machines for final test and they also use Delta formula for timing. If it falls in spec it ships. Some inherently run closer than others. They don't have time to wear every watch on a wrist. They are using the tools that best suit their needs to service the watch to spec. Your watch is in spec. You could go in person and have them adjust it.

In a perfect world a slight turn of 2 or 4 of the balance adjusting screws with a micro stella tool would bring it in. My experience is that all is not what it seems when one goes to do this...the larger screws are 2 seconds per notch on the tool and the small ones are 1 second. That doesn't always ring true.
3130 is a very accurate movement. You COULD get it closer with some work.

I remember getting a 1570 equipped 1665 back from Geneva Service. It was actually out of spec. + 15 seconds on the wrist. I was surprised. I had my local CRW, who later taught me watch repair, adjust it down. He brought it within 5 seconds. I wasn't that pleased but it was one pass. I was going to Paris and thought well, I'll just stop by the RSC there in Parc Monceau and have them bring it to zero. I was terribly naive at that time and had not worked on a watch yet. I did understand the theory of micro stella adjustments and thought if I told them exactly how much it was gaining they could adjust it exactly that much and everything would be perfect.
I walked in, and even though I didn't speak French and they were not used to English they were very cordial. Lovely experience over all.

I had my warranty in hand. The receptionist took the watch back to the watchmaker in charge. He came out...and in a what now seems almost comical exchange, he looked at me with a raised eyebrow and in heavy French accent he inquired, 5 seconds???????????
(read you can't be serious hahaha)

He actually did bring it down and it was a crazy accurate watch. It did gain but like maybe 1/2 - 1 second per day. Astounding for a 1570 really.

Here is a little addendum. This was for 18,000 bph movements in the 1950s.

The comparatively relative accuracy of a 3130 movement is off the charts compared to this.

[Nikrnic]

Not to worry, if it was slow I'd me more concerned.

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[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by Nikrnic

Not to worry, if it was slow I'd me more concerned.

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I'm just curious as to why?

I get the psychological aspects....but really....

- 5 seconds is EXACTLY the same level of accuracy as + 5. There is no indication that there is anything wrong with a watch that is running slow. It's an adjustment the same as running fast.

Low amplitude, would be a concern.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I'm just curious as to why?

I get the psychological aspects....but really....

- 5 seconds is EXACTLY the same level of accuracy as + 5. There is no indication that there is anything wrong with a watch that is running slow. It's an adjustment the same as running fast.

Low amplitude, would be a concern.

No one said there was anything wrong.

If it runs fast 5 s/d you can hack it every few days and restart it on time.
If it runs slow you could have more to do?

The automatic mechanism on a watch was not meant for our convenience but to keep constant mainspring tension

The auto winding mechanism doesn't just keep constant mainspring tension, it will wind the mainspring to full power.
My Rolex watches do this on a work day.

I have seldom wound an auto watch to full power before wearing, only a few turns to start it before setting.

[Swearengen]

I think the reason some people prefer a watch to run slightly fast is that you simply need to hack the watch to correct the time. If it is running slow you will need to adjust the minute hand too

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I'm just curious as to why?

I get the psychological aspects....but really....

- 5 seconds is EXACTLY the same level of accuracy as + 5. There is no indication that there is anything wrong with a watch that is running slow. It's an adjustment the same as running fast.

Low amplitude, would be a concern.

[swish77]

Geez, we're debating 5 seconds on a 20-year-old Sub? Totally fine and within spec.

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by Swearengen

I think the reason some people prefer a watch to run slightly fast is that you simply need to hack the watch to correct the time. If it is running slow you will need to adjust the minute hand too

Good point! Won't argue. I think it's psychological as well. If it's losing it seems like it's not doing enough...
I'm still not over it as a watchmaker. I can't send a watch out losing 1 second a day. I'd rather have +5. :-)

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by Andad

No one said there was anything wrong.

If it runs fast 5 s/d you can hack it every few days and restart it on time.
If it runs slow you could have more to do?

The automatic mechanism on a watch was not meant for our convenience but to keep constant mainspring tension

The auto winding mechanism doesn't just keep constant mainspring tension, it will wind the mainspring to full power.
My Rolex watches do this on a work day.

I have seldom wound an auto watch to full power before wearing, only a few turns to start it before setting.

I guess I beg to differ. The reason WHY Wilsdorf wanted the watch to be self winding was to keep the mainspring tension "constant." Perhaps the term is misunderstood but it is more accurate. Full power is constantly degrading. Either the watch escapement is using the power or the bridle in the barrel slips once maximum is reached reducing it to less than full. Regardless, he was striving for accuracy. The watch runs different speeds with different tensions. The more constant the tension the more accurate overall. You can call that FULL power...what ever you like to say...but the initial REASON was accuracy NOT convenience. In the 1930s, wristwatches were still fairly new. Positions were now quite a bit more important to gain overall accuracy. In the pocket watch era you had basically 2 positions that were critical. Pendant Up and Dial Up. In the pocket and on the top of the leg seated. Smaller movements were not as accurate. Wilsdorf was instrumental in pioneering wristwatches and he was out to set records for accuracy. The added convenience of not having to unscrew the crown and wind the watch every day was a bonus.

If you start from scratch, a dead stop...your watch will take QUITE some time to wind to full power.
If you ever work on one, you can see how many revolutions of the that rotor weight it takes to turn the the ratchet wheel enough times to wind that spring to full tension. And as I said, full tension is constantly degrading one way or another. Constant is probably a better concept, though not absolute.

You are free to do what you like...but the recommended process
BY THE MANUFACTURER is to wind the watch fully by hand before starting to wear it. "A minimum of 25 turns is required for adequate partial winding."
To achieve 25 turns of hand winding...the rotor would have to complete...untold full revolutions. you don't even get ONE click of the ratchet wheel with one revolution. Hand winding a turn you get MANY clicks. I'm sure someone out there has the exact number of clicks per revolution. I've never sat and counted it and it would be different for every model movement.

Yes, admittedly the automatic mechanism efficiency is far enhanced these days. The early versions pre 1030 calibre were only 50% efficient. They Freewheel in one direction. The invention of reversing gears allowed the new 1030 mechanism to wind in both directions. Gearing improves each generation. They make it better with each movement upgrade. Also the higher beat movements, higher amplitude and longer mainsprings make the accuracy better even with lower tension...but optimum...you start full wind...and the movement of the wrist keeps it there. The amount that it runs down overnight is brought back to the top fairly easily with normal wear.

Photo and instructions right off of the Rolex website.

[studioal]

This thread is hilarious. It's not uncommon (or bad or wrong) for a newly serviced watch to run a tad fast. Ask your watchmaker.

[0nly5iv3Digits]

Originally Posted by studioal

This forum is hilarious. It's not uncommon (or bad or wrong) for a newly serviced watch to run a tad fast. Ask your watchmaker.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by Andad

Is this a common fallacy?

How could a RSC make any timing adjustments after a service?

They don’t wait 6-8 weeks for the movement to fully settle down.

In my experience, they adjust it, and then I go back to them 3-6 months later and tell them how fast it is and ask them to regulate it to within +1-2s/day.
This has worked great and the adjustment is free. Note, I have only done this with vintage watches (1625, 1675, 1680), my new watches are still to new for a service.

It takes them about a week to regulate it since they need to test according to the procedures. My 1680 is right now about +15s/month.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

I guess I beg to differ. The reason WHY Wilsdorf wanted the watch to be self winding was to keep the mainspring tension "constant." Perhaps the term is misunderstood but it is more accurate. Full power is constantly degrading. Either the watch escapement is using the power or the bridle in the barrel slips once maximum is reached reducing it to less than full. Regardless, he was striving for accuracy. The watch runs different speeds with different tensions. The more constant the tension the more accurate overall. You can call that FULL power...what ever you like to say...but the initial REASON was accuracy NOT convenience. In the 1930s, wristwatches were still fairly new. Positions were now quite a bit more important to gain overall accuracy. In the pocket watch era you had basically 2 positions that were critical. Pendant Up and Dial Up. In the pocket and on the top of the leg seated. Smaller movements were not as accurate. Wilsdorf was instrumental in pioneering wristwatches and he was out to set records for accuracy. The added convenience of not having to unscrew the crown and wind the watch every day was a bonus.

If you start from scratch, a dead stop...your watch will take QUITE some time to wind to full power.
If you ever work on one, you can see how many revolutions of the that rotor weight it takes to turn the the ratchet wheel enough times to wind that spring to full tension. And as I said, full tension is constantly degrading one way or another. Constant is probably a better concept, though not absolute.

You are free to do what you like...but the recommended process
BY THE MANUFACTURER is to wind the watch fully by hand before starting to wear it. "A minimum of 25 turns is required for adequate partial winding."
To achieve 25 turns of hand winding...the rotor would have to complete...untold full revolutions. you don't even get ONE click of the ratchet wheel with one revolution. Hand winding a turn you get MANY clicks. I'm sure someone out there has the exact number of clicks per revolution. I've never sat and counted it and it would be different for every model movement.

Yes, admittedly the automatic mechanism efficiency is far enhanced these days. The early versions pre 1030 calibre were only 50% efficient. They Freewheel in one direction. The invention of reversing gears allowed the new 1030 mechanism to wind in both directions. Gearing improves each generation. They make it better with each movement upgrade. Also the higher beat movements, higher amplitude and longer mainsprings make the accuracy better even with lower tension...but optimum...you start full wind...and the movement of the wrist keeps it there. The amount that it runs down overnight is brought back to the top fairly easily with normal wear.

Photo and instructions right off of the Rolex website.

If my Rolex watch is fully wound in one day it will be around 75% wound the next morning and easily fully wound again by midday and therefore fully wound for most of the day.
The barrel slip at full wind doesn’t reduce the PR to less than full because they will run for >42 - 47 hours when taken it off on a Friday evening depending on the model I am wearing.
My Daytona even longer.

The self winding mechanism does not keep the mainspring ‘constant’ it winds it to full power. Is this your new constant?

Full mainspring power is not constantly degrading while I am wearing my Rolex watches it is held at or constantly increasing to full power.

Why buy an automatic watch if you are going to keep manually winding it?

A longer mainspring has not made some of the recent Rolex movements more accurate imo.

We can only agree to differ.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Fredrik

In my experience, they adjust it, and then I go back to them 3-6 months later and tell them how fast it is and ask them to regulate it to within +1-2s/day.
This has worked great and the adjustment is free. Note, I have only done this with vintage watches (1625, 1675, 1680), my new watches are still to new for a service.

It takes them about a week to regulate it since they need to test according to the procedures. My 1680 is right now about +15s/month.

If everyone did this Rolex wouldn’t have time to make any more watches.

[R.W.T.]

Originally Posted by Andad

If my Rolex watch is fully wound in one day it will be around 75% wound the next morning and easily fully wound again by midday and therefore fully wound for most of the day.
The barrel slip at full wind doesn’t reduce the PR to less than full because they will run for >42 - 47 hours when taken it off on a Friday evening depending on the model I am wearing.
My Daytona even longer.

The self winding mechanism does not keep the mainspring ‘constant’ it winds it to full power. Is this your new constant?

Full mainspring power is not constantly degrading while I am wearing my Rolex watches it is held at or constantly increasing to full power.

Why buy an automatic watch if you are going to keep manually winding it?

A longer mainspring has not made some of the recent Rolex movements more accurate imo.

We can only agree to differ.

Well when you start working on watches and have some inside observational experience...you'll see what I'm talking about. When you are regulating a watch and watching the behavior on the timing machine...you will see...

The point you make about the 75% run down IS ACTUALLY a factor of the length of the mainspring....is it not? If you had a shorter mainspring it would be quite a bit less reserve left in the morning. It would be much closer to a point where the amplitude or lack thereof was affecting the timekeeping...adversely.
The longer mainspring stays at a greater tension, longer.
That helps the accuracy.

IF THE WATCH IS NOT RUNNING. IE. when you first get it back from service (which is what I initially was speaking to in my reply to the OP) or even if it has not been worn in over a day and is still running......you need to wind it fully by hand. It says so RIGHT ON THE ROLEX WEBSITE. One would think they know about their own product?

Bridle slippage at full wind WILL most definitely affect the amplitude. The older the watch the more it will affect it. You can drop EASILY 30 degrees from top of wind after the slip on an 18,000 bph movement like a 1030. 20 on a 1570. Agreed it won't affect the accuracy of the faster beat, more current movements, as much. This is largely due to the overall accuracy of said movements because of the higher beat, finer gearing, better balance, the longer mainspring and other improvements in those movements.

I never said you needed to wind the watch after it's been worn normally without stopping. Obviously it's an automatic watch and obviously if it is worn regularly without stopping it will not need to be hand wound AT ALL..once you wind it fully to start.

BUT YOU START with a full hand wind.

Still, I maintain, the original reason for the automatic watch was to keep a more constant tension on the mainspring for accuracy. You also have to realize that when the autowind was first perfected by Wilsdorf and Borer, they were dealing with 18000 bph movements, with small barrels, far less PR. Everything about those early movements 1st the 8 3/4 ligne then the 9 3/4 ligne and later the 10 1/2 ligne was far less evolved than what we are talking about today. But in principle it still is a factor.

"Full mainspring power is not constantly degrading while I am wearing my Rolex watches it is held at or constantly increasing to full power."

Hmm...sounds like constant power creating a higher level of accuracy but I digress...

That is terribly subjective, depending on what kind of activity one is engaged in. If you are constantly moving yes. If you sit around in your recliner all day watching TV no. You may not be creating as much power in the spring as it is using. The man who taught me watchmaking (Certified Rolex Watchmaker) used to have to tell his older clientele to move the watch to the right wrist in order to get enough motion to keep it wound. Granted, these were 15xx movements primarily...but still it was a factor.

Whatever. Rolex reminds clients to initially wind their watches, when stopped or when not worn for over a day, by hand.

Being that the gentleman had just received it from service, possibly in the mail, I thought it might be a factor in his accuracy.

I tell my customers to wind the watch fully when they receive it in shipping from me before they wear it to ensure the highest possible level of accuracy and recommend they also do so if they don't wear the watch for over a day. I have had several people NOT LISTEN to that advice and complain that the watch just serviced wasn't keeping good time. When asked if they wound it by hand when they got it...the answer was no. They wind them by hand and then wear them normally and usually I never hear back from them.

[Andad]

I stated it would be 75% wound next day not 75% run down?

I can hear the bridle slipping at full wind but I don’t believe it is noticeably reducing the PR.

At 76 but still working in my engineering business full time I am probably more active than some.

I have had no timing issues just giving auto watches a few turns to start them before wearing.

[R.W.T.]

[QUOTE=Andad;13336501]I stated it would be 75% wound next day not 75% run down?

Yes, sorry that is what I meant to say, also. .